I think you've ignored most of my above post, but I think you've just dealt a death blow to your argument yourself.\
Guatemano - state sponsored. Chechnya - state sponsored. Also, the only 'conflict' about Guatemano was some criticism of the government, and the only 'conflict' about Chechnya was - again - some criticism of the government. Torture itself, I believe, saved many lives within the last twenty years. If, even with this, it causes more conflict than it solves, than this is simply because people were raised condemning torture, as well as because of politics. These are both solvable problems.
But naturally also, because people are sentimental and don't want to see people suffering. Also because of the fact that torture can be highly abused- which arouse conflict. People are wary of things that can be abused, even if it isn't being abused. And theres nothing you can solve about that.
Plus I just don't see changing the historic achievements condemning torture as something 'feasible'. You should understand that not everyone is extremist utilitarian, let alone even being utilitarian.
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Relatively ancient and inactive
I think you've ignored most of my above post, but I think you've just dealt a death blow to your argument yourself.\
What didn't I address?
But naturally also, because people are sentimental and don't want to see people suffering. Also because of the fact that torture can be highly abused- which arouse conflict. People are wary of things that can be abused, even if it isn't being abused. And theres nothing you can solve about that.
People vote Republican. Republicans set up torture in Guatemano. You're obviously incorrect. America is nowhere near unanimous on the subject of torture. A push in the right direction and it can be implemented democratically.
Plus I just don't see the historic achievements condemning torture as something 'feasible'. You should understand that not everyone is extremist utilitarian, let alone even being utilitarian.
I never argued that my ideas were going to be realized any time soon. I argued that if they were, humanity would be better off.
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If you guys are going to be arguing about torture in general, you should probably open a new topic. In the last 6 posts between the two of you none of your ideas have related to the actual topic of this topic, and the idea of torture as a government tool is certainly worthy of its own topic.
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I myself move to allow more lieniance against the homeowner(s). A few years back in a city close to me a a burglar broke into a well respected community member's home and was severly injured when he broke in. He came in through a sky light and fell threw the floorboards. He succesfully sued the homeowner for his flooring not being up to code or something to that affect which resulted in the burgalar's injury.
This completely insane that a person that broke into one's house could sue the home owner. The man should have been able to kill him. Had he not fallen through the floor he could have raped or murdered either one of his children just down the main hall or went through the house like he had won a shopping spree and just taken whatever he wanted.
The man was charged with treaspassing and served a minor sentance and won a big enough lawsuit to pay for his hospital bills and stay.
i can not find a source with exact information though as i don't remember exactly when it occured as it was a few years ago.
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I myself move to allow more lieniance against the homeowner(s). A few years back in a city close to me a a burglar broke into a well respected community member's home and was severly injured when he broke in. He came in through a sky light and fell threw the floorboards. He succesfully sued the homeowner for his flooring not being up to code or something to that affect which resulted in the burgalar's injury.
I completely agree with you. I feel that if someone brakes into your home, they have lost all rights. So if they get hurt its their own fault.
On the note of the student defending himself I feel he had all right to. The robber attacked him (lashed at him) I my self would of swung at him. The robber being a intruder you have no clue what he has on him and what his intent is with you. I would assume as a intruder robbing me that he would either take my life or severely threaten it. So in short I feel the student was justified in his actions.
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seriously, this is confusing me.
a guy breaks into someones house, trips and falls, then can sue the home-owner for having crap flooring?
this is just freaking hilarious...
they never happen to notice that HE BROKE INTO SOMEONES HOUSE.
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We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch
Discussion wise:
Was the student justified in killing the man? Was the amount of force he used excessive or acceptable? Should charges be brought up against him by the police department? Does the criminal's history of crime make a difference here?
Well, he wasn't justified to kill him. You could argue with self defense, but one has also to consider proportionality. The way this scene was described the burglar probably just wanted to knock the student down and flee.
So the amount of force used was indeed excessive.
Bringing up charges because of this is a whole different story because for that it comes down to the student's intentions. And since he struck the burglar only once one can assume it wasn't his intention to kill him, but to injure him to stop him which would have been okay.
The criminal's history doesn't make a difference because the student didn't know it. And even if he did it's not his responsibility to execute a death sentence.
So the amount of force used was indeed excessive.
I don't think the amount of force used was excessive. What would you have done if you faced with a burglar and you had a samurai sword in your house?
Win by luck, lose by skill.
Discussion wise:
Was the student justified in killing the man? Was the amount of force he used excessive or acceptable? Should charges be brought up against him by the police department? Does the criminal's history of crime make a difference here?
Well, he wasn't justified to kill him. You could argue with self defense, but one has also to consider proportionality. The way this scene was described the burglar probably just wanted to knock the student down and flee.
So the amount of force used was indeed excessive.
Bringing up charges because of this is a whole different story because for that it comes down to the student's intentions. And since he struck the burglar only once one can assume it wasn't his intention to kill him, but to injure him to stop him which would have been okay.
The criminal's history doesn't make a difference because the student didn't know it. And even if he did it's not his responsibility to execute a death sentence.
are you telling me if this criminal that broke into your house and came lunging at you your going to decide that he was only knocking you down to flee?? Boy i sure hope you don't have a gun and he rips it from your hands and kills you. It isn't up to the home owner to make a split second decision of what the buglar means to do if he is lunging at you.
If you see a person casually
walking towards you, you are not 100% sure he wont take your weapon away and use it against you. You will most likely deliver a non lethal blow if you can just to make sure that doesn't happen. Even then you may
accidently deliver a lethal blow (depending on the weapon you have).
Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 11 2009, 11:59 pm by killer_sss.
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I believe he was totally justified.
I have a shotgun in my house in case anyone ever tries to break in. Even if they don't run at me, they'll be dead and no one will ever know if they truly attacked me.
The only thing the student did wrong was that he didnt tell the police the guy threatened to kill him.
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We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch
are you telling me if this criminal that broke into your house and came lunging at you your going to decide that he was only knocking you down to flee?? Boy i sure hope you don't have a gun and he rips it from your hands and kills you. It isn't up to the home owner to make a split second decision of what the buglar means to do if he is lunging at you.
What I am saying is that when an unarmed person is trying to attack you, you are not allowed to kill him just for that. (Proportionality!)
In the second paragraph I explained that the student probably "only" wanted to injure him which would have been all right.
So the force he
intended to use was indeed not excessive, but the
effective force (lethal!) was excessive.
I must say I'm shocked about how many of you think it is the proper course of action to kill an intruder. In my opinion killing (e.g. death sentence) is never the right thing to do if there's no imminent danger to life or if there's another way (e.g. fleeing) to come through the situation.
But I guess that's just America.
8.7% of all murders in 1998 occured from robberies.
http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/333_murder_victims_circumstances_and_weapons_used.htmlin 2008 45,572 buglary offenses were made of those offenses 7,367 that is aproximately 16.2% of all bulglaries in 2008.
http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/data_and_statistics_crime_violent.htmlhttp://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/SAC/data_and_statistics_crime_property.htmlneither of these had statistics for how many homeowners were home at the time. regardless this would not really give you an answer to how many times a homeowners actually run into the robber as if you check almost any secruity system page they will tell you 80% of buglaries occur when a homeowner is home.
I must say I'm shocked about how many of you think it is the proper course of action to kill an intruder. In my opinion killing (e.g. death sentence) is never the right thing to do if there's no imminent danger to life or if there's another way (e.g. fleeing) to come through the situation.
But I guess that's just America.
I'm puzzled myself that you don't think intruders intend to kill you if they find you home at the time they go to rob you. Most of the cases when a homeowner surprises the criminal end up with the criminal killing the homeowner because of his split second decision that he doesn't want to leave a witness that can identify that it was him who robbed the place.
When someone breaks into your house they do mean you harm. They are not there to say hi and ask if they can come and take your stuff. If a buglar lunges at me i'm going to assume they mean me harm. I'm not going to stand there and evaluate every last detail while they lunge at me take my weapon away from me and then kill me to avoid leaving a witness.
I agree with you if i have a way to incompacitate them other than killing them i will but i'm also gona have a weapon to kill them if it doesn't work. Stun gun would be my weapon of choice if i have one available.
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When someone breaks into your house they do mean you harm. They are not there to say hi and ask if they can come and take your stuff. If a buglar lunges at me i'm going to assume they mean me harm. I'm not going to stand there and evaluate every last detail while they lunge at me take my weapon away from me and then kill me to avoid leaving a witness.
I agree with you if i have a way to incompacitate them other than killing them i will but i'm also gona have a weapon to kill them if it doesn't work. Stun gun would be my weapon of choice if i have one available.
Actually, if I were holding a samurai sword, and someone were to lunge at me, I would have to think and react very quickly. I already made a post here describing what I said, but it seemed to go rather ignored:
Often during sports, and even times during SC melee, you have to think without words in order to react to a certain situation. This happened very often to me in basketball particularly. What I mean is, at times during these sports I would have to quickly make a decision based on my surroundings, and hope that it was indeed the best decision I could have made.
Here's what would go through my head if I were in this situation, waking up and grabbing my sword: If I were walking out of my room with a samurai sword, knowing that there was an intruder, I would be hoping to have the intruder either run away or freeze and remain frozen until the police came. I would also try to get as close to the intruder as possible, since he may easily be armed with a ranged weapon. If I get close to him, I will come into control.
Now when I come around the corner and the guy is a few feet in front of me, I move towards him and he lunges at me.. I would not expect a man to lunge at me unless the man feels he can overpower or defeat me, as in, why else would the man risk his life if he didn't think he could disarm or kill me? I would immediately slash both out of surprise and fear of what the man might do, and I would slash hard. At such a small instant of time as when a person lunges at you while you have a lethal weapon, you would be thinking he was both aware of the lethality of the weapon and has some sort of reason to lunge at you in the first place, e.g. has a knife, or is attempting to disarm you, etc.
But of course, dead men tell no tales. The college student could have easily been angry beyond all reason, ran up to the guy and slashed as the man raised his arms to his face.
If you are wielding a sword and a man lunges at you, you have to react thinking that he: A) Knows you have a sword; B) Has some sort of goal for lunging at you (overpower you, kill you, disarm you). Why else would a man lunge at you if you were wielding a sword?
But of course, the student might have just ran up to the guy and sliced him out of anger. Either way, dead men tell no tales.
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I don't get what your going at here?
If i hear a noise and discover an intruder i'm going to automatically assume they are dangerous because of his or her disregard for the law. This is the reason i would bring a weapon to defend myself in the first place. I will be on high alert in case he makes a sudden move again for the same reason.
If the buglar does decide to lung at me I will use whatever force i have to incompacitate him. I won't be going through the thought process of why is he lunging at me. I've already assumed hes dangerous and if he gets too near or makes any sudden move, I'll assume he means great harm to me.
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Just gonna bump the dead thread here but I'm all for killing buglars, they are there to cause you harm, mostly its just financial and emotional harm but of course if you do run into them it will probably be physical harm too.
Its all well and good to talk about moral correctness in situations but in those split seconds its extremely simple: kill or be killed. Do you want to die and smile knowing you died morally correct? Or do you wanna cut that motherfucker that is in your home to harm you in one way or another and smile knowing he died morally incorrect.
If I run into thieves I aim to harm them. Humans been killing each other off since the dawn of time, and it ain't stopping unless something worldwide and drastic goes down.
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