(2)Drain
Dec 30 2009, 4:15 pm
By: Excalibur  

Dec 30 2009, 4:15 pm Excalibur Post #1

The sword and the faith

Here's the concept I've been working on lately:


See how bad the execution is? Wasted space, things being too large, ect. This is what I mean when I say bad execution. A map can have a great concept but if you can't properly map that concept, it means you need to work on your execution. This is probably my worst area in melee mapping, I'm just not that good at it. Keep in mind, this is the third try thus far to remake this map properly. I may go to six or seven before I say 'this is the best I can do' and this is why your first try attempts that you post here just don't cut it. A melee map can take just as much time, planning, and work to make as a UMS. For every trigger on a UMS there is another element of balance we need to consider. This is why melee mapping is not just resources and a start location slapped on a map.

Obviously I haven't doodaded this yet, because I'll be remaking it again, and though I've said this, people will come in here and be like OH HEY EX WHERE ARE THE DOODADS LOL. v.v

Attachments:
(2)Drain(n).scm
Hits: 0 Size: 99.75kb




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The sword and the faith.

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Dec 30 2009, 5:00 pm Super Duper Post #2



...Whats the concept...
Now, regarding the map.
What is the point of the high ground chunks at the sides at 4 o clock and 8 o clock? It seems very imbalanced because T can just camp tanks up there and block off that route. Either remove that, or add another ramp to it.
I know you said you havnt doodaded, but the mains look so bland.
You should move the nat lower so mining workers and the mineral fields dont get in the way of moving forces.
It wouldnt be a bad idea of adding an island in the top left and bottom right, it doesnt look like you have enough room, though.
The center expansions can easily be tanked.
Finally, I think the bottom left and top right expos are too close, instantly favoring Z.

HEY EX U HAV NO D00D4DS T.T \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\( \:\-\(



None.

Dec 30 2009, 5:11 pm Excalibur Post #3

The sword and the faith

The highground is there because you can block those two passages completely. Look at how the rocky leaves that space right there. There was a pro map, medusa I think, that had a similar thing for a natural backdoor. A single rax or two pylons makes the path completely blocked, I think its even ling-tight.

The nats are exactly how I want them, that's part of the concept.

There isn't room, and there is no need for more expos.

That's intentional. The tankability makes them a risk, you need map control to take them. \:P

Good. Because all the tankability helps T anyway. \:P




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The sword and the faith.

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Dec 30 2009, 6:02 pm Super Duper Post #4



I was talking about these :bleh:


PvZ, the zerg can easily take the third early on and sunken it. GG for P. The zerg can then do the same thing for the other expansion that requires you kill the temples.



None.

Dec 30 2009, 6:07 pm Excalibur Post #5

The sword and the faith

I know, those are there because the passage near them can be blocked. The ramp is on that side so it can either be better held or taken down. That's exactly what I was talking about.
Quote from Me
The highground is there because you can block those two passages completely. Look at how the rocky leaves that space right there. There was a pro map, medusa I think, that had a similar thing for a natural backdoor. A single rax or two pylons makes the path completely blocked, I think its even ling-tight.
And P and T can block it, Z can't unless they're going to waste 300$ on a hatch for it which is a dumb idea anyway. :P




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
-------------------------
The sword and the faith.

:ex:
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Dec 31 2009, 12:58 am Marine Post #6



No offense, but this is the worst map I've seen of you Excalibur.. D:
Is this salvagable? You say it is... but all that space... You don't really have that much here you can do to make this look nicer. It's not linear at all, it looks fine, but it's so... I don't know how to explain it. It's great but I really dislike it entirely. The shape I guess. No concept that I see but heh, what do I know, right?

I was expecting more lambs to be in order on this one, man.

What are you expecting to be doing with this?

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 31 2009, 1:04 am by Marine.



None.

Dec 31 2009, 2:04 am Super Duper Post #7



Quote from Marine
No offense, but this is the worst map I've seen of you Excalibur.. D:
Is this salvagable? You say it is... but all that space... You don't really have that much here you can do to make this look nicer. It's not linear at all, it looks fine, but it's so... I don't know how to explain it. It's great but I really dislike it entirely. The shape I guess. No concept that I see but heh, what do I know, right?

I was expecting more lambs to be in order on this one, man.

What are you expecting to be doing with this?
I was going to say that originally, its just that I didnt wanna be harsh or anything.
Besides I dont like saying "I dont like this, no reason at all."



None.

Dec 31 2009, 2:06 am Excalibur Post #8

The sword and the faith

I understand that the concept is hard to understand. If you've seen BWMN maps, you'll see the elements I'm trying to incorporate. My execution is just that bad. Its my weakest point. Even my P balance is better than my execution, which is saying something. :P

Anyway this is just to show what I've been working on and to re-affirm my point that real melee maps that have real effort in them are remade and resized at least several times before they become remotely good. :P

Updated version will be available whenever I get to it.




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
-------------------------
The sword and the faith.

:ex:
Sector 12
My stream, live PC building and tech discussion.

Dec 31 2009, 2:07 am Marine Post #9



There's nothing there, I'm sure once he puts doodads it'll look better but the shape is like a big blob. I dislike blob shapes in maps. Especially after seeing all those pro maps with the intriquite designs and very sharp detail to their maps. This is so bland D: Make a design somewhere excalibur, that'd make it look much better.

EDIT: and I know you said you don't have doodads.

Lol, "whenever I get to it" sounds funny coming from you :D



None.

Dec 31 2009, 4:08 am Pr0nogo Post #10





Doodad in the middle where the blue boxes are.
Expand mains as noted.
Compact bridges, fill up area with impassible terrain.
Elongate middle ramps.
The red circles on bits of ramp on the top-mid and bottom-mid are showing you blocks. Blocks suck, get rid of them.
On your passageways that are 'easily blocked,' copy the weird doodad-esque shit that's on the small pieces of the high ground and paste them to the other side to prevent structures from being built there as well.
Remove second Temple, is unnecessary.
Remove random passage blockways at the expoes.
Move thirds (or fourths, whatever they are) to the other cliffside and be sure to doodad like I said to prevent tank drops.
Get rid of random water in the corners with impassible dirt to make the map look better or something.
High grass looks ugly, although this isn't your fault, it's Blizzard's. just saying.




Dec 31 2009, 4:30 am Super Duper Post #11



He didnt finish doodads.
The mains are fine.
T > Compact bridges
No, he should keep the 2nd temple.
Random passage blockways only allow small units to pass by, big units gotta use the ramps.
Whats the difference between water and high dirt? Its perfectly fine.



None.

Dec 31 2009, 5:07 am Pr0nogo Post #12



Doodads need to be placed if he moves the expoes like I told him. I wasn't referring to the entire map when I said 'doodad,' which is why I denoted the exact place I was talking about both in the text and in the image.
He mentioned a large waste of space. I'm pretty sure we can both see that expanding the mains and adding high dirt/low dirt/whatever makes up for that in some way.
The bridges are too wide, period. They need to be shrunken in some way, if only by a few tiles.
2nd temple is unnecessary if he did what I think he did and stacked them. Just remove both stacks and restack one set in the middle of the bridge.
Now that the expoes are harder to defend, it makes sense to easily be able to reinforce your base with tanks/archons/whatever.




Dec 31 2009, 3:45 pm Super Duper Post #13



Quote from name:Pronogo
Doodads need to be placed if he moves the expoes like I told him. I wasn't referring to the entire map when I said 'doodad,' which is why I denoted the exact place I was talking about both in the text and in the image.
1.He mentioned a large waste of space. I'm pretty sure we can both see that expanding the mains and adding high dirt/low dirt/whatever makes up for that in some way.
2.The bridges are too wide, period. They need to be shrunken in some way, if only by a few tiles.
3.2nd temple is unnecessary if he did what I think he did and stacked them. Just remove both stacks and restack one set in the middle of the bridge.
Now that the expoes are harder to defend, it makes sense to easily be able to reinforce your base with tanks/archons/whatever.
1. No, the mains are perfectly sized. If he makes them any bigger, the mains will just be uncomfortable.
2. Why do they NEED to be shrunken down?
3. Whats the difference?



None.

Dec 31 2009, 4:03 pm Symmetry Post #14

Dungeon Master

The second temple is to make it more difficult for splash units (tanks, lurkers) to get through. They also serve to make it more difficult to scout the other side of it. Look at a map like HBR where you see Ps often building pylons by the temples to scout - that's made less viable by the presence of the second temple.



:voy: :jaff: :voy: :jaff:

Dec 31 2009, 4:35 pm Super Duper Post #15



Quote from Symmetry
The second temple is to make it more difficult for splash units (tanks, lurkers) to get through. They also serve to make it more difficult to scout the other side of it. Look at a map like HBR where you see Ps often building pylons by the temples to scout - that's made less viable by the presence of the second temple.
It would be good if splash units cant get through that easily.
Eh, you can still build the pylon at the third anyways. Its probably fine as it is and doesnt amount to much.



None.

Dec 31 2009, 8:46 pm Symmetry Post #16

Dungeon Master

Quote from name:Ciara
Quote from Symmetry
The second temple is to make it more difficult for splash units (tanks, lurkers) to get through. They also serve to make it more difficult to scout the other side of it. Look at a map like HBR where you see Ps often building pylons by the temples to scout - that's made less viable by the presence of the second temple.
It would be good if splash units cant get through that easily.
Eh, you can still build the pylon at the third anyways. Its probably fine as it is and doesnt amount to much.

That's the point - I was merely pointing out the function of the extra temple, not saying it was bad. Pronogo didn't seem to understand the purpose of them.



:voy: :jaff: :voy: :jaff:

Dec 31 2009, 9:39 pm Excalibur Post #17

The sword and the faith

Quote from name:Pronogo


Doodad in the middle where the blue boxes are.
Expand mains as noted.
Compact bridges, fill up area with impassible terrain.
Elongate middle ramps.
The red circles on bits of ramp on the top-mid and bottom-mid are showing you blocks. Blocks suck, get rid of them.
On your passageways that are 'easily blocked,' copy the weird doodad-esque shit that's on the small pieces of the high ground and paste them to the other side to prevent structures from being built there as well.
Remove second Temple, is unnecessary.
Remove random passage blockways at the expoes.
Move thirds (or fourths, whatever they are) to the other cliffside and be sure to doodad like I said to prevent tank drops.
Get rid of random water in the corners with impassible dirt to make the map look better or something.
High grass looks ugly, although this isn't your fault, it's Blizzard's. just saying.
All bad suggestions, good try though. You understand nothing about this map. You have fuck all idea of what you're talking about, and if you'll note here:
http://www.staredit.net/topic/5150/
Quote from THE STICKY
1. Do I know what I am talking about?
-If you have no idea how to make a balanced melee yourself, you really don't have much business trying to tell someone else how to do it. Rather than give bad advice that will only hurt, it's better to be silent and let someone else do the job. If you aren't sure, say so, not everyone's an expert, but if you aren't, do not claim to be.

Breaking section rules can get you in a lot of trouble, I suggest you think before you post.




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
-------------------------
The sword and the faith.

:ex:
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Dec 31 2009, 9:46 pm Marine Post #18



he can't "get anyone to read a fucking sticky" (- Excalibur's Video Guide) :D

I hope you understand what I said and you don't think I had fuck all idea of what I was talking about D:

<3 :(

When are you going to update the pic?



None.

Dec 31 2009, 11:02 pm Excalibur Post #19

The sword and the faith

When I get to updating the map. :P




SEN Global Moderator and Resident Zealot
-------------------------
The sword and the faith.

:ex:
Sector 12
My stream, live PC building and tech discussion.

Dec 31 2009, 11:04 pm Marine Post #20



Make it hap'n cap'n. You need to start feeling like making it now, you've made your point about how long it takes.



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