Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 UMS Mapmaking Assistance > Topic: Why does it crash? (1.16.1)
Why does it crash? (1.16.1)
Sep 20 2009, 12:25 am
By: Heinermann
Pages: < 1 6 7 8
 

Aug 6 2015, 3:29 am O)FaRTy1billion[MM] Post #141

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Something to do with drawing minimap boxes? I can dig further ...

UnitNode[1367] (I don't know what ID that is ... 331? 332? 330-something?) ... Apparently it's sprite pointer is NULL?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 6 2015, 3:35 am by FaRTy1billion.



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Aug 6 2015, 3:33 am outlawpoet2 Post #142



Thanks so much! Another from the same map in case they're related:

PROGRAM VERSION: 1.16.1.1
COMPUTER NAME: 강태욱
USER NAME: 건욱
TIME: 08/06/15 11:27:17.396
INFO:

Exception code: C0000005 ACCESS_VIOLATION
Fault address: 0041F581 01:0001E581 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe

Registers:
EAX:00000000
EBX:00000000
ECX:0041C290
EDX:00000000
ESI:00000000
EDI:751C8290
CS:EIP:0023:0041F581
SS:ESP:002B:0018FCBC EBP:0018FD38
DS:002B ES:002B FS:0053 GS:002B
Flags:00210246
Call stack:
Address Frame Logical addr Module
0041F581 0018FD38 0001:0001E581 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
0041FF8E 0018FD5C 0001:0001EF8E C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
00420206 0018FD7C 0001:0001F206 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
004203F0 0018FD94 0001:0001F3F0 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
0048CFE6 0018FDB0 0001:0008BFE6 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
004BD619 0018FDC0 0001:000BC619 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
0041E3A3 0018FDF0 0001:0001D3A3 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
0041CB28 0018FE08 0001:0001BB28 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
004D9938 0018FE1C 0001:000D8938 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
004D9A6F 0018FE2C 0001:000D8A6F C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
004E07FA 0018FE4C 0001:000DF7FA C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
004E0B20 0018FE58 0001:000DFB20 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
00404DA5 0018FF80 0001:00003DA5 C:\Users\건욱\Documents\StarCraft\StarCraft.exe
757A7C04 0018FF94 0001:00007C04 C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\KERNEL32.DLL
7779AD1F 0018FFDC 0001:00059D1F C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll
7779ACEA 0018FFEC 0001:00059CEA C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll

Stack bytes:
0x0018fcbc: 1a e0 d0 02 9e 97 3d 04 61 0b 64 00 c4 c8 03 15 ......=.a.d.....
0x0018fccc: 6b 00 10 85 00 00 00 00 f0 00 00 00 40 01 00 00 k...........@...
0x0018fcdc: 51 c0 25 01 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 08 fe 18 00 Q.%.............
0x0018fcec: 91 5f 48 00 fc fd 18 00 00 fe 18 00 d4 5f 48 00 ._H.........._H.
0x0018fcfc: 00 00 b8 43 00 00 00 42 2c fd 18 00 90 c2 41 00 ...C...B,.....A.
0x0018fd0c: fc 22 fa 0a 1c fd 18 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ."..............
0x0018fd1c: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0c 00 00 00 0c 00 00 00 ................
0x0018fd2c: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 b1 e2 00 04 5c fd 18 00 ............\...
0x0018fd3c: 8e ff 41 00 1a e0 d0 02 c2 00 00 00 0a 00 00 00 ..A.............
0x0018fd4c: 60 0b 64 00 00 00 00 00 60 0b 64 00 00 00 00 00 `.d.....`.d.....
0x0018fd5c: 7c fd 18 00 06 02 42 00 61 0b 64 00 82 0b 64 00 |.....B.a.d...d.
0x0018fd6c: 60 0b 64 00 0a 00 00 00 c0 00 00 00 82 0b 64 00 `.d...........d.
0x0018fd7c: 94 fd 18 00 f0 03 42 00 90 fd 18 00 c0 00 00 00 ......B.........
0x0018fd8c: 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 b0 fd 18 00 e6 cf 48 00 ..............H.
0x0018fd9c: c0 00 00 11 e0 01 00 00 b8 ef 6c 00 00 00 00 00 ..........l.....
0x0018fdac: 06 00 00 00 c0 fd 18 00 19 d6 4b 00 04 00 00 00 ..........K.....
0x0018fdbc: 00 00 00 00 f0 fd 18 00 a3 e3 41 00 00 00 00 00 ..........A.....
0x0018fdcc: e0 fd 18 00 00 00 00 00 f0 00 00 00 40 01 00 00 ............@...
0x0018fddc: 60 f1 fb 74 00 00 00 00 7f 02 df 01 80 02 e0 01 `..t............
0x0018fdec: 32 d7 41 00 08 fe 18 00 28 cb 41 00 00 00 00 00 2.A.....(.A.....
0x0018fdfc: 79 cc 48 00 40 01 00 00 f0 00 00 00 1c fe 18 00 y.H.@...........
0x0018fe0c: 38 99 4d 00 51 c0 25 01 2c fe 18 00 00 00 00 00 8.M.Q.%.,.......
0x0018fe1c: 2c fe 18 00 6f 9a 4d 00 0a 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 ,...o.M.........
0x0018fe2c: 4c fe 18 00 fa 07 4e 00 04 00 00 00 ac 09 4e 00 L.....N.......N.
0x0018fe3c: 60 8f 7a 75 00 00 40 00 00 e0 fd 7f 7c 00 3c 04 `.zu..@.....|.<.
0x0018fe4c: 58 fe 18 00 20 0b 4e 00 00 00 00 00 80 ff 18 00 X... .N.........
0x0018fe5c: a5 4d 40 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 f2 29 8d 00 .M@...@......)..
0x0018fe6c: 01 00 00 00 94 00 00 00 05 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 ................
0x0018fe7c: 28 0a 00 00 02 00 00 00 53 65 72 76 69 63 65 20 (.......Service
0x0018fe8c: 50 61 63 6b 20 33 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 Pack 3..........
0x0018fe9c: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018feac: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018febc: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018fecc: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018fedc: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018feec: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018fefc: 00 00 00 00 39 4c 40 00 21 4c 40 00 21 4c 40 00 ....9L@.!L@.!L@.
0x0018ff0c: 00 e0 fd 7f 44 00 00 00 50 1b 8f 00 d8 63 90 00 ....D...P....c..
0x0018ff1c: c0 47 8d 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .G..............
0x0018ff2c: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018ff3c: 01 04 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0018ff4c: 01 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 d0 5b 10 cc 00 00 00 00 .........[......
0x0018ff5c: 05 00 00 c0 f2 29 8d 00 00 00 00 00 70 fe 18 00 .....)......p...
0x0018ff6c: fc f7 18 00 cc ff 18 00 7c 5d 40 00 f0 e5 4f 00 ........|]@...O.
0x0018ff7c: 00 00 00 00 94 ff 18 00 04 7c 7a 75 00 e0 fd 7f .........|zu....
0x0018ff8c: e0 7b 7a 75 31 15 05 f8 dc ff 18 00 1f ad 79 77 .{zu1.........yw
0x0018ff9c: 00 e0 fd 7f 79 24 08 fa 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ....y$..........
0x0018ffac: 00 e0 fd 7f 03 f8 ff ff 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................

Code bytes:
0x0041f581: 80 3c 1a 00 74 46 8b 3d a8 f4 6c 00 0f bf 3f 8d .<..tF.=..l...?.



None.

Aug 6 2015, 3:35 am outlawpoet2 Post #143



Obviously neither of these codes were in the known fault addresses list, or I wouldn't have posted :(



None.

Aug 6 2015, 3:38 am O)FaRTy1billion[MM] Post #144

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That one is in "writeWindowText 0041F2B0 00000359", but it's a way more complicated function and that's pretty far in so nothing immediately stands out to me (though it looks like more null pointers).


I can look further in a while, but hopefully these help give an idea of where the crash is happening, which might lead to why.



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Aug 6 2015, 3:42 am outlawpoet2 Post #145



What do you do for null pointers? I don't even know what to edit to change that. Forgive my newbness.

There is extended supply on the map (arbiter tribunals, 3 each, max/available), would that cause crashes at these particular fault addresses?

The crashes were happening on a map with only some extended supply (command centers), but more was added for this version.

The other working theory was the map being corrupted by some powerful korean map protection program. I'm actually not the primary mapmaker, just trying to help diagnose.



None.

Aug 6 2015, 4:05 am mecsnt Post #146



Hello! First of all thanks for helping :D

so I'm the primary mapmaker he's talking about, and I am using SMLP 1.1.82. Also tried Shadow Protector(which seems like it causes less crash, maybe just placebo effect) but it still somehow crashes..

also if anything first error dump would be more to focus on (because it seems like the second error was created by someone who constantly had the same error, not 100% sure,, but just in case)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 6 2015, 4:11 am by mecsnt.




Aug 6 2015, 4:34 am outlawpoet2 Post #147



Just a heads up regarding my skill and experience level, so you know what you're dealing with: I've been digging around in old threads just trying to find out what the terms you're using mean. I'm good at gameplay, balance, and trigger editing... this is completely outside the realm of my experience, haha. Like, ANY additional context or elaboration would be helpful.

I can give you the unprotected map if that would help diagnose, too.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 6 2015, 4:47 am by outlawpoet2.



None.

Aug 6 2015, 5:03 am O)FaRTy1billion[MM] Post #148

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The map might help, protected or not.

From what I see, it looks like there is a unit that appears to be an Alexei Stukov (may be Player 5, if I'm reading the stack bytes correctly) with a unit index of 1367 (333 in SCMDraft, I believe) that is broken somehow (no sprite) and is crashing when SC attempts to draw it on the minimap.

Extended units for supply modification could very well be the problem.



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Aug 6 2015, 5:17 am outlawpoet2 Post #149



Wow, thanks dude, that's super helpful. Link to the map that was crashing: http://www.filedropper.com/1950625war9xp, though I'm not sure how that will be helpful as it's protected pretty significantly. I'll private message you an unprotected version, though it has since been edited.



None.

Aug 6 2015, 5:35 am O)FaRTy1billion[MM] Post #150

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It's ok, I can open it.

When does it crash? I can't play it alone so I set all the other players to computer, and it seems to work fine?



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Aug 6 2015, 11:26 am outlawpoet2 Post #151



I tried three different unprotectors/programs on a different version (I think the one I linked above was done with a weaker protector maybe.) and they couldn't even open it; granted, one of them was tinymap which you happened to write. Maybe you have the mythical version of scm draft compiled with ignore protection on. Haha. on edit: yeah, UU2 works on this one just fine. Unprotect the attached mapfile and screenshot it and I'll give you a cookie.

I have never crashed, personally, and setting all players to computer works fine for me too. This bug is frustrating because it seems to require multiple human players to even reproduce. We were lucky to get a crash when we were trying to test it: wDetector blocks the crash dump for some reason.

It happens within the first few minutes or not at all. Like 25% maybe? Frequent enough to warrant a serious inquiry anyway.

Attachments:
[1950]6.25_war[9.7]_P.scx
Hits: 0 Size: 73.06kb

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 6 2015, 11:41 am by outlawpoet2.




Aug 6 2015, 1:08 pm outlawpoet2 Post #152



Running with wdetector, so I don't get the full crash dump. Maybe this is helpful still?

Problem signature:
Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: Starcraft.exe
Application Version: 1.16.1.1
Application Timestamp: 496589ca
Fault Module Name: Starcraft.exe
Fault Module Version: 1.16.1.1
Fault Module Timestamp: 496589ca
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 000a46ef
OS Version: 6.1.7600.2.0.0.256.1
Locale ID: 1042
Additional Information 1: b414
Additional Information 2: b414e7bdbb19bc1cf10ce1e720a7835e
Additional Information 3: 9751
Additional Information 4: 9751137bce2715e6ff417c13230f710b



None.

Aug 6 2015, 1:13 pm mecsnt Post #153



all maps that crash randomly, 2v2 doesnt crash as much, but it does sometimes(although I do think its because 2v2 is usually played by 4 players only).

Seems like # of players effect error rate by a lot, like when me and poet tries to reproduce with 2 people it barely crashes. I think it never did over ~15 times.

however on a full house game it frequently crashes.. 3v4 do have some orange alexei stukov at the beginning but 2v2 doesnt.

So would you suspect the extended supply as a cause of crash? I once used 3 arbiter tribunals at the beginning and now changed to 16 academies (and of course still cvrashes). I mean, I know extended supply doesnt always cause crash on other maps but it does on this map...

So I'm pretty sure I will not get much less crashes If i remove this extended supply but it seems like this can't be the only reason..? maybe some other problem already kinda maybe the map unstable and extended supply just added to it..?

Attachments:
[1950]6.25_war[9.X]_2v2P.scx
Hits: 1 Size: 76.02kb

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 6 2015, 1:39 pm by mecsnt.



None.

Aug 6 2015, 1:56 pm outlawpoet2 Post #154



Nice, I got another crash dump and WITH THE SAME ADDRESS despite the map being different! This is very exciting to me, considering we changed the extended supply building from arbiter tribunal to something else. Now it seems like we have a definite reason for the crash. It did seem to jump players though - in a previous version it was player 6 that was crashing, now it's player 5. Strange.

------------------------------------------------------
PROGRAM VERSION: 1.16.1.1
COMPUTER NAME: DEVIN-PC
USER NAME: Devin
TIME: 08/06/15 09:54:40.550
INFO:

Exception code: C0000005 ACCESS_VIOLATION
Fault address: 004A4855 01:000A3855 D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe

Registers:
EAX:00000045
EBX:00000000
ECX:10031005
EDX:00000000
ESI:005FFA38
EDI:000000BB
CS:EIP:001B:004A4855
SS:ESP:0023:0012FDB4 EBP:0012FDC4
DS:0023 ES:0023 FS:003B GS:0000
Flags:00210246
Call stack:
Address Frame Logical addr Module
004A4855 0012FDC4 0001:000A3855 D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
004A4B23 0012FDDC 0001:000A3B23 D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
004A520A 0012FDEC 0001:000A420A D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
004D96D1 0012FE10 0001:000D86D1 D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
004D9908 0012FE24 0001:000D8908 D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
004D9A6F 0012FE34 0001:000D8A6F D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
004E07FA 0012FE54 0001:000DF7FA D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
004E0B20 0012FE60 0001:000DFB20 D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
00404DA5 0012FF88 0001:00003DA5 D:\Windows.old\Program Files\Starcraft\StarCraft.exe
76AB1174 0012FF94 0001:00050174 C:\Windows\system32\kernel32.dll
76E6B3F5 0012FFD4 0001:0005A3F5 C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll
76E6B3C8 0012FFEC 0001:0005A3C8 C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll

Stack bytes:
0x0012fdb4: 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 07 00 00 00 07 00 00 87 ................
0x0012fdc4: dc fd 12 00 23 4b 4a 00 40 01 00 00 f0 00 00 00 ....#KJ.@.......
0x0012fdd4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ec fd 12 00 0a 52 4a 00 .............RJ.
0x0012fde4: 55 96 4d 00 f8 fd 12 00 10 fe 12 00 d1 96 4d 00 U.M...........M.
0x0012fdf4: 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 98 14 4d 00 00 00 00 00 ..........M.....
0x0012fe04: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 60 ed 7f 00 24 fe 12 00 ........`...$...
0x0012fe14: 08 99 4d 00 90 e5 7f 00 34 fe 12 00 00 00 00 00 ..M.....4.......
0x0012fe24: 34 fe 12 00 6f 9a 4d 00 0a 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 4...o.M.........
0x0012fe34: 54 fe 12 00 fa 07 4e 00 04 00 00 00 ac 09 4e 00 T.....N.......N.
0x0012fe44: d7 28 ab 76 00 00 40 00 00 f0 ff 7f 7c 00 f2 01 .(.v..@.....|...
0x0012fe54: 60 fe 12 00 20 0b 4e 00 00 00 00 00 88 ff 12 00 `... .N.........
0x0012fe64: a5 4d 40 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 37 23 1c 00 .M@...@.....7#..
0x0012fe74: 01 00 00 00 94 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fe84: b0 1d 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fe94: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fea4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012feb4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fec4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fed4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fee4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fef4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012ff04: 00 00 00 00 39 4c 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ....9L@.........
0x0012ff14: 00 f0 ff 7f 44 00 00 00 e0 ff 1f 00 d0 27 20 00 ....D........' .
0x0012ff24: c8 65 1e 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .e..............
0x0012ff34: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012ff44: 01 08 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ................
0x0012ff54: ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012ff64: 05 00 00 c0 37 23 1c 00 00 00 00 00 78 fe 12 00 ....7#......x...
0x0012ff74: c0 f9 12 00 c4 ff 12 00 7c 5d 40 00 f0 e5 4f 00 ........|]@...O.
0x0012ff84: 00 00 00 00 94 ff 12 00 74 11 ab 76 00 f0 ff 7f ........t..v....
0x0012ff94: d4 ff 12 00 f5 b3 e6 76 00 f0 ff 7f 7d 78 ab 76 .......v....}x.v
0x0012ffa4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 f0 ff 7f 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012ffb4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 a0 ff 12 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012ffc4: ff ff ff ff 4d d7 e2 76 31 82 5f 00 00 00 00 00 ....M..v1._.....
0x0012ffd4: ec ff 12 00 c8 b3 e6 76 21 4c 40 00 00 f0 ff 7f .......v!L@.....
0x0012ffe4: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x0012fff4: 21 4c 40 00 00 f0 ff 7f 00 00 00 00 41 63 74 78 !L@.........Actx
0x00130004: 20 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 20 30 00 00 dc 00 00 00 ....... 0......
0x00130014: 00 00 00 00 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 14 00 00 00 .... ...........
0x00130024: 01 00 00 00 07 00 00 00 34 00 00 00 7c 01 00 00 ........4...|...
0x00130034: 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
0x00130044: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 4e ef 26 1a ............N.&.
0x00130054: 98 02 00 00 44 00 00 00 e0 02 00 00 60 02 00 00 ....D.......`...
0x00130064: 00 00 00 00 ba 71 32 f3 40 05 00 00 4a 00 00 00 .....q2.@...J...
0x00130074: 8c 05 00 00 1e 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 5b 49 59 2d ............[IY-
0x00130084: ac 08 00 00 32 00 00 00 e0 08 00 00 00 03 00 00 ....2...........
0x00130094: 00 00 00 00 cd ea ce 32 e0 0b 00 00 42 00 00 00 .......2....B...
0x001300a4: 24 0c 00 00 36 03 00 00 00 00 00 00 c8 5f 50 38 $...6........_P8

Code bytes:
0x004a4855: 0f b6 42 0c 74 06 23 86 e4 00 00 00 33 f8 83 fb ..B.t.#.....3...

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 6 2015, 2:02 pm by outlawpoet2.



None.

Sep 19 2017, 1:39 am mentalmp11 Post #155



I made a quick test map where two of the other players crashed immediately. I deleted the buildings I had placed over top of terrain that I placed using SCMDraft2 and the map worked thereafter.



None.

Nov 30 2017, 6:22 am O)FaRTy1billion[MM] Post #156

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Does the crash list txt file still exist? I get a File Not Found error when I try to access it :(



TinyMap2 - Latest in map compression! ( 7/09/14 - New build! )
EUD Action Enabler - Lightweight EUD/EPD support! (ChaosLauncher/MPQDraft support!)
EUDDB - topic - Help out by adding your EUDs! Or Submit reference files in the References tab!
MapSketch - New image->map generator!
EUDTrig - topic - Quickly and easily convert offsets to EUDs! (extended players supported)
SC2 Map Texture Mask Importer/Exporter - Edit texture placement in an image editor!
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Dec 3 2017, 6:41 pm Heinermann Post #157

SDE, BWAPI owner, hacker.

Re-uploaded to Drive.




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RdeRenato -- xd
[2019-5-22. : 7:40 pm]
Suicidal Insanity -- I can just look at PyMS or something
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