Staredit Network > Forums > Null > Topic: COVID Vaccination?
COVID Vaccination?
Aug 10 2021, 4:49 am
By: Ultraviolet
Pages: 1 2 3 >
 
Polls
Have you received a COVID 19 Vaccination
Have you received a COVID 19 Vaccination
Answer Votes Percentage % Voters
Yes 25
 
93%
No and do not plan to 1
 
4%
No but would like to 1
 
4%
Undecided as of yet 0
 
0%
None.
Prefer not to say 0
 
0%
None.
Please login to vote.
Poll has 27 votes. You can vote for at most 1 option(s).

Aug 10 2021, 4:49 am Ultraviolet Post #1

Don't stop till you get enough

What do you guys think? Have you been vaccinated or are you remaining unvaccinated?

I personally am choosing to remain unvaccinated. I'm young and healthy and SARS-CoV-2 appears to be a virus I could easily survive, therefore I would prefer to rely on natural immunity which has been shown to be 'durable and robust'. Also seeing some of the vaccine reactions with vaccine companies accepting no liability for adverse health reactions to this experimental new vaccine technology has me concerned it wouldn't be the best decision for my health.

Poll pending (if SEN will let it work)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2021, 5:02 am by Ultraviolet.




Aug 10 2021, 5:20 am Vrael Post #2



Is this serious?

Edit2: Sorry if this response comes across a little roughly, but this is Grade-A SRS.BSNS.

Edit: Genuine question, since this is posted in Null. I will elaborate - even if it is something you can 'easily survive' there is a huge risk of permanent complications https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/symptoms-causes/syc-20479963

The coronavirus has killed over 617,000 Americans to date.

By not vaccinating, you are choosing to maintain your ability to transmit to other more vulnerable people (elderly, disabled, already sick, etc), as well as choosing to essentially be an incubator for new mutations.

The vaccine is not experimental - it has been successfully administered to 166 million adults in the United States with a negligible number of cases of side effects. FDA approval is imminent.

You can find overview of possible adverse reactions and their counts here:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

I would also posit that your second link "https://www.c19vaxreactions.com/real-video-stories.html", which contains 16 videos on its main page of people who presumably don't like the vaccine, along with a number of pages like "Real Testimonials", "Real Video Stories" and "Real Medical Observations" is not a trustworthy source of medical information. Typically real medical sources don't have to prefix everything with "Real".

Post has been edited 7 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2021, 5:52 am by Vrael.



None.

Aug 10 2021, 5:22 am Corbo Post #3

ALL PRAISE YOUR SUPREME LORD CORBO

ya, he dumb



fuck you all

Aug 10 2021, 6:00 am O)FaRTy1billion[MM] Post #4

👻 👾 👽 💪

Yes. Apart from the expected effects immediately following the injections (soreness from first and fever+aches from second that only lasted about a day each) I haven't noticed any reactions since the shots. Having asthma and the potential risk of lasting complications due to COVID tells me that I definitely do not want to catch it, so getting the shot was never really a question for me. Also my brother, who is far more healthy and active than I am, got sick with it last November and was bedridden for 2 weeks, which was really what cemented in my mind that I wanted to protect myself from the virus as much as possible.



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Aug 10 2021, 7:02 am Oh_Man Post #5

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

My understanding is the immunity you get from the vaccine and the immunity you get from actually catching covid and surviving it are the same? Ie., both will eventually run out which means you can then catch it again down the line. That's why you need booster shots (to regain your immunity because your immune system "forgets" how it defended against covid the first time).

So both are the same, but you take risks either way. You either take the risk of an adverse reaction from the vaccine (like AstraZencha's infamous blood clotting issue) or you take the risk of getting seriously ill or even dying from covid instead of brushing it off. But my understanding is of the two risks, the chance of an adverse reaction from a vaccine is much much lower, whereas the chance of getting seriously ill/dying from covid is a lot higher, especially for elderly people or people who are sickly with asthama or what-not like Farty.

So if you have to roll dice either way, may as well take the roll that has better odds. For that reason I have had my two shots of Pfeizer vaccine, and I will have to have booster/boosters down the line to make sure my immune system never "forgets" the lessons it learned from the vaccine. I actually have a lot of other vaccines floating around in my body too that protect me from hepatatis B, whooping cough, measles/mumps/rubella, and polio. These were government mandated vaccines I received as a child in the school system, with some being further suppelemented with booster shots as an adult.

___________________

Another thing to consider is if you want to stop having to deal with lockdowns, wearing masks, etc "the pandemic lifestyle" then get vaccinated, and peer pressure everyone you know to get vaccinated. The only way things will go back to the way they were is if the vast majority of people are either (a) vaccinated, (b) dead from covid, or (c) covid survivors (but as I said above, covid survivors can still catch covid again down the line so (a) is way better).




Aug 10 2021, 9:22 am NudeRaider Post #6

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

UV it seems to me that you haven't done your homework. Not sure why so many people focus on COVID deaths so much. If we're solely looking at its death rate it's a pretty harmless virus. Just a few times worse that the flu. Only like 0.5% die from it, over 90% of them being old or have a precondition.

The danger for people outside of risk groups comes from long covid. https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4470
This is just the first google hit, I'm sure there's better sources to describe how many of the problems stick, but it should suffice to get you an idea of how serious of an illness covid is.
Two hundred and one individuals (mean age 44 (standard deviation 11.0) years) completed assessments after SARS-CoV-2 infection a median of 140 days after initial symptoms.

The prevalence of pre-existing conditions was low (obesity: 20%, hypertension: 6%, diabetes: 2%, heart disease: 4%), and less than a fifth (18%) of individuals had been hospitalised with covid-19.

The most commonly reported ongoing symptoms—regardless of hospitalisation status—were fatigue (98%), muscle ache (88%), shortness of breath (87%), and headache (83%). There was evidence of mild organ impairment in the heart (32% of patients), lungs (33%), kidneys (12%), liver (10%), pancreas (17%), and spleen (6%).

Two thirds (66%) of participants had impairment in one or more organ systems and there was evidence of multiorgan impairment in a quarter (25%) of individuals, with varying degrees of overlap across multiple organs.


Next, what is "natural" immunity? Do you know what vaccines do? It's not a "coating" that protects your cells or a chemical that sticks around and kills viruses, or w/e you imply. They simply train your immune system. Doesn't get more natural than that. The worst that can happen is that the training wasn't on point for a specific variant. But you'll still have some benefit from the vaccination because it typically weakens the severity of the illness. But guess what, the same can happen when you "train" your immune system with an actual infection. There have been reports that people have been infected twice.

Yes there's a small percentage of people that experience serious side effects from a vaccination but those cases are RARE. Really really RARE. It's just that we vaccinate SO MANY people at the same time that of course you can find "a lot" of people having problems. It's so rare that it's hard to find reliable numbers but they are around a few per million. Definitely a much lower risk than the double digit percentages of risk of developing long term problems due to a COVID infection.

About the experimental status of the vaccines. Well yeah we have no studies for 10 years or longer side effects, so that is a legitimate concern. In my (and many scientists') opinion, however, the scientific principle behind them is safe. I don't see how it could cause problems beyond the immediate reactions. But if you don't trust mRNA for being too new, you can get a vector vaccine like the J&J one (if you don't trust Astra). This type is in use since 2014. At this point you really have to ask how much longer are you going to wait, when there's an actual imminent danger. And it seems SARS CoV2 will become endemic so it's pretty much guaranteed you will catch it eventually.

Quote from Oh_Man
both will eventually run out which means you can then catch it again down the line.
This is for the most part for older people whose immune system doesn't react as strongly in the first place and doesn't develop as many antibodies. For healthy people it should last for a while.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2021, 9:36 am by NudeRaider.




Aug 10 2021, 1:28 pm lil-Inferno Post #7

Just here for the pie

Quote from NudeRaider
Only like 0.5% die from it, over 90% of them being old or have a precondition.
This is untrue, and the low death rate that's been touted is based on the entire population (not just those who have been infected) vs. those who have died from covid. In my county the death rate is more around 2.5% when calculating as deaths divided by infections. It's as delusory as saying vaccines are 99.99% effective because there's only been 0.01% breakthrough deaths (again, that is comparing against the entire vaccinated population, not just those who have had breakthrough infections). That isn't to say vaccines aren't highly effective; these are the most effective vaccines ever made, but let's be honest with ourselves when it comes to statistics.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 10 2021, 1:33 pm by lil-Inferno.




Aug 10 2021, 2:31 pm NudeRaider Post #8

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from lil-Inferno
In my county the death rate is more around 2.5%
Thanks for pointing that out. Foolishly, I had stored that number in my memory for over a year and hadn't updated yet. Back then we had the low CFR I stated. Not anymore. We're at 2.4% now.




Aug 10 2021, 3:58 pm Luigi Post #9

In God I trust.

I got the Sputnik V, which I consider it to be the best, based on its outstanding results from tests. And now I'm waiting for the second dose of it. I prefer the same vaccine than mixing different ones, especially if they are based on different technology. I don't have to wait much for the 2nd vaccine, but here where I live the calendar has been too delayed.
I belong to a risk group. I have respiratory problems. Allergic rhinitis wasn't considered comorbidity until a couple months ago. That's why I got the first shot too late, including that I'm young and therefore I was in one of the last groups in the calendar.
Quote from Ultraviolet
I personally am choosing to remain unvaccinated. I'm young and healthy and SARS-CoV-2 appears to be a virus I could easily survive
That's speculation about your own health.
Quote from Ultraviolet
therefore I would prefer to rely on natural immunity
The so-called natural immunity is less effective than that coming from vaccines. If you get Covid, you could only gain immunity to a specific variant of SARS-CoV-2, while vaccines provide immunity to a set of variants. And I only considered the optimistic case where you actually gain immunity, because your immune system may not respond correctly and you could get infected again to the same variant, no matter your age.



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Aug 10 2021, 5:03 pm NudeRaider Post #10

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from Luigi
vaccines provide immunity to a set of variants.
If only that were true :lol:

So far any of the vaccines always only prepare your immune system for just one type of spike protein. Protection against variants depends on how similar the protein is to the actual protein from the variant.




Aug 10 2021, 5:34 pm Luigi Post #11

In God I trust.

Quote from NudeRaider
Protection against variants depends on how similar the protein is to the actual protein from the variant.
That was expected from vaccines. It is better to get vaccinated than waiting to get the active virus.



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Aug 10 2021, 11:34 pm Fruitdispenser Post #12



Vaccines don't work. You can see all the people who have caught polio or smallpox.

What's that? Smallpox has been eradicated and polio only exist in places where vaccines aren't implemented? But, that would mean that, that, that, vaccines work? That people who have studied all of their lives actually know what they are talking about?
Shocking!

Edit: got the two doses of Sinovac and the annual flu shot. I'll get a Sinovac boost as soon as I'm able



None.

Aug 11 2021, 3:16 am Oh_Man Post #13

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

W/e you think about the vaccine's efficacy, surely you cannot deny the benefits of 24/7 full 5g reception anywhere you go?




Aug 11 2021, 9:35 am IlyaSnopchenko Post #14

The Curious

Oh, this topic is such a can of worms. :)

BTW I got both shots in May, without any side effects worth reporting (chills on the first night after the 2nd dose, and feeling weak on the day afterwards, but that was it).

Lots of my relatives - both parents, the wife, the entire family of my second cousin - had coronavirus within the last few months, and for most of them, it wasn't pretty. Def. a lot more serious than the common flu some people like to compare it to. Some people I knew have died (off the top of my head: two journalist colleagues and one of the city's prominent eco activists; none of them were old, 50ish at worst). Again, no one usually dies from flu unless they've had some serious chronic diseases AND have had let the infection run untreated.



Who am I, and why should I care?

Aug 13 2021, 5:57 am Oh_Man Post #15

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

So UltraViolet you have heard some opinions now. What are your thoughts now having read what everyone has to say?




Aug 13 2021, 3:43 pm NudeRaider Post #16

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

He told me that he needs some time to build his case.




Aug 13 2021, 4:07 pm Voyager7456 Post #17

Responsible for my own happiness? I can't even be responsible for my own breakfast

lol



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Aug 13 2021, 8:16 pm Moose Post #18



Quote from Ultraviolet
experimental new vaccine technology has me concerned
The mRNA vaccine has your body produce the characteristic spike protein rather than it being injected into you. It's basically doing the same thing, just with "on-site manufacturing" versus a lab.

Additionally, there are viral vector vaccines (ex. Janseen / Johnson & Johnson), so your concerns about the new vaccine technology are moot when vaccines using older technology exist.

Quote from Vrael
By not vaccinating, you are choosing to maintain your ability to transmit to other more vulnerable people (elderly, disabled, already sick, etc), as well as choosing to essentially be an incubator for new mutations.
My understanding of the vaccine is that it severely reduces risk of serious infection and death, but does not prevent reproduction or transmission of COVID-19. COVID-19 is able to infect and reproduce in the mucous membranes and respiratory system. The vaccine leads to creation of antibodies in the blood, which prevents the wipespread infection through the bloodstream and the resulting complications. It reduces the odds of transmission, but does not eliminate the risk.




Aug 14 2021, 8:30 am Ultraviolet Post #19

Don't stop till you get enough

It's been a busy week and I didn't expect this turnout, but it's good to see people participating in the discussion. Sorry for the delay (I see you on the edge of your seat there Oh_Man).

Quote from Vrael
Is this serious?

Edit2: Sorry if this response comes across a little roughly, but this is Grade-A SRS.BSNS.


Edit: Genuine question, since this is posted in Null. I will elaborate - even if it is something you can 'easily survive' there is a huge risk of permanent complications https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/symptoms-causes/syc-20479963

I may have chosen the wrong subforum. There's something comfortable about the Null space, though. Even Corbo's standard "ya, he dumb" feels like a welcome lightness to a serious discussion. Maybe that's why I put it here. Here's some information on treating long term COVID.

Quote from Vrael
The coronavirus has killed over 617,000 Americans to date.

Many of whom already had health complications, poor general health or were over 50 years old. There are a multitude of factors to consider when evaluating one's risk status surrounding COVID. Every factor I've evaluated puts me into a low risk category, including age, blood type, lack of pre-existing conditions, regular exercise routine, healthy diet, healthy weight, non-smoker, sufficient vitamin levels, particularly Vitamin D, etc.

Quote from Vrael
By not vaccinating, you are choosing not to decrease your ability to transmit to other more vulnerable people (elderly, disabled, already sick, etc),

Hogwash. From the CDC:

Quote
The risks of SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated where community transmission of the virus is widespread. Vaccinated people could potentially still become infected and spread the virus to others.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-warns-vaccinated-people-can-pass-covid-to-others/ss-AAMFl1F?ocid=msedgntp&fbclid=IwAR0YcSeDNzDFwm9kSnINhsXJXVr6zqYoqAJi5wbwBaxxvP_2YYnW7elRHWE
https://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-fully-vaccinated-people-can-spread-delta-variant-2021-7

Quote from Vrael
as well as choosing to essentially be an incubator for new mutations.

Many immunologists are arguing exactly the opposite: over-vaccination is leading to the virus being forced to mutate to spread successfully. These immunologists strongly warn against over-vaccination of healthy individuals which robs them of the opportunity to develop natural immunity which is far more robust in treating a variety of infections, as well as longer lasting. See Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche's interview, one of the world's leading immunologists, for further explanation.

Quote from Vrael
The vaccine is not experimental - it has been successfully administered to 166 million adults in the United States with a negligible number of cases of side effects. FDA approval is imminent.

You can find overview of possible adverse reactions and their counts here:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Also hogwash. The vaccine is highly experimental. This is the first time mRNA vaccines have been used in human history. Everyone who receives one is a subject of the first test run. Successful administration to X individuals in less than a year gives no indication of long term side effects. COVID vaccines currently only have an emergency use authorization with no liability held for the manufacturers of said vaccinations. To claim the vaccine is not experimental is simply incorrect.

See this article for 'experimental COVID-19 vaccine' explicitly stated

Your link does provide some data about the adverse reactions, the data found here: https://www.openvaers.com/ gives a more complete picture. It's drawn directly from the VAERS database so it's continuously kept up to date. VAERS data is pulled from more places than just the United States as well which allows us to view a larger sample. You claim there are a negligible number of cases with side effects, but compared to previous vaccines, I'd argue this is simply not true. One of the most alarming figures from the VAERS data to me is that 12,366 of the total 21,224 reported VAERS deaths are related to COVID vaccinations. Greater than 58% of all reported deaths after vaccination have been after COVID vaccinations. VAERS was established in 1990, but almost 60% of the reported deaths came from these particular vaccines this year alone. You might say this is due to the sheer quantity of people being vaccinated at once, maybe this is true, it's too early to say for certain, though. I'd rather take my chances with the virus.

Additionally, the Lazarus report states:

Quote
Adverse events from drugs and vaccines are common, but underreported. Although 25% of ambulatory patients experience an adverse drug event, less than 0.3% of all adverse drug events and 1-13% of serious events are reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Likewise, fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported. Low reporting rates preclude or slow the identification of “problem” drugs and vaccines that endanger public health. New surveillance methods for drug and vaccine adverse effects are needed. Barriers to reporting include a lack of clinician awareness, uncertainty about when and what to report, as well as the burdens of reporting: reporting is not part of clinicians’ usual workflow, takes time, and is duplicative. Proactive, spontaneous, automated adverse event reporting imbedded within EHRs and other information systems has the potential to speed the identification of problems with new drugs and more careful quantification of the risks of older drugs

So, let's assume the Lazarus report was actually wrong by an order of magnitude and a full 10% of vaccine adverse events are reported: the 12,366 reported VAERS COVID vaccination deaths jumps to 123,660 estimated deaths. If we give the Lazarus report the benefit of the doubt and assume that truly only 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported, that figure becomes 1,236,600 deaths after COVID vaccination. The number reported for the United States as of August 9, 2021 is 6,631 which would become 663,100 given a 1% VAERS reporting rate, more than the number of people COVID has killed in the US.

Quote from Vrael
I would also posit that your second link "https://www.c19vaxreactions.com/real-video-stories.html", which contains 16 videos on its main page of people who presumably don't like the vaccine, along with a number of pages like "Real Testimonials", "Real Video Stories" and "Real Medical Observations" is not a trustworthy source of medical information. Typically real medical sources don't have to prefix everything with "Real".

I see you don't prefer their way of presenting information, but a source is not discredited simply by using the word 'real' excessively. They are in a position where they are being discredited for what they are saying, it's natural to speak defensively. Here's an article which goes to show that these stories are indeed "real" and that these are not just people who "presumably don't like the vaccine".

Quote
“It has come to our attention that several hundred individuals in the United States have experienced life-altering injuries after receiving COVID-19 vaccines," Lee stated in a letter to the director and acting commissioner of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The letter goes on to say: “The widespread lack of acknowledgement of adverse events following receipt of a COVID-19 vaccination has made it nearly impossible for some of these individuals to obtain the medical treatment they need. If any of the COVID-19 vaccines truly cause adverse events of the severity noted above, even in a small percentage of cases, these risks must be disclosed, particularly to the medical community so that healthcare professionals are properly informed and may provide necessary treatment, care, and information to the general public as they weigh the risks and benefits of being vaccinated.”

You say they presumably don't like the vaccine, yet their front page states:

Quote
WHO WE ARE:

• We are a large and ever growing group of Americans who were previously healthy and have been seriously injured by the COVID vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna, J&J as well as Astra Zeneca in the clinical trial stage in the United States).

• We are pro-vaccine, pro-science and were excited for the opportunity to be vaccinated and to do our part in helping to end the pandemic.

• We are completely independent of any other organization.

These are people who are pro-vaccine, received the vaccine, experienced serious complications and are trying to help others avoid the same thing happening to them while also seeking help for themselves. Meanwhile, Moderna, Pfizer, and other pharmaceutical companies are profiting billions off these vaccines and are highly motivated to silence such claims of problems with their vaccines while accepting no liability for damages. You may say, "Oh, but the vaccines are free!" Not so. Our tax dollars have paid these companies handsomely for this experiment, confounding things even further. There's a huge profit incentive for these companies to push the agenda that everyone needs to be vaccinated regardless of age, health status, or vaccine safety. Additionally the board overseeing COVID-19 trials has major conflicts of interest with certain board members being heavily associated with pharmaceutical companies. Very suspicious for a board which is supposed to be neutral and objective.


Quote from O)FaRTy1billion[MM]
Yes. Apart from the expected effects immediately following the injections (soreness from first and fever+aches from second that only lasted about a day each) I haven't noticed any reactions since the shots. Having asthma and the potential risk of lasting complications due to COVID tells me that I definitely do not want to catch it, so getting the shot was never really a question for me. Also my brother, who is far more healthy and active than I am, got sick with it last November and was bedridden for 2 weeks, which was really what cemented in my mind that I wanted to protect myself from the virus as much as possible.

To put it out there, I think it's great that you wanted the vaccine and you got it. That's what freedom of choice is all about. While I personally feel it's not the best decision for my own health, I fully support you in your decision and don't think any less of you. Not that I would have any reason to, but it seems that some of you think less of me for my own stance, so I want to be clear that that's not the boat I'm in.


Quote from Oh_Man
My understanding is the immunity you get from the vaccine and the immunity you get from actually catching covid and surviving it are the same? Ie., both will eventually run out which means you can then catch it again down the line. That's why you need booster shots (to regain your immunity because your immune system "forgets" how it defended against covid the first time).

So both are the same, but you take risks either way. You either take the risk of an adverse reaction from the vaccine (like AstraZencha's infamous blood clotting issue) or you take the risk of getting seriously ill or even dying from covid instead of brushing it off. But my understanding is of the two risks, the chance of an adverse reaction from a vaccine is much much lower, whereas the chance of getting seriously ill/dying from covid is a lot higher, especially for elderly people or people who are sickly with asthama or what-not like Farty.

So if you have to roll dice either way, may as well take the roll that has better odds. For that reason I have had my two shots of Pfeizer vaccine, and I will have to have booster/boosters down the line to make sure my immune system never "forgets" the lessons it learned from the vaccine. I actually have a lot of other vaccines floating around in my body too that protect me from hepatatis B, whooping cough, measles/mumps/rubella, and polio. These were government mandated vaccines I received as a child in the school system, with some being further suppelemented with booster shots as an adult.

COVID-19 vaccine generated antibody levels appear to begin declining at six weeks. On the other hand, an ongoing study of patients confirmed to have recovered from COVID-19 has shown natural immunity to be effective for at least eight months. They haven't found evidence of natural immunity disappearing after eight months, it's just that the study has only gone on that long so far, natural immunity is still going strong.

My research shows that risk of adverse reactions from COVID can be mitigated with various prophylactic methods, while the risks from COVID vaccines are underreported. This combination leads me to believe my better odds dice roll will be without the vaccine. I also have a multitude of other vaccines, with much longer histories of human use, floating around in my body. You may not have noticed, but I'm not saying all vaccines are bad. I'm not even saying no one should get the COVID vaccine. I am arguing that these vaccines are experimental, seem riskier for me personally than COVID itself, and I don't want one.

Quote from Oh_Man
Another thing to consider is if you want to stop having to deal with lockdowns, wearing masks, etc "the pandemic lifestyle" then get vaccinated, and peer pressure everyone you know to get vaccinated. The only way things will go back to the way they were is if the vast majority of people are either (a) vaccinated, (b) dead from covid, or (c) covid survivors (but as I said above, covid survivors can still catch covid again down the line so (a) is way better).

The problem with this is that it's a fear based approach which is basically saying, 'If you want our world leaders to stop hammering us with ineffective policies, you should just roll over and do what they tell you. Oh also peer pressure all your friends into blind submission.' It's called Hobson's choice. No thanks. This article while written humorously, illustrates my point. You all received your current vaccinations with the belief that it was the key to getting out of the lockdowns, wearing masks, etc. What's happening now? CDC warns that fully vaccinated people can still spread COVID to others. Whoops, guess the vaccines didn't solve the mask problem. Masks are also ineffective in preventing the spread of COVID-19.

Quote
It’s a myth that masks prevent viruses from spreading. The overall evidence is clear: Standard cloth and surgical masks offer next to no protection against virus-sized particles or small aerosols. The size of a virus particle is much too small to be stopped by a surgical mask, cloth or bandana. A single virion of SARS-CoV-2 is about 60-140 nanometers or 0.1 microns. The pore size in a surgical mask is 200-1000x that size. Consider that the CDC website states, “surgical masks do not catch all harmful particles in smoke.” And that the size of smoke particles in a wildfire are ~0.5 microns which is 5x the size of the SARS-CoV-2 virus! Wearing a mask to prevent catching SARS-CoV-2, or similarly sized influenza, is like throwing sand at a chain-link fence: it doesn’t work.

Additionally masking children has been shown to cause far more harm than good.

Quote
Unfortunately, the unelected health bureaucrats that have exercised so much power in the last year and a half have not learned much from the lessons of the Covid-19 pandemic. Inexplicably and without any scientific evidence, they continue to insist that children must wear masks when in the classroom.

They show no evidence of having seen a study out of Florida showing that disease-causing organisms build up inside a child’s mask after several hours of wear. Recently, JAMA Pediatrics published a study showing dangerous levels of CO2 among kids after only a short time wearing a mask. As I have noted in my book, COVID-19, A Physicians Take on the Exaggerated Fear of the Coronavirus, the SARS CoV2 virus is not stopped by the pores on typical facial masks. It's like trying to stop a mosquito with a chain-link fence.

The WHO has told us that it is rare for those without symptoms to pass Covid-19 to others. They estimate asymptomatic spread to be less than 1% of all Covid-19 cases. Dr. Fauci even said, “Asymptomatic spread is not a common driver of infection.” This makes perfect sense if you think about it. Viral respiratory illnesses like Covid-19, the common cold, or even Influenza, are spread by those with symptoms – when they cough or sneeze.

America's Frontline Doctors provides an alternative road map to recovery which is far more sensible to me.




Aug 14 2021, 8:46 am Ultraviolet Post #20

Don't stop till you get enough

Quote from NudeRaider
UV it seems to me that you haven't done your homework. Not sure why so many people focus on COVID deaths so much. If we're solely looking at its death rate it's a pretty harmless virus. Just a few times worse that the flu. Only like 0.5% die from it, over 90% of them being old or have a precondition.

The danger for people outside of risk groups comes from long covid. https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4470
This is just the first google hit, I'm sure there's better sources to describe how many of the problems stick, but it should suffice to get you an idea of how serious of an illness covid is.
Two hundred and one individuals (mean age 44 (standard deviation 11.0) years) completed assessments after SARS-CoV-2 infection a median of 140 days after initial symptoms.

The prevalence of pre-existing conditions was low (obesity: 20%, hypertension: 6%, diabetes: 2%, heart disease: 4%), and less than a fifth (18%) of individuals had been hospitalised with covid-19.

The most commonly reported ongoing symptoms—regardless of hospitalisation status—were fatigue (98%), muscle ache (88%), shortness of breath (87%), and headache (83%). There was evidence of mild organ impairment in the heart (32% of patients), lungs (33%), kidneys (12%), liver (10%), pancreas (17%), and spleen (6%).

Two thirds (66%) of participants had impairment in one or more organ systems and there was evidence of multiorgan impairment in a quarter (25%) of individuals, with varying degrees of overlap across multiple organs.

I hope you agree that I haven't shown up to class completely unprepared. I still don't expect you to agree with my stance, but I've got my reasons. This point of yours is one of the better points made, in my opinion. I believe death is often focused upon because it's the most serious adverse reaction one could experience, no coming back from that. But your point is valid, long term side effects are a big concern with COVID as well. Admittedly I'm not particularly excited about the prospect of catching and dealing with COVID, but I do believe that I will come out the other side healthfully with all the measures I take to ensure I'm healthy on a daily basis. This chart from McMillan Research illustrates what factors their doctors believe influence whether a case of COVID will be mild or severe. I have high Vitamin D levels which they believe results in mild infection. Additionally, if I do get COVID and suffer long term symptoms, I have an alternative treatment plan which I believe will be safer and more effective than accepting experimental vaccination.

Quote from NudeRaider
Next, what is "natural" immunity? Do you know what vaccines do? It's not a "coating" that protects your cells or a chemical that sticks around and kills viruses, or w/e you imply. They simply train your immune system. Doesn't get more natural than that. The worst that can happen is that the training wasn't on point for a specific variant. But you'll still have some benefit from the vaccination because it typically weakens the severity of the illness. But guess what, the same can happen when you "train" your immune system with an actual infection. There have been reports that people have been infected twice.

I get that you're being somewhat facetious here, but to be clear natural immunity is immunity gained through a bonafide infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus, not a solution injected into your arm, and natural immunity to COVID has already shown to be longer lasting than vaccinated immunity. Additionally, you seem to imply that vaccinated immunity is the same as natural immunity, but this is definitely not the case. The mRNA vaccines, for example, train your immune system very specifically to search for ONE of the many spike proteins attached to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, it's like a silver bullet designed to target one thing while ignoring everything else. Natural immunity is more of a shotgun approach: your body develops some specific immunity, but also increases its general defense. COVID-19 vaccines have been shown to substantially increase antibodies targetting SARS-CoV-2 at the expense of your body's general defense antibodies. Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche's interview explains this far better than I can.

Quote from NudeRaider
Yes there's a small percentage of people that experience serious side effects from a vaccination but those cases are RARE. Really really RARE. It's just that we vaccinate SO MANY people at the same time that of course you can find "a lot" of people having problems. It's so rare that it's hard to find reliable numbers but they are around a few per million. Definitely a much lower risk than the double digit percentages of risk of developing long term problems due to a COVID infection.

Looking through this article, I've gotta point out it makes some questionable statements. At one point it states that COVID-19 has become one of the top 10 leading causes of death in children. I've seen no evidence to support this, quite the contrary. From the AFLDS white paper:

Quote
For children COVID-19 is much less lethal than influenza. During the 2018-19 flu season, the CDC reported approximately 480 flu deaths among children ages 0-17. Comparably, 90 youths have died from coronavirus complications from the beginning of the pandemic through mid-August, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics. More than 46,000 children were hospitalized for flu in that 2018-19 period, with ahe hospitalization rate among children 5 to 17 of 39.2 children per 100,000 children. For COVID-19, that hospitalization rate is 6 per 100,000 children ages 5 to 17, according to the CDC. In a report detailing the differences between COVID-19 and the flu, the CDC states, "the risk of complications for healthy children is higher for flu compared to COVID-19."

Part of the rarity here is explained earlier in my post. It's estimated only 1% of vaccine adverse events are officially reported to VAERS. There's also been some apparent suppression of information regarding side effects of these vaccines. The pharmaceutical companies and government organizations supporting them are not showing themselves to be trustworthy. Transparency is trustworthy, which is not what we're seeing here. There's a massive campaign to suppress the information I'm sharing with you all. YouTube accounts have been banned, Google searches are censored, and if anything like this is posted on social media, there's an automatic response claiming it to be "misinformation" with several links to biased articles. Why is there so much fear around having conversations about this? If the vaccines are truly as safe and effective as they are claimed to be, there should be room for dialogue. Obviously not all of us are on board. Telling us to shut up, or claiming we're not very smart in President Biden's words, and go get the vaccine doesn't build trust. Quite the opposite. My research leads me to believe that the risks of the COVID vaccine are greater for me than the risks of COVID itself. Dr. Simone Gold talks about the epidemic of misinformation surrounding COVID-19. AFLDS White Paper on Experimental Vaccines for COVID-19.

Quote from NudeRaider
About the experimental status of the vaccines. Well yeah we have no studies for 10 years or longer side effects, so that is a legitimate concern. In my (and many scientists') opinion, however, the scientific principle behind them is safe. I don't see how it could cause problems beyond the immediate reactions. But if you don't trust mRNA for being too new, you can get a vector vaccine like the J&J one (if you don't trust Astra). This type is in use since 2014. At this point you really have to ask how much longer are you going to wait, when there's an actual imminent danger. And it seems SARS CoV2 will become endemic so it's pretty much guaranteed you will catch it eventually.

Thanks for admitting that. But it's contradictory to suggest I take a different vaccine with less than 10 years of history for study of long term side effects immediately afterwards. 2014 was 7 years ago, that's not really that long. You argue many scientists feel they are safe, but there are a great many who are on the opposite side of the fence, too. I don't blame you for not being very aware of this, as previously stated, there's a massive campaign going on to discredit anyone who speaks against masks and COVID vaccines. Additionally, outside of the personal safety debate is Dr. Bossche's interview which warns of the dangers of over-vaccination of healthy people.


Quote from Luigi
The so-called natural immunity is less effective than that coming from vaccines. If you get Covid, you could only gain immunity to a specific variant of SARS-CoV-2, while vaccines provide immunity to a set of variants. And I only considered the optimistic case where you actually gain immunity, because your immune system may not respond correctly and you could get infected again to the same variant, no matter your age.

As Nude pointed out, this is incorrect. The opposite of what you said is more likely true, natural immunity is more diverse and robust making it more likely to protect against variants.


Quote from lil-Inferno
Quote from NudeRaider
Only like 0.5% die from it, over 90% of them being old or have a precondition.
This is untrue, and the low death rate that's been touted is based on the entire population (not just those who have been infected) vs. those who have died from covid. In my county the death rate is more around 2.5% when calculating as deaths divided by infections. It's as delusory as saying vaccines are 99.99% effective because there's only been 0.01% breakthrough deaths (again, that is comparing against the entire vaccinated population, not just those who have had breakthrough infections). That isn't to say vaccines aren't highly effective; these are the most effective vaccines ever made, but let's be honest with ourselves when it comes to statistics.

Dr. Fauci states that many COVID infections are not reported due to the high presence of asymptomatic or minorly symptomatic infections. The CDC's best estimate for age range 18-49 is 500 deaths per 1,000,000 infections. That's an estimated 0.05% death rate, far less than even a standard seasonal flu, which is expected to kill 0.1% of those infected. For anyone above 50 years old, the risk goes up quickly, with an estimated death rate of 0.6% for those 50-64 and estimated 9% for those 65+. All of these rates of death are without treating with medications like Ivermectin (safely in use since 1981) or Hydroxychloroquine (safely in use since 1955), with these medications those rates go down drastically. Unfortunately these safe and effective medications are under attack from a misinformation campaign bent on convincing people that vaccination is our only way out of this mess. See these resources for more information: Dr. Simone Gold talks about the epidemic of misinformation surrounding COVID-19 and AFLDS White Paper on Experimental Vaccines for COVID-19

Quote from Moose
Quote from Ultraviolet
experimental new vaccine technology has me concerned
The mRNA vaccine has your body produce the characteristic spike protein rather than it being injected into you. It's basically doing the same thing, just with "on-site manufacturing" versus a lab.

Additionally, there are viral vector vaccines (ex. Janseen / Johnson & Johnson), so your concerns about the new vaccine technology are moot when vaccines using older technology exist.

I think I adequately responded to this in my response to Nude.

Quote from Moose
Quote from Vrael
By not vaccinating, you are choosing to maintain your ability to transmit to other more vulnerable people (elderly, disabled, already sick, etc), as well as choosing to essentially be an incubator for new mutations.
My understanding of the vaccine is that it severely reduces risk of serious infection and death, but does not prevent reproduction or transmission of COVID-19. COVID-19 is able to infect and reproduce in the mucous membranes and respiratory system. The vaccine leads to creation of antibodies in the blood, which prevents the wipespread infection through the bloodstream and the resulting complications. It reduces the odds of transmission, but does not eliminate the risk.

I'd add that it's questionable how effective the vaccines really are at severely reducing risk of serious infection and death. Remember when the vaccines first were released and claimed to be 90-95% effective at preventing infection and 100% effective at preventing serious disease? We can say with confidence that the vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing serious disease:

https://fox17.com/news/local/24-fully-vaccinated-people-have-died-in-tennessee-health-department-says-breakthrough-case-virus-coronavirus-?fbclid=IwAR3V2EWMveXVQgv5zqfcizxmM0wyJmIb0PXCk02HF4-TQaGxXnpyzs6NJM0
https://www.kpbs.org/news/2021/jun/28/three-post-vaccination-covid-19-deaths-confirmed-s/
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/health/four-fully-vaccinated-people-with-underlying-high-risk-health-conditions-have-died-of-covid-19-in-dallas-county/2620851/
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/71-people-dead-268-hospitalized-in-mass-breakthrough-cases-report/2429550/
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-health-watch/246-infected-3-dead-covid-19-michigan-despite-being-vaccinated
https://www.newsweek.com/fully-vaccinated-new-orleans-woman-dies-covid-aged-33-rare-breakthrough-case-1613379
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/health/breakthrough-infections-covid-vaccines-cdc/index.html
https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/06/reports-half-of-adults-in-israel-infected-in-latest-covid-19-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated/
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/169-dead-644-hospitalized-in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2569598/


Quote from Oh_Man
So UltraViolet you have heard some opinions now. What are your thoughts now having read what everyone has to say?

One of the thoughts that came to mind is that it's funny how often my side is dubbed as spreading misinformation yet reading all of your responses, I'm seeing you all having to correct each other frequently. I'm a little surprised I'm the only one here who isn't interested in receiving a COVID vaccine given there are many people worldwide choosing not to. I'm expecting most or all of you to dub me a conspiracy theorist, and I mostly just want to get back to mapping. This was a lot to respond to and I'm tired.

I'll leave you all with a joke:






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[04:34 am]
Slyence -- Ohh. Sneaky emote. Hmmmm
[04:01 am]
lil-Inferno -- Slyence
Slyence shouted: Does anyone know if Voyager is still around?
he is but you'll have way better lucc finding him on SEN discord
[03:04 am]
Ultraviolet -- Slyence
Slyence shouted: Sorry about all the reminiscing. Just brings back the good Ole days.
we don't do that here :shifty:
[03:03 am]
Ultraviolet -- sraw531
sraw531 shouted: anyone here know why alliance triggers seem to be broodwar specific according to scmdraft2?
no idea why, but just confirmed through a small test that you're correct
[03:01 am]
Ultraviolet -- NudeRaider
NudeRaider shouted: NudeRaider *sigh* n
oh I didn't know wtf you were going for lol
[02:43 am]
sraw531 -- literally just copied the trigger from the original map and changed the location name and it breaks...
[02:33 am]
sraw531 -- trying to make a remake of Terran9, which has zerg and protoss who hate each other
[02:32 am]
sraw531 -- anyone here know why alliance triggers seem to be broodwar specific according to scmdraft2?
[12:53 am]
Slyence -- I think there was even an advertising team back then.
[12:52 am]
Slyence -- Sorry about all the reminiscing. Just brings back the good Ole days.
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