[QUOTE]the end of that statement bugs me: you act as if god's existence is factual, and that faith is the proof that it is factual. faith is the hope that it is factual, and it is, at the moment, opinion whether or not his existence is factual.[/QUOTE] Yes, R.I.S.K., that's why I said it that way.

Quote

the end of that statement bugs me: you act as if god's existence is factual, and that faith is the proof that it is factual. faith is the hope that it is factual, and it is, at the moment, opinion whether or not his existence is factual.

Yes, R.I.S.K., that's why I said it that way.

I would recommend that people read this book - or at least read the synopsis of it on the following page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

I would recommend that people read this book - or at least read the synopsis of it on the following page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

That book will only be helpful to people that think their belief is supported by reason, logic and evidence. A scarce few. I recommend "Letter to a Christian Nation", by Sam Harris, for people that have a more emotional or apologetic belief.

That book will only be helpful to people that think their belief is supported by reason, logic and evidence. A scarce few. I recommend "Letter to a Christian Nation", by Sam Harris, for people that have a more emotional or apologetic belief.

ha i thought my post on page 6 was enough reason to drop your faith in god. it was for me.

ha i thought my post on page 6 was enough reason to drop your faith in god. it was for me.

Don't turn these topics into a joke Devilesk. A crack every once in a while is reasonable, but putting up a whole poorly constructed facade for days on end isn't funny or useful at all.

Don't turn these topics into a joke Devilesk. A crack every once in a while is reasonable, but putting up a whole poorly constructed facade for days on end isn't funny or useful at all.

My yelling at Devilesk was sufficient, as he actually has to listen to me and not you guys. Please continue with topic-related discussion only.

My yelling at Devilesk was sufficient, as he actually has to listen to me and not you guys.

Please continue with topic-related discussion only.

[Quote=Zell.]ha i thought my post on page 6 was enough reason to drop your faith in god. it was for me.[/Quote] Are you talking about that conversation? I think it's a little hard to grasp te point of it, especially when it's just a small conversation with each person just making statements with very little evidence/support for what they are saying. For example: [QUOTE]MORPHEUS: "The individual desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization. The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning. God was a dream of good government. You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands"[/QUOTE] "The individual desires judgement" - support please "Without the desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization" - support please "The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning" - support please "God was a dream of good government" - support please "You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands" - O RLY? LULZ

Quote from Zell.

ha i thought my post on page 6 was enough reason to drop your faith in god. it was for me.

Are you talking about that conversation? I think it's a little hard to grasp te point of it, especially when it's just a small conversation with each person just making statements with very little evidence/support for what they are saying.

For example:

Quote

MORPHEUS: "The individual desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups
is impossible, and so is civilization. The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning. God was a dream of good government. You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands"

"The individual desires judgement" - support please
"Without the desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization" - support please
"The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning" - support please
"God was a dream of good government" - support please
"You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands" - O RLY? LULZ

Jesus, he quoted a work of fiction to illustrate a position, he can't find support for everything there. :P

Jesus, he quoted a work of fiction to illustrate a position, he can't find support for everything there.

[Quote=Mini Moose 2707]Jesus, he quoted a work of fiction to illustrate a position, he can't find support for everything there. :P[/Quote] Yea, it has no support for the statements it makes and it's supposed to make people just drop their faith after reading it.

Quote from Mini Moose 2707

Jesus, he quoted a work of fiction to illustrate a position, he can't find support for everything there.

Yea, it has no support for the statements it makes and it's supposed to make people just drop their faith after reading it.

[Quote=devilesk][Quote=Zell.]ha i thought my post on page 6 was enough reason to drop your faith in god. it was for me.[/Quote] Are you talking about that conversation? I think it's a little hard to grasp te point of it, especially when it's just a small conversation with each person just making statements with very little evidence/support for what they are saying. For example: [QUOTE]MORPHEUS: "The individual desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization. The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning. God was a dream of good government. You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands"[/QUOTE] "The individual desires judgement" - support please "Without the desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization" - support please "The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning" - support please "God was a dream of good government" - support please "You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands" - O RLY? LULZ[/Quote] Whats your point. People desire judgement.. that is obvious because people worship god in the first place. I didn't write the statements but this is the only logical idea answering who, what, where, when, why, and how. By process of elimination... This is the only reasonable answer. If there is another answer, post it.

Quote from devilesk

Quote from Zell.

ha i thought my post on page 6 was enough reason to drop your faith in god. it was for me.

Are you talking about that conversation? I think it's a little hard to grasp te point of it, especially when it's just a small conversation with each person just making statements with very little evidence/support for what they are saying.

For example:

Quote

MORPHEUS: "The individual desires judgment. Without that desire, the cohesion of groups
is impossible, and so is civilization. The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning. God was a dream of good government. You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands"

"The individual desires judgement" - support please
"Without the desire, the cohesion of groups is impossible, and so is civilization" - support please
"The human being created civilization not because of a willingness but because of a need to be assimilated into higher orders of structure and meaning" - support please
"God was a dream of good government" - support please
"You will soon have your God, and you will make it with your own hands" - O RLY? LULZ

Whats your point. People desire judgement.. that is obvious because people worship god in the first place. I didn't write the statements but this is the only logical idea answering who, what, where, when, why, and how. By process of elimination... This is the only reasonable answer. If there is another answer, post it.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html

[Quote=Zell Whats your point. People desire judgement.. that is obvious because people worship god in the first place. I didn't write the statements but this is the only logical idea answering who, what, where, when, why, and how. By process of elimination... This is the only reasonable answer. If there is another answer, post it.[/Quote] people fear afterlife, and so attribute to it a God that gives them immortality?

[Quote=Zell
Whats your point. People desire judgement.. that is obvious because people worship god in the first place. I didn't write the statements but this is the only logical idea answering who, what, where, when, why, and how. By process of elimination... This is the only reasonable answer. If there is another answer, post it.[/Quote]

people fear afterlife, and so attribute to it a God that gives them immortality?

Good point RISK, that is an example of judgement though. [COLOR=#81A7EF]People do good. They are judged by God good. Go to heaven[/COLOR]. OR [COLOR=#CE091D]People do bad. They are judged bad by god. Go to hell[/COLOR]. Anyway in the game Deus ex the AI Morpheus knows everything, therefore everything he said was truth. It is questionable but it is the only answer that has ever made sense to me. please,[QUOTE=Zell.] By process of elimination... This is the only reasonable answer. If there is another answer, post it.[/QUOTE] Whats your theory if mine is wrong?

Good point RISK, that is an example of judgement though. People do good. They are judged by God good. Go to heaven. OR People do bad. They are judged bad by god. Go to hell. Anyway in the game Deus ex the AI Morpheus knows everything, therefore everything he said was truth. It is questionable but it is the only answer that has ever made sense to me. please,

Quote from Zell.

By process of elimination... This is the only reasonable answer. If there is another answer, post it.

Whats your theory if mine is wrong?

Try this theory: Realize that life isn't fair, and you're sure to see justice if you take responsibility and bring it about yourself personally instead of waiting for a god or gods that may or may not exist to come around in the future to balance things out for you.

Try this theory: Realize that life isn't fair, and you're sure to see justice if you take responsibility and bring it about yourself personally instead of waiting for a god or gods that may or may not exist to come around in the future to balance things out for you.

Look at yourself. Why do you all think we were the only creatures given reason. I believe that there was a guiding hand in how humans developed. How do you explain billions and billions of species developing without reason and just 1, humans, developing with reason. God. A higher being.

Look at yourself. Why do you all think we were the only creatures given reason. I believe that there was a guiding hand in how humans developed. How do you explain billions and billions of species developing without reason and just 1, humans, developing with reason. God. A higher being.

[quote=Rogue_Rebel]Look at yourself. Why do you all think we were the only creatures given reason. I believe that there was a guiding hand in how humans developed. How do you explain billions and billions of species developing without reason and just 1, humans, developing with reason. God. A higher being.[/quote]That doesn't evidence a higher being in any respect. The Sun was considered a deity or a symbol of a deity some ancient cultures because they could not comprehend it, it just brought a lot of light during the day, allowed for crops to grow, and moved around in the sky. That doesn't prove that the Sun is a god, it just means that people relished its seemingly amazing power of sustaining life. In this case, you're using yourself as an example suggesting that you could only have been created by a higher power because your powers of reasoning exist but you cannot explain the concept. Except scientists are slowly beginning to understand how the brain works and why despite our seemingly intelligent faculties we are still governed by uncivil emotions such as anger and rage which provoke violent behavior without improving a situation and the sex drive which is fundamental to the survival of most multicellular organisms. When all of this is understood it won't seem as inconceivable just as we understand now have a decent grasp on the mechanics of the Sun. Your using humanity's current ignorance of a subject to suggest that it must be the result of a higher power when such explanations will become obsolete as these currently unexplained phenomena become explainable. Religion developed from people attempting to understand the world and concluding that there must be a higher being at work to explain the Sun, rain, humans, etc. Now that science can explain some of these things it is no longer necessary to subscribe to ancient mythologies as they become more and more inaccurate in their explanations. ~Ayra

Quote from Rogue_Rebel

Look at yourself. Why do you all think we were the only creatures given reason. I believe that there was a guiding hand in how humans developed. How do you explain billions and billions of species developing without reason and just 1, humans, developing with reason. God. A higher being.

That doesn't evidence a higher being in any respect. The Sun was considered a deity or a symbol of a deity some ancient cultures because they could not comprehend it, it just brought a lot of light during the day, allowed for crops to grow, and moved around in the sky. That doesn't prove that the Sun is a god, it just means that people relished its seemingly amazing power of sustaining life. In this case, you're using yourself as an example suggesting that you could only have been created by a higher power because your powers of reasoning exist but you cannot explain the concept. Except scientists are slowly beginning to understand how the brain works and why despite our seemingly intelligent faculties we are still governed by uncivil emotions such as anger and rage which provoke violent behavior without improving a situation and the sex drive which is fundamental to the survival of most multicellular organisms. When all of this is understood it won't seem as inconceivable just as we understand now have a decent grasp on the mechanics of the Sun. Your using humanity's current ignorance of a subject to suggest that it must be the result of a higher power when such explanations will become obsolete as these currently unexplained phenomena become explainable. Religion developed from people attempting to understand the world and concluding that there must be a higher being at work to explain the Sun, rain, humans, etc. Now that science can explain some of these things it is no longer necessary to subscribe to ancient mythologies as they become more and more inaccurate in their explanations.

~Ayra

[quote=Rogue_Rebel]Look at yourself. Why do you all think we were the only creatures given reason. I believe that there was a guiding hand in how humans developed. How do you explain billions and billions of species developing without reason and just 1, humans, developing with reason. God. A higher being.[/quote] http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html

Devilesk, they're not going to read that. Stop posting it. Actually, just stop posting in general. That's what I'm trying (and failing by doing this) to do.

Devilesk, they're not going to read that. Stop posting it. Actually, just stop posting in general. That's what I'm trying (and failing by doing this) to do.

Good idea cheeze. This is a lost cause.

Good idea cheeze. This is a lost cause.

No, it is not a "lost cause". That's a selfish and pompous statement. This argument in itself allows people to exchange their ideas and is the catalyst to advancing to higher levels of reason. You weren't born doubting the existence of God. I wasn't born with my opinion either. The only reason we have any beliefs is because of external resources. People here are learning, so leave them to it. All that your snide comments do is hinder them. If you don't like what you consider the "quality" of the conversation, complaining about it is the opposite of the solution.

No, it is not a "lost cause". That's a selfish and pompous statement. This argument in itself allows people to exchange their ideas and is the catalyst to advancing to higher levels of reason. You weren't born doubting the existence of God. I wasn't born with my opinion either. The only reason we have any beliefs is because of external resources. People here are learning, so leave them to it. All that your snide comments do is hinder them.
If you don't like what you consider the "quality" of the conversation, complaining about it is the opposite of the solution.