Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 UMS Mapmaking Assistance > Topic: Program to read-only Protected maps
Program to read-only Protected maps
Dec 17 2015, 5:48 pm
By: JCarrill0  

Dec 17 2015, 5:48 pm JCarrill0 Post #1



I was wondering if you guys know of a program that can read maps.
I know SENs "we dont allow unprotectors here" policy, but Im more into looking at a program that will allow me to "open" a map in read-only format.

I cant seem to find any descent unprotectors these days, but honestly i could care less cuz I'm not trying to "steal" the map, Im just trying to read it/understand how certain things were done.

Surly this idea has been brought up before, thus a program should exist?

PS - If this topic does get closed, (in the event it starts an uproar, can someone send me a PM, cuz I really am looking for a solution here.




Dec 17 2015, 5:56 pm jjf28 Post #2

Cartography Artisan

SEN's pretty heavily in favor of being able to view protected maps :)

TrigViewer - for triggers, ofc
Chkdraft - for everything that's implemented so far (save and copy pastes tend to be disabled)
LocationRipper - exports text based locations

There are prolly more but ehh.



TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Dec 17 2015, 8:25 pm Roy Post #3

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

The general advice is: if you don't know how to do something, ask the community. There are many problems with going through someone else's map:

  • Without acquiring permission, you're disrespecting the author, even if your actions aren't malicious
  • Deciphering an unprotected map is difficult, since all strings are generally removed
  • The method used in the map may not be the best solution, and you'll never learn of alternate solutions through it
  • If anything new is learned, you deny others the opportunity to learn or work through unexplored mapmaking challenges

If at all possible, the best course of action would be to contact the mapmaker. As you suggest, many people just protected their maps to prevent people from stealing them, but they would be happy to share the unprotected version on an individual basis more often than not. If you're looking at some sort of trigger system, a good place to learn about many simple and advanced systems is within our wiki. Finally, if you still need help solving a problem for your specific map, you should start an assistance topic presenting the problem and allow the community to brainstorm and provide solutions for you.

Just as an example: many aspiring bound makers would use switches to keep track of levels (Set Switch 1 = Level 1, Clear Switch 1 + Set Switch 2 = Level 2), because that's what all other mapmakers did. In hindsight, it's ludicrous to maintain a bunch of binary switches for linear progression when a Death Counter works much more fluidly (1 Death = Level 1, 2 Deaths = Level 2). But you wouldn't learn this by looking at other maps.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 17 2015, 8:32 pm by Roy.




Dec 17 2015, 8:33 pm Sand Wraith Post #4

she/her

(1) if most authors only protect a map to prevent stealing, and the person deprotecting doesn't steal the map, how does this disrespect the author?

(2) "it's hard so don't do it"

(3) "you're too stupid to think of alternate solutions on your own/consider asking the community for alternate solutions"

(4) uhhhhhhhhhhhh what? the fuck? really?




Dec 17 2015, 8:42 pm Roy Post #5

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Sand Wraith
(1) if most authors only protect a map to prevent stealing, and the person deprotecting doesn't steal the map, how does this disrespect the author?
Because that's an assumption. You don't know the author's intent, and using speculation as justification is in itself disrespectful.

Quote from Sand Wraith
(2) "it's hard so don't do it"
More that it's likely more difficult than coming up with your own solution or posing it to the community. Path of least resistance.

Quote from Sand Wraith
(3) "you're too stupid to think of alternate solutions on your own/consider asking the community for alternate solutions"
That's not what I'm saying, but I suppose this technique makes it easier for you to reply to me. Read the last part of my post for an actual example if you're confused on my point. It's truly naive to believe that every mapmaker has used the most optimal solution for every map since the dawn of time, especially since we're still discovering new things today. Even essential, core things like hyper triggers have been revised and improved, though you're more than likely to see the simple Wait(0)x63x4 solution in most maps.

Quote from Sand Wraith
(4) uhhhhhhhhhhhh what? the fuck? really?
We are a community; knowledge-sharing is valued here at SEN.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 17 2015, 8:47 pm by Roy.




Dec 17 2015, 9:17 pm Sand Wraith Post #6

she/her

I think you've missed the point that none of your reasons are substantial. Point 4 is legitimately completely absurd. Nothing about opening a map somehow locks the opener away from posting about their knowledge.

Similarly for (3).

Ultimately you still don't know why the person wants to open the map.




Dec 17 2015, 9:52 pm Roy Post #7

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Sand Wraith
I think you've missed the point that none of your reasons are substantial. Point 4 is legitimately completely absurd. Nothing about opening a map somehow locks the opener away from posting about their knowledge.
Maybe I'm being cynical; I'd like to see examples of cases where this has happened, if it is indeed not the case. People post discoveries, and people ask for help, but I can't think of anyone who comes here to start a discussion on some existing solution (unless they already have a discovery pertaining to it).

Quote from Sand Wraith
Similarly for (3).
I don't think you understand that bullet. In the most abstract sense: when you're presented with a solution, it becomes more difficult to think outside of the given solution. In the psychology of problem solving, it's called "Mental Set", which inhibits creating innovative solutions to problems.

Quote from Sand Wraith
Ultimately you still don't know why the person wants to open the map.
JCarrill0 said exactly why he wants to open the map: he wants to look at it to learn by example. The tools jjf provided may very well be sufficient in accomplishing this.




Dec 17 2015, 10:18 pm JCarrill0 Post #8



Thanks for the tip guys.
as for contact the author part... yeah... I would most likely do this before trying to open the map myself.

The reason I wanted a program to open and look around is because well yeah I liked a specific idea that was done and wondering if i could recreate it.
I tried using CHKdraft to open a map thinking it allows read only, but in the end, it did nothing, no error opening map, nothing, just did nothing.
as for trigger edit, i will look into this. Location Ripper seems useful too.

As for disrespecting the author, I guess that all from a point of view. I can see your point on how you viewed it as "Disrespectful" but I do not see it that way. Plus if I could contact the author, I would. Fact that the map/game is nearly 20 years old.... not sure the intent goes that far that if the author is somehow found, finds out I unprotected their specific map, and flips out over it... chances are pretty slim.
I say that because the map itself would not be taken or used, but perhaps a method would be. If the said player was active and finds my map and identifies that i use their specific method that they somehow recognize and gets upset, I will deal with the issue at that said time. I think at that point, the "disrepect" could be discussed.

In other news, I found a way that I was looking for, Seems an unprotector is really a waste of time, thus why I was looking for an read-Only Program. Heck I remember a method shown by "Clokr_" (I think) some time ago on how certain maps can be unprotected with a simple notepad. in the end A map unprotectors doesn't preserve the map anyway. I have the classic SCUnprotect that archn "Created" (Which is a lie), and OSMap2, but these don't help me, they more like "Replace stuff to make it open in a map editor" which kinda doesn't help me, I need something I can open up and look at like a PDF file does do a DOC.. lol
I was sure one existed.

PS - Roy, as always I appreciate the feedback, and moving the thread to the appropriate place as intended, I originally posted the thread, but moved it at the last second thinking it was in the wrong spot.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 17 2015, 10:24 pm by JCarrill0.




Dec 17 2015, 10:20 pm jjf28 Post #9

Cartography Artisan

Quote
I tried using CHKdraft to open a map thinking it allows read only, but in the end, it did nothing, no error opening map, nothing, just did nothing.

Could I get a copy of the map please?



TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Dec 17 2015, 10:39 pm JCarrill0 Post #10



Quote from jjf28
Quote
I tried using CHKdraft to open a map thinking it allows read only, but in the end, it did nothing, no error opening map, nothing, just did nothing.

Could I get a copy of the map please?

This is one of those maps I had an issue with. But I no longer need the maps so by all means have it. When I opened it, I found out my method worked way better. I could not open this with your program (mind you it I haven't download the newest one you have) if that even makes a difference.




Dec 17 2015, 10:56 pm jjf28 Post #11

Cartography Artisan

Unfortunately I was able to open it off-the-bat http://puu.sh/lZua9/c4818cb651.jpg. Could be something like the unicode in the map name+system settings causing problems, also the ever-problematic need to unblock downloads; either way, glad you worked your problem out :)



TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Dec 18 2015, 1:47 am Sand Wraith Post #12

she/her

Quote from Roy
Maybe I'm being cynical; I'd like to see examples of cases where this has happened, if it is indeed not the case. People post discoveries, and people ask for help, but I can't think of anyone who comes here to start a discussion on some existing solution (unless they already have a discovery pertaining to it).

Cynical? You're literally wrong. Looking up a example literally cannot stop someone from asking "are there any other possible solutions." If they don't ask this or want to start a new discussion, they were never that interested to begin with and were solely interested in having something that works.

Quote from Roy
Quote from Sand Wraith
Similarly for (3).
I don't think you understand that bullet. In the most abstract sense: when you're presented with a solution, it becomes more difficult to think outside of the given solution. In the psychology of problem solving, it's called "Mental Set", which inhibits creating innovative solutions to problems.

No, I'm not saying anything about "finding alternate solutions" or "ability to find new solutions." I'm talking about "not everyone cares about finding every (best) solution for every problem." Ergo, it's not a problem to look at an example if one simply wants a working solution.

Neither of the above two points are helped by people telling others to "just use the search feature, this problem has been solved before". This sort of attitude pretty pervasive and directly inhibits people's motivation to open discussions on existing solutions.

Quote from Roy
Quote from Sand Wraith
Ultimately you still don't know why the person wants to open the map.
JCarrill0 said exactly why he wants to open the map: he wants to look at it to learn by example. The tools jjf provided may very well be sufficient in accomplishing this.

I wasn't talking about JCarrill0 specifically. You listed your point as a "problem," I'm simply pointing out that it isn't [logical, relevant].




Dec 18 2015, 5:02 am Corbo Post #13

ALL PRAISE YOUR SUPREME LORD CORBO

TL;DR Says the SEN Rules always:

Quote
Map Unprotection & Map Stealing
SEN supports the rights of map creators to dictate what is done with the maps which they create. You are allowed to submit maps that you have created with any protection or lack thereof that you, as the author choose.
Posting of unprotectors or links to unprotectors is not allowed. However, tasteful discussion and debate of the protection issue is permitted. (Tasteful, discussion, and debate are all key words.)
Release of maps that have been protected or unprotected without the author's permission is not allowed.
Release of stolen maps and map stealing are strictly prohibited.

GG.



fuck you all

Dec 18 2015, 5:47 am Roy Post #14

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Sand Wraith
Cynical? You're literally wrong. Looking up a example literally cannot stop someone from asking "are there any other possible solutions." If they don't ask this or want to start a new discussion, they were never that interested to begin with and were solely interested in having something that works.
First off, this is all speculation, so your liberal use of "literally" is misplaced. Secondly, getting an answer means there's no need to approach the community, which is perfectly fine, except that you're retrieving the answer through unethical means, and the next person with a similar problem will be faced with the same scenario.

Perhaps you don't think it's a matter of ethics, so let me give a quick analogy. If you're trying to set up a home theater system in your house and can't figure it out, it's not okay to lockpick your way into the neighbor's house to see how their system is set up. Sure, the neighbors only have a lock on their door to prevent thieves, so you could justify that since you aren't stealing anything, it should be perfectly fine. But it's not.

Could you please clarify what you're arguing here, exactly? Is it because an answer can't be readily found without starting a discussion, subverting a mapmaker's efforts to protect their map is acceptable? That may be your personal stance, and it was the stance of the Open Source Movement back in the day (which is why the subject of unprotectors is always a heated debate), but SEN's official policy is to respect the protection (or lack thereof) of maps for mapmakers (as Corbo highlighted above).

As a side note: unprotectors came in a wave against knowledge-hoarding. There was a time where people would figure out how to do certain things, and for whatever reason, they wanted to keep it a secret. Disabling stacked Dark Templar is one I distinctly remember. In any case, SEN has chosen the path against unprotectors, and in order to make unprotectors obsolete, we need to have solid documentation on all major mapmaking techniques. On a community level, point #4 is a problem, as avoiding a discussion will perpetually limit the community's public knowledge on mapmaking.

Quote from Sand Wraith
No, I'm not saying anything about "finding alternate solutions" or "ability to find new solutions." I'm talking about "not everyone cares about finding every (best) solution for every problem." Ergo, it's not a problem to look at an example if one simply wants a working solution.
Yes, not everyone cares about respecting the choice of the mapmaker to protect their map, and there's nothing we can do about that. However, the list I made is to illustrate the problems of this approach, and how much someone cares about these problems is subjective. Having an inferior solution is a detrimental possibility, even if any solution can be considered sufficient.

Quote from Sand Wraith
Neither of the above two points are helped by people telling others to "just use the search feature, this problem has been solved before". This sort of attitude pretty pervasive and directly inhibits people's motivation to open discussions on existing solutions.
This is a fair point, and it very well may be directly correlated to my observations of a lack of these sorts of discussions for point #4. In fact, the most I've seen new ideas emerge is when someone doesn't search for the solution and just posts an assistance topic, and members of the community come up with their own solution before someone points out that there is a documented solution already in place (a popular example of this is when someone asks how to uniquely track units).

So yes, you are absolutely correct on this, and I don't have an answer on how to improve this aspect of the community.

Quote from Sand Wraith
I wasn't talking about JCarrill0 specifically. You listed your point as a "problem," I'm simply pointing out that it isn't [logical, relevant].
My mistake for assuming you were referring to this scenario specifically. Indeed, I posted generalized issues as I see them, both on an individual and community basis.




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