Staredit Network > Forums > Null > Topic: Diversity in Video Games
Diversity in Video Games
Feb 20 2015, 11:52 pm
By: Sand Wraith  

Feb 20 2015, 11:52 pm Sand Wraith Post #1

she/her

I had this table out with its accompanying study (there is a link inside the table to the study manuscript), http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3586322/table/T1/ , and someone said "there's plenty of diversity in games; you must be blind to not see it" in an argument.

The entire context is "Is increasing diversity of portrayal of women and normalizing the number of protagonists that are women a good idea?" The idea can easily be abstracted, but this is simply what the argument revolved around.

I would simply like to discuss what by what measures could "plenty of diversity in games" be true, with a focus on the context of relatively even distribution of demographics.

Additionally, as a binary question, with minimal context: "Would having a roughly even distribution of male and female protagonists be a good idea?" And any comments as well that might be pertinent to contextualizing your answer.

We'll go from there and see what happens.

I don't see how this could possibly be a bad idea. I think it's a pretty great idea and it would diversify the demographics of consumers in gaming in general. The goal appears sound and I see little reason not to support it, and even less reason to go against it or even reduce diversity in characters and gamer demographics (to the point where I think it's completely irrational and bigoted). Wrt the argument that had transpired: of course there are some practical issues in approaching that goal, but given that the goal is sound and positive (I certainly don't see how it could be negative), surely these practical issues are ones worth fixing.

This topic is more amusing in the meta, but we'll see what happens.




Feb 21 2015, 3:11 am Pr0nogo Post #2



I don't see the lack of diversity in gaming as a problem from a social standpoint, merely an indication of limited writing experience. I also don't think that pandering to (or 'diversifying the demographics of consumers', if you don't like that term in this context) is inherently a good idea for reasons entirely removed from this argument, including but not limited to: dishonesty of the gaming industry and all who inhabit it, the sin of selling a 'labour of love' or attaching any kind of monetary value to what is presumably a piece of work that you actually wanted to create and didn't just make purely for the purpose of generating revenue, and the far greater sin of going into the creation of a video game (or any kind of media, for that matter) with capitalist/consumerist goals in mind in the first place. That being said, just because the lack of diversity isn't a social problem doesn't mean it's not something that could be addressed. If developers found ways to tell stories with acceptable premises and executed those stories well, and they happened to have female cast members (or cast members that are anything besides the traditional cis-white nemeses of tumblrtards worldwide), that's a victory for the developer and anyone who happens to enjoy games with diversity. However, since developers can't find a way to tell a story with an acceptable premise regardless of its cast, I find the prospect of producing quality entertainment with any kind of diversity (or lack thereof) highly unlikely.




Feb 21 2015, 4:20 am jjf28 Post #3

Cartography Artisan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_javitMe8FY#t=106



TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Feb 21 2015, 8:52 am Sand Wraith Post #4

she/her

I don't mind "pandering" as a term as long as it's kept in perspective that whether or not developers (particularly AAA devs in this context) decide to diversify the demographics of the characters, their function remains as pandering to some arbitrary demographic (which may be set to the current audience as well). As for your reasoning: at least it is better articulated than what I have had to deal with. Do you believe one cannot make a living off of by way of generating revenue or am I reading your reply too heavily and you strictly mean you dislike making games with the primary goal of making money?

Developers are finding ways to tell a greater range of stories though. Two, more recent titles that were brought to my attention include "Walking Dead" and "Beyond: Two Souls." (I haven't played either.) Older titles might include "Heavy Rain" and "Mirror's Edge," although their gameplay format seemed a little dry to me. Apart from that: I would like to inquire why "acceptable premises" matter, or to what degree and how you define it, if the creator of a game should have the primary say in the story of the game. (I only ask since "acceptable premises" can float into really strange territory sometimes.)

"However, since developers can't find a way to tell a story with an acceptable premise regardless of its cast, I find the prospect of producing quality entertainment with any kind of diversity (or lack thereof) highly unlikely." LOL! All right, fair enough, but this also mean it wouldn't matter if the cast was diversified since either way it will be shit, no?

bwaaahahahaha




Feb 21 2015, 2:51 pm BloodyZombie117 Post #5

I have no idea what to put here... So I guess I'll just put this here.

All games should let you make your own character. That's why Elder Scrolls, Saints Row, The Sims, and Mass Effect are top tier diversity. I'd rather go about as a character I love and have connection to because I took the time to create them. It's like being God...
Customization is what makes me love a game. That's what got me back into playing Pokemon when X and Y came out. (Of course ORAS had to get rid of the best feature in the game)




Feb 21 2015, 5:08 pm Pr0nogo Post #6



Quote from Sand Wraith
Do you believe one cannot make a living off of by way of generating revenue or am I reading your reply too heavily and you strictly mean you dislike making games with the primary goal of making money?

I find capitalism contemptible at best, but there's not really a better alternative since everything else is just as shitty. Whatever economic system you have, you should never put social status (e.g. more money, more fame, etc.) above the quality of the project that you're producing. This is true for any media, and why most media from all sources are shit - because people pride the revenue over the quality of the title. So in this case, I think that having any kind of goal (primary, secondary, tertiary) involve money is enough to condemn a developer because as soon as you monetarily involve your project, you give up the privilege of being unbiased. Suddenly, tens of thousands of outside stimuli affect your game (you can't say this in your game because it will affect sales; you can't put this in your game because it will affect sales; you must make this blatantly apparent in your game because it affects sales; etc).

Quote from Sand Wraith
I would like to inquire why "acceptable premises" matter, or to what degree and how you define it, if the creator of a game should have the primary say in the story of the game. (I only ask since "acceptable premises" can float into really strange territory sometimes.)

"Acceptable premises" is a loaded term if you don't define it, and I can see that I forgot to do that in my first reply. When you look to story design in any form of media (book, movie, game, comic, et. al.), it's very easy to come across concepts that simply don't work. Tropes like Space Catholics in Warhammer 40,000 or having a Big Tough Protagonist that's uninteresting because they're practically unkillable or have ludicrous power levels without proper in-lore justification (Kerrigan, Kratos, Master Chief, Samus) are examples of this. These premises are unacceptable because they result in a story that, from the get-go, is flawed. Acceptable premises are concepts that could work, if they are executed properly by the developers. These are far more difficult to find, but the most rare gem of them all is finding a story that not only has an acceptable premise, but has proper execution behind it. This reiterates the point I make later in my post, which you quoted below.

Quote from Sand Wraith
LOL! All right, fair enough, but this also mean it wouldn't matter if the cast was diversified since either way it will be shit, no?

From a storytelling perspective, no, it will not matter. This is because developers are retards and can't differentiate between showing and telling, something we learned in kindergarten. They'd rather hand-hold the player through things and cut out communication between the player and the game, instead literally 'telling' them everything they need to know. This is found in tooltips or very obvious floating text, like in the latest Castlevania games where its floating text says "Even Goblin grenades can't break this door down!" instead of having the character say, in dialogue, "This door is more fortified than the others I've come across. I'll have to find another way to breach it!" A simpler example can be found in StarCraft: Brood War's campaigns, where they communicate to the player using tips (e.g. "You can construct a ComSat Station to use Scanner Sweep!") instead of using dialogue.

From a perspective that prides diversity over actual quality (this conversation), I would say that it does matter if the cast was diversified. I was just commenting on the fact that a developer with a diverse cast in their game is no more likely to succeed than a developer with a cookie-cutter cast. In fact, since developers can rarely handle anything more than cookie-cutter, it's likely that a diverse cast will draw too much energy away from other important aspects of the game, like making sure there aren't any bugs in it and making sure its production values aren't that of Demon's Souls. Basically, regardless of which way you rotate your asshole here, you're gonna have to take a shit.

Quote from BloodyZombie117
All games should let you make your own character. That's why Elder Scrolls, Saints Row, The Sims, and Mass Effect are top tier diversity. I'd rather go about as a character I love and have connection to because I took the time to create them. It's like being God...

The problem with this mindset is that nothing in the games you mention actually changes. Your playstyle doesn't change, your story doesn't change. Nothing is different about playing Mass Effect if you're a woman or a man - only minor, trivial contrivances, like 'this character wants to fuck you instead of this character'. These are things that ultimately don't have a shred of impact on the endgame or the metagame. So sure, you get to play the game from a different 'perspective', but is it really that different if you're playing the exact same game? I don't see any diversity in games like these because there's literally nothing diverse about the way they play. They're all the same boring semi-open-world super-limited westernised RPG that failed to catch my attention three console generations ago and still have nothing to offer the genre or the industry as a whole. They're like the hipsters of the gaming world, except they're not alone in why the industry is turning to shit.




Feb 22 2015, 3:56 pm Generalpie Post #7

Staredit Puckwork

http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uploads/digital-library/11313.28005.pdf



None.

Feb 22 2015, 7:20 pm Pr0nogo Post #8



I haven't bothered to read your link in full (mostly due to my distaste for people who, rather than actually contribute their own opinion to a conversation, simply post a link and walk away), but the main problem with the sole position I could find in my twenty seconds of reading (the meat of which I will abstract as your opinion since you were too busy or too apathetic to post your own) is that it relies on sub-par storytelling in order to make the argument that people don't invest in characters. Of course they don't invest in characters like Kratos, who are literally devoid of development across four fucking titles in the God of War franchise. There's nothing for them to invest in! What are they going to talk about? How he's a pale-assed caveman that settles his disputes with carnage and corpses? That's been done so many times before that there's nothing to abstract as original content or even entertaining execution of a tired trope. If a story with an acceptable premise that was well-thought out was executed decently and presented a polished title with characters that undergo some form of evolution throughout the game, people would have a much easier time becoming attached to those digital individuals. If you have a further argument to posit I'd like to read it, but only if it comes from your keyboard and not some gregarious link on the internet. Though, to be fair, the same goes for jjf, since he was just as much of a lazy bastard as you. I haven't even bothered to click his link.




Feb 22 2015, 7:49 pm jjf28 Post #9

Cartography Artisan

Mine was related humor, wasn't intending to contribute :P



TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Feb 24 2015, 7:49 am Sacrieur Post #10

Still Napping

Check your privilege pronogo.



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