Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 UMS Mapmaking Assistance > Topic: Hi. I'm really really sorry if this is a dumb question...SUP
Hi. I'm really really sorry if this is a dumb question...SUP
May 20 2018, 1:12 pm
By: blitzburns4  

May 20 2018, 1:12 pm blitzburns4 Post #1



Hey all,

You may know me as "that guy" who made that newest iteration of the 1939 map. (You probably don't know me. I apologize.) I come here in desperate need for help. I'm having an issue with players massing one particular unit, and after consulting with someone who actually knows what he's doing, (co-map creator of current iteration of BX3.201-present Line of maps, Shyguy) he informed me that there's no way to edit the cap "supply space" statistic?

We agreed that there is a dual issue of macro and micro gameplay. We agreed on making changes to the damage/armor of said unit to balance it, but preferably we'd also hit the statistics that, more intuitively, have to do with the macro use: which is namely mineral/resource cost, and most quintessentially, its supply values The specific unit in question is an unsieged tank. It's just too good for 2 supply out of the 200 limit. I want it to be 3 supply, but aparently I can't edit that?

I'm using Scmdraft 2.0
I'm using it for this map: Diplomacy or War 1939 BX3.208 (Working on 3.5 coming "soon")

And, I know its a bit dubious, but I'm looking for a reliable map unlocker. Dual purpose of mapmakers of other diplomacy maps I want to learn from are not available (with the mapmakers long gone) and I got locked out of my own map before and, yes while its dumb and I recovered, while I'm here I'd like to know any pointers.

Best regards,

Blitzburns4

Email: blitzburns4@gmail.com

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 20 2018, 1:31 pm by blitzburns4.



None.

May 20 2018, 1:32 pm Septhiroth Post #2



You can edit the Supply cost for a Unit if use EUDs. But the drawback with that is that it won't be running on extended.




May 20 2018, 1:44 pm blitzburns4 Post #3



Quote from Septhiroth
You can edit the Supply cost for a Unit if use EUDs. But the issue with that is that it won't be running on extended.

I'm going to be honest here. I've never even heard of this concept before you mentioned it. I went ahead and looked up EUDs and found this handy guide and this quite humorous video.

Three questions that immediately spring to mind

1. Are you really sure? Not to sound condescending, but just at glancing at that video that seems soooo overly necessary to simply edit a statistic. So many other editing of statistics are so seamless, you know? Is there no mainstream tool I could utilize?

2. If EUDS are the end-all be all for this issue, then humor me just for references' sake. Are they hard to utilize? Because just taking one look at that level of modding guide (compared to how seamless using scmdraft is for anyone, even a noob like me) seems to be a little too much for my paygrade. Edit: Furthermore, could I use them online on battlenet? Because that's the basis for these maps: my small player base of around 20 to 40 players that I play with on USWest.

3. More directly to the point, what does extending mean? In laymen's terms.

Thank you for your prompt and patient response. I'm trying my best.

- Blitzburns4

Edit #2: Passing out. Been up all night working on various items. I'll see your response soon!!

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 20 2018, 1:51 pm by blitzburns4.



None.

May 20 2018, 2:14 pm Septhiroth Post #4



1. That's pretty much the only way I would know to fix it.

2. The difficulty of EUDs varies, depending on the application. For your case, it would require few adjustments in changing numbers inside the EUD Editor. Yes, you can use them Online.

3. Extended refers to the CCMU Unit Limit and Sprite Bullet limit being extended to ~3200 and 400 respectively. You won't be able to have access to these limits, since they aren't on 1.16




May 20 2018, 10:11 pm blitzburns4 Post #5



Quote from Septhiroth
1. That's pretty much the only way I would know to fix it.

And even knowing that there is a solution out there is a big help. Thank you Sephiroth. (Weird saying that lmao.)

Quote
2. The difficulty of EUDs varies, depending on the application. For your case, it would require few adjustments in changing numbers inside the EUD Editor. Yes, you can use them Online.

Wow. It's amazing that this is intergrated with scmdraft 2.0. Duly noted.

Quote
3. Extended refers to the CCMU Unit Limit and Sprite Bullet limit being extended to ~3200 and 400 respectively. You won't be able to have access to these limits, since they aren't on 1.16 That's pretty much the only way I would know to fix it.

That's fine. The already-extended limit for CCMU is more-than-reasonable. I'll discuss this over with shyguy. Last question. Is it okay to post or come back though if we have technical issues? Are you a knowledgable source with EUDs?

Again, thank you so much for your help. This has already been a genuinely informative post.

Edit: Just talked to Shyguy. He says apparently updates can ruin euds. (So we'd have to update it every new patch potentially.) But the even bigger and more pressing issue is he also says that memory addresses were changed in the latest patch of 1.2 and remaster, from what they were in that list. In addition, he says windows and mac versions of EUD use are inherently different to program for, which we can tell from the guide how to solve and account for, but the issue now is knowing those values. I'm not expecting miracle answers. But we have to ask: can you give us any advice?

Edit 2: We just found this. Thank YOU Blizzard!! That could have been bad lol.

Edit 3: So evidently these values are only for PC...Which is a big issue. We need help again lol. Do you think these values are the same as Macs? Total roller coaster of emotions here. We also stumbled across this post which hints that EUDs current functionality is being phased out due to the potential for security breaches. Does this mean that, as of current patches, these EUD guides are out of date?

Post has been edited 14 time(s), last time on May 20 2018, 11:04 pm by blitzburns4.



None.

May 20 2018, 11:09 pm Septhiroth Post #6



Yea sure. Since your changes are pretty simple to make, you don't need to calculate manually address (although it will be helpful to learn about it in the future). You can download EUD Editor 2, which is a program that can inject EUDs into the map for you - Just make sure you save the new map as a (different) name. http://www.staredit.net/topic/17572/



None.

May 20 2018, 11:37 pm blitzburns4 Post #7



Quote from Septhiroth
Yea sure. Since your changes are pretty simple to make, you don't need to calculate manually address (although it will be helpful to learn about it in the future). You can download EUD Editor 2, which is a program that can inject EUDs into the map for you - Just make sure you save the new map as a (different) name. http://www.staredit.net/topic/17572/

Hi Sephroth. Shyguy wants me to say a personal thank you for that tool. It's solved the bulk of our issues.

NOW, though, our current issue is the map becomes locked for scmdraft upon using the EUD editor. Any thoughts on this issue? Will this just have to end up being "the last" change we do for our map? Or is there a workaround so that we can go back and forth.



None.

May 20 2018, 11:43 pm Septhiroth Post #8



Yea it should be the "last" change you do to your map. That's why I suggested to save as the file with a different name. I think the guy whos working on it is releasing another version where you just copy and paste the triggers it injected but im not sure when.



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May 20 2018, 11:52 pm Lanthanide Post #9



Quote from blitzburns4
Edit 3: So evidently these values are only for PC...Which is a big issue. We need help again lol. Do you think these values are the same as Macs? Total roller coaster of emotions here.
The EUDs supported in SCR will work on MAC as well as PC.

It's only in 1.16.1 or earlier that you have to worry about MAC vs PC.

Similarly, the EUDs supported in SCR will NEVER change between versions (although more might be added in future versions, existing ones will not disappear or change address).

Quote from blitzburns4
We also stumbled across this post which hints that EUDs current functionality is being phased out due to the potential for security breaches. Does this mean that, as of current patches, these EUD guides are out of date?
Yes, a lot of documentation around EUDs, having been produced in the 1.16.1 era, are now out of date. We also have better tools now (EUD Editor 2, linked earlier in this thread).



None.

May 21 2018, 12:04 am blitzburns4 Post #10



Quote from Septhiroth
Yea it should be the "last" change you do to your map. That's why I suggested to save as the file with a different name. I think the guy whos working on it is releasing another version where you just copy and paste the triggers it injected but im not sure when.

Thank you Sephiroth. If push comes to shove this is what we will do. It just makes our lives increasingly hard because we're working over a long distance and rely on being able to consisently fine tune. I'm...tempted to ask again about a reliable unlocker but, then again, we cannot afford to corrupt our own map as we're working on it. Especially if we're constantly re-uploading updated versions to Staredit. Which is an issue with these unlockers.

Quote from Lanthanide
[quote=name:Lanthanide]
The EUDs supported in SCR will work on MAC as well as PC.

It's only in 1.16.1 or earlier that you have to worry about MAC vs PC.

Similarly, the EUDs supported in SCR will NEVER change between versions (although more might be added in future versions, existing ones will not disappear or change address).

Yes, a lot of documentation around EUDs, having been produced in the 1.16.1 era, are now out of date. We also have better tools now (EUD Editor 2, linked earlier in this thread).

Duly noted. Sephiroth here helped us a lot by recommending the EUD editor. But do you (and Sephiroth, if you're reading please this feel free to chime in) recommend doing this over just doing these EUDs within SCMDraft? Is that even really a feasible option for us? Any guides you could point us to, given that most of these editorials are out of date? Just to reiterate, our main issue now is that we get locked when we implement this change to supply out of scmdraft. The theory is just do it within scmdraft.

Thank you guys so much in advance.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on May 21 2018, 12:15 am by blitzburns4.



None.

May 21 2018, 12:19 am Lanthanide Post #11



Depends how many EUDs you're doing. If you're just doing a single one, changing the supply of tanks, and nothing else, then I'd recommend doing it as a trigger in your map, so then you don't have to worry about injecting all the time.

But if you're going to more than just change the tank supply, then EUD Editor v2 is definitely the way to go.

EUDs unlock a HUGE amount of possibilities that you can't do in standard editing, like changing weapon damage type, cooldowns, changing unit size, changing supplies granted (so you could make 2 types of supply buildings for example), changing size units take up in transport, for some units you can change unit speed very easily, creating brand new upgrades or spells, changing sight range, making units detectors or have shields or regen HP, make it so you don't need creep or PSI to build buildings, make it so you don't consume drones when building, etc. Lots of graphical effects you can do as well.

So yeah, if you're content with only changing tank supply cost to 3 and nothing else, I'd go the trigger route. But you're missing out of a lot of possible customisations with that.



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May 21 2018, 12:39 am blitzburns4 Post #12



Quote from Lanthanide
Depends how many EUDs you're doing. If you're just doing a single one, changing the supply of tanks, and nothing else, then I'd recommend doing it as a trigger in your map, so then you don't have to worry about injecting all the time.

But if you're going to more than just change the tank supply, then EUD Editor v2 is definitely the way to go.

EUDs unlock a HUGE amount of possibilities that you can't do in standard editing, like changing weapon damage type, cooldowns, changing unit size, changing supplies granted (so you could make 2 types of supply buildings for example), changing size units take up in transport, for some units you can change unit speed very easily, creating brand new upgrades or spells, changing sight range, making units detectors or have shields or regen HP, make it so you don't need creep or PSI to build buildings, make it so you don't consume drones when building, etc. Lots of graphical effects you can do as well.

So yeah, if you're content with only changing tank supply cost to 3 and nothing else, I'd go the trigger route. But you're missing out of a lot of possible customisations with that.

Thank you for your (again) thoughtful response. Few last questions to help me, a newbie, understand what you're getting at here. I apologize if they come across as unintelligent.

1. Can you refer to a good guide or post for learning how to utilize scmdraft for simple EUDs that's still relevant, given what you said earlier about the documentation becoming outdated? I did a quick google search and stumbled across a post provided, courtesy of yourself Lanthanide. I'm assuming this would be the recommended methodology to go forward with EUDs in SCMDraft? (Linked Post)

2. I'm not here to finger point or anything. I'm just happy and appreciative to have a way of going forward that can solve the (current) issue we're having with our map. But while you're here I can't help but pick your brain. Could you expound on Septhiroth point (like his second or third post) that the EUD editors are working on a solution to input triggers into scmdraft? Any timetable? Was this a casual oversight between the main developer of SCMDraft and the EUD Editor? In laymen's terms why did this become an issue in the first place?

3. This is kind of off-topic. But I think it's time I came forward and said the truth about why I keep asking for an unlocker. I figured we can use an unlocker to see, generally, how some maps were designed and use them for 1939. There are kind of two points going on here. But the big one is genuine learning. We can only learn and understand so much from posts online. We need to see how these works are done in these tools firsthand by seeing them in SCMDraft. Their triggers, etc. If the mapmakers were still around I wouldn't even delve into this topic, or ask repeatedly, in the first place but they're not. BUT. Considering you're here...I'd like to pick your brain some about something different.

How does AI relate to the EUDs in terms of usermaps. For 1939 the potential to "up" our game are endless but we already generally know what direction we want to go in for future changes/revamps. The next big topic after unit balance that Shyguy and I have been discussing at length is Artificial Intelligence, given that for 1939 the game is so dependent on all players being[b] there. My question is this. When we play games like DIPLOMACY SUPERGUN or WW3: THE SOVIET ENEMY. Is that all just basic trigger editing? Are those just clever, illusory statistics manipulation and repeating spawn triggers, or is there an actual "smart" AI developed using EUDs.

Best regards,

Blitzburns4

Edit: If I stepped overbounds here in this post, please feel free to ignore Point #3. Points #1 and #2 have to do with unit balance of our map, which is obviously the biggie here.

Post has been edited 8 time(s), last time on May 21 2018, 12:56 am by blitzburns4.



None.

May 21 2018, 1:18 am Lanthanide Post #13



Quote from blitzburns4
1. Can you refer to a good guide or post for learning how to utilize scmdraft for simple EUDs that's still relevant, given what you said earlier about the documentation becoming outdated? I did a quick google search and stumbled across a post provided, courtesy of yourself Lanthanide. I'm assuming this would be the recommended methodology to go forward with EUDs in SCMDraft? (Linked Post)
The earlier post in that linked thread is what I would recommend.

Or you can caculate the EUDs yourself manually, referring to Farty's EUDDB: http://farty1billion.dyndns.org/EUDdb/?pg=entry&id=289

Or use EPD Editor (I don't have a download link for this handy).

Quote from blitzburns4
2. Could you expound on Septhiroth point (like his second or third post) that the EUD editors are working on a solution to input triggers into scmdraft?
EUD Editor v1 supports "view triggers" which gives you the raw trigger data you can add into Scmdraft.

EUD Editor v2 is still in development and does not yet support this functionality. It does not appear to be a high priority feature for the developer.
Quote from blitzburns4
Any timetable? Was this a casual oversight between the main developer of SCMDraft and the EUD Editor? In laymen's terms why did this become an issue in the first place?
No timetable that I am aware of. The developer of Scmdraft 2 is a German, the developer of EUD Editor v2 is a Korean, as far as I am aware they have not communicated with each other at all.

Note that the feature is for EUD Editor to produce a trigger-formatted version of the changes you've selected in the tool (and you can do MANY things in this tool). It is not a trivial piece of work to implement. It also doesn't really have anything to do with scmdraft 2 at all - scmdraft 2 can read and write text triggers, if EUD Editor could read and write text triggers, it still requires a human to take the trigger output from EUD Editor and put it into their map in scmdraft.

Quote from blitzburns4
3. First, how does AI relate to the EUDs in terms of usermaps. For 1939 the potential to "up" our game are endless but we already generally know what direction we want to go in for future changes/revamps. The next big topic after unit balance that Shyguy and I have been discussing at length is Artificial Intelligence, given that for 1939 the game is so dependent on all players being[b] there. My question is this. When we play games like DIPLOMACY SUPERGUN or WW3: THE SOVIET ENEMY. Is that all just basic trigger editing? Are those just clever, illusory statistics manipulation and repeating spawn triggers, or is there an actual "smart" AI developed using EUDs.
I have never played your map nor the ones you are referencing, so I don't really know what you're suggesting.

It is supposedly possible to edit AI with EUDs but I have not tried. There are a couple of threads about it in the SEN forums but they don't have very much information, certainly there's not going to be any tutorial for you to follow. If you want to experiment with editing AI with EUDs then your best bet is just to get familiar with editing AI via modding and how that works, and then EUD is an extension to that.

Depending on how familiar you are with programming in general, I'd expect going from a novice understanding to being able to do something useful is probably going to take you 3 months of effort, that being ~10 hours of learning and experimenting per week. And that's just to do something "useful" - not necessarily what you want. Certainly simulating an adept human player via AI scripting will take a huge amount of effort.

The threshold for editing generic unit and weapon properties with EUDs, especially using EUD Editor v2, is substantially lower - you can get useful results in 30 minutes or less.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 21 2018, 1:29 am by Lanthanide.



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May 21 2018, 7:37 am NudeRaider Post #14

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from blitzburns4
3. This is kind of off-topic. But I think it's time I came forward and said the truth about why I keep asking for an unlocker. I figured we can use an unlocker to see, generally, how some maps were designed and use them for 1939. There are kind of two points going on here. But the big one is genuine learning. We can only learn and understand so much from posts online. We need to see how these works are done in these tools firsthand by seeing them in SCMDraft. Their triggers, etc. If the mapmakers were still around I wouldn't even delve into this topic, or ask repeatedly, in the first place but they're not. BUT. Considering you're here...I'd like to pick your brain some about something different.
We do not support map unprotectors on this site. When a map maker decided to protect their map we honor their decision, regardless of reasons.

What we do offer, for learning purposes, is a trigger viewer.




May 21 2018, 9:47 am Sie_Sayoka Post #15



I'm assuming that your map is a large-scale diplo style map? From my experience hitting map limits within those types of games are always an issue and negatively affect gameplay. Because EUDs are locked to the original map limits they will have the same ccmu/bullet issues as maps did during 1.16.1. I highly suggest that you exhaust all other options before deciding to use EUDs.

Quote from blitzburns4
We agreed that there is a dual issue of macro and micro gameplay. We agreed on making changes to the damage/armor of said unit to balance it, but preferably we'd also hit the statistics that, more intuitively, have to do with the macro use: which is namely mineral/resource cost, and most quintessentially, its supply values The specific unit in question is an unsieged tank. It's just too good for 2 supply out of the 200 limit. I want it to be 3 supply, but aparently I can't edit that?
I don't know how much knowledge you have of map making so I'll just throw out a bunch of ideas for you.

Making a unit 3 supply or any supply can be achieved solely through triggers. It wont be a perfect system as the cost will still be labeled as 2 but you can effectively make each tank cost 3 supply. Here are some systems on how to manage and manipulate supply. All of these systems require you to detect the number of units that a player has. It can be for only one type such as a tank or multiple types. As such it is recommended to use automated triggers to do most of the leg work.

1. Making tanks cost 3 supply. Detect the amount of tanks that a player has and create units (preferrably in an unused area of the map) to add 50% of their supply. For example if the player had 20 tanks (40 supply) create a total of 20 supply for the player in the unused area. Preferably the system would create units that will use the least amount of map resources i.e. 3 bc + 1 vulture.

2. Directly limiting units. This is done most often for units that don't have supply yet still have an impact on a player's overall power (i.e. cannons and turrets) but can be used for regular units as well. You can directly limit the number of units a player has by detecting and removing the unit once it has surpassed a certain threshold e.x. if player commands at least 31 units remove 1 unit (if the limit is to be 30).

3. Limiting supply. Instead of dictating the amount of supply a unit costs you can manipulate the maximum supply a player has. For example the default maximum will be 200 and the player creates a tank. You decrease the maximum amount of supply by 1 so their supply will be 2/199, effectively making a tank cost 3 supply. This method has the upside of using less units than method 1 and being overall cleaner (no mass of units in the corner) at the cost of restricting all supply giving buildings (no players can create depos/cc if you use terran supply).

4. Ignore supply altogether. I think that this system would be the most useful for diplo-style maps. It allows to have 'supply' for both heroes and off-race units as well as customize the cost of 'supply' each unit has. Instead of using supply you use something like DCs and give each unit a corresponding 'supply' value i.e. tank 3, marine 1, vulture 2. This will allow you to keep track of supply using DCs and allow you to go over the limit of 200. Because you use DCs to calculate supply you will need some way of displaying this through the UI. If you have Protoss of Zerg supply free you can just use them at the cost of units similar to method 1. Alternatively you can use the leaderboard if it's not being used or something else.

While none of these will give you the easy option of just editing the supply cost of a unit that EUDs do it will allow you to keep the extended map limits.

Quote
How does AI relate to the EUDs in terms of usermaps. For 1939 the potential to "up" our game are endless but we already generally know what direction we want to go in for future changes/revamps. The next big topic after unit balance that Shyguy and I have been discussing at length is Artificial Intelligence, given that for 1939 the game is so dependent on all players being[b] there. My question is this. When we play games like DIPLOMACY SUPERGUN or WW3: THE SOVIET ENEMY. Is that all just basic trigger editing? Are those just clever, illusory statistics manipulation and repeating spawn triggers, or is there an actual "smart" AI developed using EUDs.

I'd suggest not using a custom AI script as even with a good script the computer will still be stupid and sometimes 'unpredictable' depending on terrain and player actions. Using regular triggers should give you more consistent gameplay. Even if you do make a 'smart' AI it will be extremely difficult to balance it. I believe that some EUDs can be used as conditions and still allow you to keep extended limits. However, I'm unsure of the practicality and scope of these EUDs.

I've never played Supergun but I have played a lot of WW3. It's all done with SCMD or some other regular editor. You can create convincing computer actions depending on how much time you sink into it. The reason why the computer of WW3 feels intelligent and engaging is because of the number of triggers and conditions put into its behavior. I haven't opened up the map to look but I can make a few guesses as to what they are.

1. Timed attacked. The simplest of the behavior triggers. When the countdown timer resets it will create and order units to attack the players. This ensures that there is constant pressure on the players. These are also probably the only types of triggers that are on preserve.

2. Scripted invasions. To make gameplay consistent and ensure that the players know the map the purpose of scripted invasions is to provide some challenge and delay, or push back, the advance of the players.

3. Reactionary attacks. This is the bulk of what can be seen as a 'smart' AI. The conditions for these attacks can be location, commanded, or a combination of these and others to give unique behavior to the computer based on the players' actions. Because the triggers are reactionary it will allow for greater control and challenge of the computer attacks.

Here is another example of maps that use reactionary triggers to give the illusion of a smart AI. KotK uses mainly location and kill based conditions to trigger spawns.


If you still want to use EUDs or want to discuss mapping further you can join the discord and ask us there.



None.

May 21 2018, 11:39 am blitzburns4 Post #16



Quote from NudeRaider
We do not support map unprotectors on this site. When a map maker decided to protect their map we honor their decision, regardless of reasons.

What we do offer, for learning purposes, is a trigger viewer.

This is low-key one of the best posts in this entire thread in terms of giving us a lead. Thank you SO MUCH NudeRaider. (Also nice name lol!) The specific link you provided doesn't seem to work/provides an error when we downloaded it- but we're going to try to figure it out on our end and if we can't we'll swing back by. The big thing is knowing what to look for. Thank you!

Quote from Lanthanide
No timetable that I am aware of. The developer of Scmdraft 2 is a German, the developer of EUD Editor v2 is a Korean, as far as I am aware they have not communicated with each other at all.

Note that the feature is for EUD Editor to produce a trigger-formatted version of the changes you've selected in the tool (and you can do MANY things in this tool). It is not a trivial piece of work to implement. It also doesn't really have anything to do with scmdraft 2 at all - scmdraft 2 can read and write text triggers, if EUD Editor could read and write text triggers, it still requires a human to take the trigger output from EUD Editor and put it into their map in scmdraft.

So I've been up all night with playtesting (and otherwise messing around and having fun) and mostly talked about everything discussed in this thread. First off, good news! We got the three supply working. I'll probably re-upload 1939 after some further playtesting today. But more on point, he's a computer science major and really knows the kinks, so to speak, and he spent all night elaborating on a lot of topics in this thread. This was one of them. So evidently what I posted was kind of ignorant- something like that EUD Editor he said could literally take YEARS of work for a single person to create. I also didn't realize the Herculean effort it took to do EUDs in general prior to this editor. (Which makes sense, considering I didn't even know these existed before yesterday.)

Quote from Lanthanide
It is supposedly possible to edit AI with EUDs but I have not tried. There are a couple of threads about it in the SEN forums but they don't have very much information, certainly there's not going to be any tutorial for you to follow. If you want to experiment with editing AI with EUDs then your best bet is just to get familiar with editing AI via modding and how that works, and then EUD is an extension to that.

Depending on how familiar you are with programming in general, I'd expect going from a novice understanding to being able to do something useful is probably going to take you 3 months of effort, that being ~10 hours of learning and experimenting per week. And that's just to do something "useful" - not necessarily what you want. Certainly simulating an adept human player via AI scripting will take a huge amount of effort.

Ohhh kay. Between you and my friend I think I got the memo. Speaking of being ignorant. I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise that I [/i]also didn't realize how flippin' difficult it is to work with AI in an RTS Game. To the point that 20 years later there are literal research institutions doing research devoted to it. The main thing my friend and I just spent doing was trying to get even the Insane AI to do anything. And playing around with some default options and seeing what we can feasibly work with. This leads us to what is probably the best for last post in the entire thread.

I will say that I'm somewhat puzzled still about why we can't get one of those damned complicated AIs in our usermap/custom games without some serious legwork. (What's this running simultaneous AI shenanigans?) But I'm reassured that its not a practical solution to this AI inquiry. I digress.

Quote from Sie_Sayoka
I don't know how much knowledge you have of map making so I'll just throw out a bunch of ideas for you.

You pretty much hit the "conventional" trigger options right on the head. So I have compliment you there. Your contribution and intuition is incredible for a noob like me, even if I have seen these in action before. And funnily enough every one of those options is probably a [i]better
system than what is currently the system for 1939. If for no other reason than it allows for better control of the game from a design standpoint. Diplomacy Infinity, (Option #4) Civil War Missouri (Option #1.5) Hearts of Iron 3: TGS (Options #2 and Option #3) are all maps that are the envy of any map creator. And, building off of what you said, the alternative (Option #1.5, I guess?) extension of this idea is to not let players build any unit at all, and provide it for them on a time-based basis. In retrospect, 1939 probably should have been built on the foundations you just elaborated on for a supply system. Though, in my defense, I'm not the original creator and, though its more "sloppy", it allows for more "role-play"esque freedom and fits the theme that the title "1939" is more an aesthetic. While the relative power at the start of the game is correlative to history. It's still anyone's game. And it does help it stand out from its contemporaries despite its evident design problems. (Which my friend and I are trying to remedy as best we can.)

The real "meat" of your post that interests us, however, is your second half.

Quote from Sie_Sayoka
I'd suggest not using a custom AI script as even with a good script the computer will still be stupid and sometimes 'unpredictable' depending on terrain and player actions. Using regular triggers should give you more consistent gameplay. Even if you do make a 'smart' AI it will be extremely difficult to balance it. I believe that some EUDs can be used as conditions and still allow you to keep extended limits. However, I'm unsure of the practicality and scope of these EUDs.

I've never played Supergun but I have played a lot of WW3. It's all done with SCMD or some other regular editor. You can create convincing computer actions depending on how much time you sink into it. The reason why the computer of WW3 feels intelligent and engaging is because of the number of triggers and conditions put into its behavior. I haven't opened up the map to look but I can make a few guesses as to what they are.

1. Timed attacked. The simplest of the behavior triggers. When the countdown timer resets it will create and order units to attack the players. This ensures that there is constant pressure on the players. These are also probably the only types of triggers that are on preserve.

2. Scripted invasions. To make gameplay consistent and ensure that the players know the map the purpose of scripted invasions is to provide some challenge and delay, or push back, the advance of the players.

3. Reactionary attacks. This is the bulk of what can be seen as a 'smart' AI. The conditions for these attacks can be location, commanded, or a combination of these and others to give unique behavior to the computer based on the players' actions. Because the triggers are reactionary it will allow for greater control and challenge of the computer attacks.

Here is another example of maps that use reactionary triggers to give the illusion of a smart AI. KotK uses mainly location and kill based conditions to trigger spawns.

This post was literally what we spent all night discussing. And, finally when we've pretty much given up on it, you come along and answer everything we were puzzling over in one fell swoop!! And that's pretty much the exact theory we've been operating by during this last two-day research quest. So you coming and making this post is actually very informative for us. Please let me pick your brain some more.

I'm starting out of order. I apologize.

2. I'm not sure if you're familiar with 1939, the map myself and my friend are working on. But this is the extent of the current "AI" we have effectively implemented. I'm not going to lie: I have the hots for this type of trigger. The most recent iteration of the 1939 map I'm working on has a Polish rebellion and, especially, a reworked Spanish rebellion that are premised on this exact concept. (BOTH of which aren't present on prior versons like NV2 or Final. Version SE has the Civil war though.) The obvious issue, that even an ameteur like myself can recognize, is that this type of AI is downright punishing for noobs and, for veterans, sort of a "nonstarter". For example, in Spain's case- I had to go back and delete a second tank because knowledgable Spain players (including myself heh) could keep four tanks safe from the spawns and use those tanks to invade a noob France. Which is ironic for a country that's supposed to be ravaged by a civil war.

Your commentary on "AI" points #1 and #3 is what really have me intrigued. There are SO many questions I have regarding this that I could probably talk your head off for hours. So I'll keep things punctual:
1) Are these methods accomplishible via scmdraft's natural trigger editing?
2) Do these methods have any sort of utilization of the game's natural AI coding? [So the "Insane AI", for example, which was the control for a hours-long experiment that invariably failed. The AI simply does nothing after the start of the game, and certainly doesn't utilize 1939's hero units or perform even rudimentary functions.)
3) Is there any way to randomize this process, to avoid the issues of the above commentary of the last passage. Are there easy way to make it more illusory?
4) I'd hate to pry, but do you have any personal experience designing these types of triggers? Would you mind if I swung back around possibly to ask questions or for some personal commentary?

Thank you SO MUCH (*everyone*) I think everything here was very intelligent and knowledgeable and inspiring. Hopefully we can utilize it to make some cool changes and not just give lip service.

- blitzburns4

Edit 8:02 AM:

I'm such an idiot...This is what I get for skipping to the good parts with the AI.

Quote from Sie_Sayoka
I'm assuming that your map is a large-scale diplo style map? From my experience hitting map limits within those types of games are always an issue and negatively affect gameplay. Because EUDs are locked to the original map limits they will have the same ccmu/bullet issues as maps did during 1.16.1. I highly suggest that you exhaust all other options before deciding to use EUDs.

WHAT>!?!?

Ugh. I'm too tired to even ask the why of this but it makes sense. Things were going too good to be true. During a playtest we had a CCMU issue but didn't think much of it cause it was just two players and it promptly disappeared. I thought Blizzard themselves fixed this!!

I'm passing out. I need to lay down and digest this. CCMU is the bane of all usermap players' existence.

Post has been edited 12 time(s), last time on May 21 2018, 12:09 pm by blitzburns4.



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May 21 2018, 1:31 pm Sie_Sayoka Post #17



Quote from blitzburns4
(Option #1.5, I guess?) extension of this idea is to not let players build any unit at all, and provide it for them on a time-based basis.
This type of system is used in WW3 for heavy industy? buildings that spawn a low amount of units each turn. I'd advise against using it for the bulk of players' army as it decreases the interactivity and options for the player. Limiting the production capabilities of players to only cities forces a set army composition and spawn rate. By removing the players' ability to construct units it creates more linear gameplay. For example minerals can ONLY be used for upgrades (if you use them in your map) or buildings; as opposed to teching up, buildings, army construction, foreign aid, etc.

That's my opinion on it at least.

Quote
Your commentary on "AI" points #1 and #3 is what really have me intrigued. There are SO many questions I have regarding this that I could probably talk your head off for hours. So I'll keep things punctual:
1) Are these methods accomplishible via scmdraft's natural trigger editing?
2) Do these methods have any sort of utilization of the game's natural AI coding? [So the "Insane AI", for example, which was the control for a hours-long experiment that invariably failed. The AI simply does nothing after the start of the game, and certainly doesn't utilize 1939's hero units or perform even rudimentary functions.)
3) Is there any way to randomize this process, to avoid the issues of the above commentary of the last passage. Are there easy way to make it more illusory?
4) I'd hate to pry, but do you have any personal experience designing these types of triggers? Would you mind if I swung back around possibly to ask questions or for some personal commentary?

1. Yes. Everything should be easily achievable through SCMD.

2. No. None of this uses AI scripts. The AI scripts require certain conditions to be met in order to function normally. Refer to this post. I'd advise against using an AI script at all since triggers are much more controllable and can do more.

3. Yes. You can randomize switches (or many other randomization methods) as a condition to make the AI perform different actions. I'm not sure what you mean about the above commentary. 'Making it more illusory' would assume that you can see how the trigger functions beforehand. Can you give me an example of what aspect you'd like to make more illusory?

4. I haven't created triggers for this type of map but I've messed around with computer attacks before. You're welcome to ask as many questions as you want.


Quote
WHAT>!?!?

Ugh. I'm too tired to even ask the why of this but it makes sense. Things were going too good to be true. During a playtest we had a CCMU issue but didn't think much of it cause it was just two players and it promptly disappeared. I thought Blizzard themselves fixed this!!

I'm passing out. I need to lay down and digest this. CCMU is the bane of all usermap players' existence.
EUDs use the architecture from 1.16.1 or some magic coding bullshit like that which is why you can't use extended limits with them. It would be nice if we could have both EUDs and extended limits but there's been no talk AFAIK of that happening.



None.

May 21 2018, 9:01 pm Lanthanide Post #18



Quote from Sie_Sayoka
3. Limiting supply. Instead of dictating the amount of supply a unit costs you can manipulate the maximum supply a player has. For example the default maximum will be 200 and the player creates a tank. You decrease the maximum amount of supply by 1 so their supply will be 2/199, effectively making a tank cost 3 supply.
How do you even achieve your specific example of reducing maximum supply to 199 for Terran? It'd be possible with Zerg since hatchery gives only 1 supply, but I doubt it's possible for Terran without using EUDs since they get +8 and +10 supply from depot and CC. Protoss get 9 supply from a Nexus so you could do some annoying shenanigans with that, but I think it'd end up being more difficult (and require more units) than your other approach.

Quote from Sie_Sayoka
EUDs use the architecture from 1.16.1 or some magic coding bullshit like that which is why you can't use extended limits with them. It would be nice if we could have both EUDs and extended limits but there's been no talk AFAIK of that happening.
They could implement support for both, but it'd be a fair chunk of extra work. Best way to handle it would be to make a new map version, eg BW 1.22, that supports the extended limits and EUDs simultaneously, and it would then result in 2 different sets of EUD addresses, legacy (1.16) and the new set.

So far their interest in EUDs seems to have been to support existing EUD maps that Koreans have been playing for a long time, more-so than it has been to support brand new EUD maps.



None.

May 21 2018, 10:05 pm Sie_Sayoka Post #19



Quote from Lanthanide
How do you even achieve your specific example of reducing maximum supply to 199 for Terran? It'd be possible with Zerg since hatchery gives only 1 supply, but I doubt it's possible for Terran without using EUDs since they get +8 and +10 supply from depot and CC. Protoss get 9 supply from a Nexus so you could do some annoying shenanigans with that, but I think it'd end up being more difficult (and require more units) than your other approach.

You're right. It was just a very simple example. In practice the system will have intervals of 8 or 10 and use units to fill in those gaps. So with 1 tank it'd create a 1 supply unit making it 197/200 until 192/192 where it will remove the filler units.



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May 22 2018, 5:11 am blitzburns4 Post #20



Just a quick update for everyone. We've opted to lay this topic of EUDs and AIs to rest until we fix the Unit balance proper, which is a more pressing issue.

Thank you everyone for the amazing responses.



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