TERRAN




Will add PvP and PvZ later on. Good luck!

I think this is a terrible strategy. If you're going to fast expo like that you can build your first pylon at your nat. Then you can nexus, and gate+forge at your nat too. Cannons are optional but with proper micro zealot+probe will usually beat scv+marine.

And you skipped some steps in "early game." Because you never stated to build a nexus, even though most people would probably be able to assume to build one, but this is a guide so you can't leave steps out. Also you never stated when you send out a scouting probe. Early game scouting is key.

If you know your opponent isn't going to rush you can skip the zealots and dragoons so you can tech and make dts a lot faster.

Pure goons and arbiter is bad. Not only it takes a ton of gas but siege tanks will hurt you A LOT. Every PvT you need zealots (unless you're able to finish it with a 2-3 gate goon rush).

The sad thing is this guide is plenty good enough for PvT because it's imba as hell.

Yeah, an FE at 10 isn't really a viable strategy against T. Your dts are going to be so ridiculously late that you won't be able to do anything - if you even survive that long, which you won't. Any type of vulture play will absolutely rape this BO. If you want to do a DT FE v T, your dts have to come out before the nexus.

Check out a much better build order here:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/DT_Fast_Expand_%28vs._Terran%29

That's why you send in one or two zealots as cannon fodder.

AGHGHGHGHHGHH!!!! NO!!! NO!!! NO!!!!

It is quite common nowadays for protoss's to do "2 base arbiter" in TvP. If the protoss does decide to do this strategy, this skip high templars (storm) until they get their third base because unless the terrans blow, you won't have a third base. Research statis, not recall, statis. Ughh... "Build shuttles, drop zealots on tanks". This is a valid strategy, however you are using it at the wrong time. This is what is called a bulldog strategy, and is used during mid game pushes, and is less effective as the game progresses, nevertheless I guess it is an option. Dweb?... what a freaking waste of precious gas. USE statis.

Also, your army composition in a late game protoss army needs to be fairly balanced between goons and zealots. If you are too heavy either way, a tank/vulture army will tear you apart. Same goes with the terran, if they have too few vultures/tanks, just run over them.

Ughh,.. I happen to be a zerg player, so I don't claim to be the biggest expert in TvP stradegy, but I do know the basics, which this guy doesn't.

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So now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'll give my 2cents on some of your guys responses.

"TvP is imba as hell"
Arguably true at lower levels of play. Even at iccup D rank, protoss is thought to be stronger than the other races. Once you get to D+/C- players and above, that is thought not to be the case.

@Thuy
Who the hell uses MnM against protoss? While yes, Marines are cannon fodder, it is irrelevant because MnM are not a viable strategy. Cannons mid-late game are essential at every expansion so vultures don't kill all of your probes, also you can make pylon walls to keep them out.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 17 2009, 5:29 am by ejac1337.

Actually at higher levels of play (arguably at around any level when a player is able to micro marines sufficient enough so that they won't all get killed by one scarab.), MnM tank is often used as a cheese and surprise attack against greedy toss players, such as FEing- or a countermeasure against 'toss cheese'. If you are able to use marines well, a few dragoons and a reaver won't be a problem. (Thats only if you are able to use them well.)
I will not get into the complexity of the build, but is similar to a 2 rack fast tank build against a zerg. But the general idea is that if the toss is rushing reavers (or dts) while producing goons, you will have time for a tank or two with range upgrades- but if the toss only makes one goon and rushes, you won't have time for tanks- just enough for a mnm + stim. But thats usually enough for a single reaver without goons. If a toss loses a reaver around at that time- it is a major setback, and the T either kills off the P or has enough luxury to switch builds and expand while the P cannot. And you can probably determine whether a P is trying to fast tech or not just by taking a look at their core. (If its upgrading range, they will never make their reaver in time to use it effectively. well of course unless their opponent is horrifying.)

Yes... I know that MnM are used as a cheese build. I don't inclue cheese builds when talking about standard play. The typical builds are either 8 rax (early pressure, but not an all in build), bbs (barrack, barrack, then supply depot, equivalent to a 4 pool.) and then the exceedingly rare case when people decide to do a mid game tech switch that you're talking about. The problem is, if the protoss is upgrading range, then this happens (although this was against bbs and not a mid game tech switch), or if he's simply going reavers, gg.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 17 2009, 7:56 pm by ejac1337.

I was generalizing. And mnm is quite effective against toss if used well, just as it is effective against zerg units.
Also if you were talking about general builds of TvP, then theres not alot to talk about. Plus you're talking on SEN, where they think mass wraiths will own everything.

Nah, on SEN people think mass scouts own.

I am a D/D+ Terran with ~40% winrate TvP. My PvT winrate is 65%, and I beat D+/C- Terrans, despite playing Terran about 50 times more often.
It's not even funny, you have to do so much perfectly as T just to hold up against a basic build.

Here's my PvT guide that should hold you until at least C-:
- 10/15 gate range, goon pressure.
- If you haven't won yet, contain Terran with Dragoons, or bulldog his tanks with zealots and then A-move.
- If you haven't won yet, Double expand and put up a few cannons at each.
- If you haven't won yet, wait for the Terran to slightly mess up when he's pushing and A-move your army in. Here's the tricky part: you have to MOVE your zealots to his tanks, then attack with them. (GASP! Protoss has such intricate micro!)
- If you haven't won yet, go carriers in some odd location and he probably won't scout it. Get 4, whittle down his tank count, then A-Move your army. If he does scout it, just switch back to Dragoons and his Goliaths become useless.
- If you haven't won yet, you should be maxed, so just get a ton of units and keep throwing them at his push. Eventually one of you will lose.

I haven't found a Terran counter yet, after a few hundred games. When I win it's a 35-40 minute game where I hold against his a-moves, or me using a 2fac build and purely outmicroing him.

That's because they do.

The Stove

The Stove was a viable strategy used before the 'Scout' price patch.
The price of scouts went from 150 -> 275 minerals, and god knows how much gas. 150 is 'affordable' in my dictionary.
275? 1 Scout is now comparable to a Carrier. From Ex's perspective, this is like buying an Antec case over a LianLi.

You'll still see scouts occasionally in profession games. 275 is significant, but you also force the Terran to go fast armory to accommodate and you can completely stop his push provided he hasn't brought a good amount of marines. The harass can be worth it, but it's kind of just something people throw in to mix it up from what I can see.

Early game, 275 is more than significant, more like a death blow.

Funny, if you go to the "certain old school strategies" topic, I already listed the stove.
I've seen scouts used a couple of times in professional games, either as a desperation attempt or for hulimiation. If you can show me a game where they used one strategically, all the more power to you I guess.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 3 2009, 10:08 am by ejac1337.