You wouldn't need much to counter dts and sairs if you knew they were coming. All you need to do is protect your ovies and keep a good macro pace. Sairs//dts can be a very effective strategy on maps like fastest possible, or against melee noobs, but once the players during melee start getting a little skillful, all in sort of rush-ish strategies, or strategies that depend on an enemy tech weakness, become less effective.

Thats exactly why I said it takes precise timing. The strategy has been a winning strategy for Bisu on many occasions, which had real precise timing- awesome micro along with incredible multitasking. It's a real viable strategy.
Because if you're a bit too late, or a bit too early- either one of it would cripple the protoss in some way or another. Being late could cause suspicion in Z, which would result in ovie speed upgrade before the P can get hands on enough sairs to do any good. Or too early, could result in economic deficit while the zerg already has a few hydras up which prevents any real damage.
But if you get the timing just right, you could deal some serious damage to an unsuspecting Z.

if ur gonna use dts against zerg i suggest u use them to attack an expo than just coming up or do a dt drop with 1 or 2 dts on the main to snipe as many drones as u can. But dts arent that great vs z in most situations because most good z players have ovys everywhere... Personally i stick to using 2-4 sairs to snipe the unsuspecting ovy early game, about 15 minutes into the game i quit sairs and go for mass zlots/goons + a few hts. If zerg goes for alot of lurkers add more goons/archons in your build, if they go mass ultra-ling then u need substantially more zlots than goons and hts are a must vs zerg. Once u get the hang of pvz u should try using a DA or 2 they really help if u have a can micro them well. I tried DAs once or twice to feedback defilers and/or mael + storm, and it annoyed the hell out of my opponent. In the end storm is better than/feedback/mael but its fun to use DA sometimes

Here's my advice from a C- Zerg,

1. Before you start doing cute builds like sair/dt, you should learn to play standard. Learning to play standard is 10x harder than sair/dt, but you really need to do so. Ultimately if your goal is just to win some games, sair/dt will do that for you. If you want to get better though, learn to play standard.

I once played a tournament bo5. This guy was a C/C+, theoretically better than me. Every single game he went sair/reaver. He beat me the first game, and then I walked over him the other three because he didn't know any other play style and sair/reaver.

2. It's hard for me to just tell you how to play better without a replay or a direct question besides saying obvious things like macro/micro better heh.

If you plan on fe, make sure you know the build orders against zerg opening. If they go hatchery first, build nexus, overpool depending on the map can be either nexus or cannons after forge.

Scouting is essential always. You need to know what to prepare for and what they are not prepared for. As you get better, your intuition will get better (duh?). For instance, I know that during a +1 speedlot attack, there is an 80% chance the protoss are expanding. Saying I defend properly, the first thing I do is head toward the protoss's third and hope to take it out.

3. ????

4. Profit

In case you don't know about these, check them out.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Main_Page (Build order/strategy basics)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581 (Theory)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 12 2009, 11:21 pm by ejac1337.

I scout very well. All I need to know is this:

What unit counters a hydra?
What unit counters a lurker?
What unit counters an ultralisk?

Finally, how do I expand and not let my expansion die?
I cant even believe I am asking these questions. I am a C+ in iCCuP and I haft to ask these questions .

Hydra - Mass speedlots+storm, nothing rapes hydra more than a well placed storm; zlots do a good job at taking hydras out themselves. Basically you throw mass speedlots at the hydras, now your opponent will most likely micro his hydras away from your zlots to prevent being sliced by dual light-sabers, then you basically have to storm behind the hydras so they retreat into the storm and get fried. When you see hydras running storm their escape route, dont storm on hydras. Archons mixed in with zlots do a good job also.

Lurkers - If zerg go for a lurker heavy army that means they probably arent heavy on anything other than lings since lurks consume so much gas. Your best bet is to mix more goons and archons in your army as they rape lurks very nicely. Storm is also extremely helpful(storm>zerg). Oh yea and bring plenty of observers as well, bring an extra or 2 incase they get sniped(this pisses me off)

Ultra - Your only hope against these beasts is probably massing zealots and mixing a few archons in with your army. 4-1 is probably a good ratio for zlots to ultra

reavers will also help against all 3 of these units, but i dislike reavers since they require so much attention.

Storm, zlots, reaver (at least storm and zlots) > hydra
Storm, reaver > lurker
Archon//zealot > ling//lurker

Expand at the right time; when your opponent expands, or when you have map control. Just as one more note: try to keep pressure on the zerg from early on. An attack of 2 zealots and three dragoons will be enough to keep the z from pumping drones -if you reinforce your harass units with more goons and more goons, like in the 5 gate goon build.

Have you been reading things like this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_vs._Zerg_Guide ?

Jesus christ. ARCHONS AND ZEALOTS AGAINST LINGS AND ULTRAS. Have you even fucking thought that they wouldn't bring along DEFILERS for jesus christ's sake. And ultralings w/ defilers rape just zlots and archons.

Hydras are countered by almost anything- from dragoon to zealot. But if Z goes full hydras, that won't be enough as they'll be upgrading and massing faster than you can. You absolutely need HTs, and a shuttle full of reaver if you have em- and confident enough so you won't lose them either. But HTs are a must no matter what after a certain point of game.
If Z goes lurkers, I expect they'll go ling ultra def with some lurks. Upgrade, get reavers and don't get choked in- or you'll lose. Use some DTs to scout out some expos, and when you get through with lurks, you should have some sizable army- take out Z with it?

Lurkers can be countered by anything, but most effective is reavers and dragoons, or HTs with storms.
Ultralisks can be countered by dragoons, chons and dts, reavers, and storms.

And uh, not letting your expos die is a matter of having control over the center. You lose control of the center, or atleast parts of that lead to expos- then your expos are in danger- no matter what. And usually, late game requires tons of photons on expos too.

And note that everything changes when defilers come out. Dragoons become really ineffective against anything Zerg, and archons zealots and HT DT reavers become more powerful.

Also, you can't play PvZ with black and white logic where as some unit counters some unit because a P army is substantially stronger with more diversity.

Watch this shiz. Yes, they're ALL PvZ.

Zealots are melee, and archons have splash. What I meant was that archons just plain rape zerglings, and numerous zealots will always win against a few ultras, because of the size ratio; more zealots can be attacking the ultralisks than the ultralisks attacking the zealots. If for some reason you have an archon against zerglings in a swarm, wouldn't there be splash damage anyways?

But she didn't specify defilers now did she? She probably already knew that storms, zealots, possibly dts, and reavers are the best units to use in a dark swarm, because other units miss.

Way to freak out at the straw man.

Uh, I seriously doubt a P army would outnumber Z's. Unless you are playing an idiot, then there wouldn't be the need to ask advice.

You aren't going to want a mass of any other unit besides zealots and archons if you are expecting a wave of ultras and zerglings. This doesn't mean you want only those two types of units, I never said that. Of course you would want storm and reavers, and possibly DT's.

The point is, nobody was talking about defilers and you freaked out about something nobody but you brought up.

And yeah, you are going to be able to build 3-4 zealots per ultralisk in terms of cost.

Don't use zealots against Ultralisks after he gets the Ultralisk armor upgrade as more than a buffer of HP. Assuming he has the other 3 upgrades, too, your zealots are doing 6 damage an attack, or 12 if you have 3 upgrades yourself. Not even close to worth it. Archons+DT+Storm.

Storm > Hydralisks.
Storm + Dragoons > Lurkers.

Anyway there should be a lot of top level foreign games happening soon that you can get live commentary on. There's not many Protosses (for the first time ever...) but there are a ton of Zergs, and you'll see a lot of good games, plus replay packs from qualifiers are required to be posted, so.

Replay packs: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107722

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 14 2009, 3:38 am by FaZ-.

You're still going to need Zealots for fodder. Plus theres no way you're ever going to get sufficient enough gas to make an army sustainable only through DT, chon, and HTs.

The point is, not talking about defilers made me freak out. Why? Because everything changes for P when defilers are in play- and you probably know already how important that is.
Anyways, one ultralisk owns 3-4 zealots. Also, 3-4 zealots per ultralisk isn't really something I'd go with when I'm playing as P. Cost wise? Sure zealots, 300 to 400 minerals. So 200min + 200gas equals 400 minerals! But collecting gas and minerals is a completely different thing, and zerg probably doesn't have anywhere else that 'gas' would go.

Why'd I miss this? I seeeeriously doubt with the questions she's asking, she would know about that alright.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 14 2009, 8:17 am by BeDazed.

Considering she's C+, I think she's probably a bit better than anyone here. If you want more specific advice, post reps at teamliquid.

Thanks for the help everyone . I also learned my map control was horrible and needed to expand more.
im probably going to go join TL

I was watching some reps from a guy in TL, he was pretty dang good. I want to melee with you sometime