Staredit Network > Forums > Lite Discussion > Topic: StarCraft Map Cracker 2.86!
StarCraft Map Cracker 2.86!
Nov 29 2012, 4:05 am
By: Zhuinden
Pages: < 1 2 3 49 >
 

Nov 29 2012, 11:11 pm Lanthanide Post #21



Quote from payne
We are hurting the whole community due to a few map-maker's irrational paranoia about their work being stolen.
I actually didn't read all of your post, but I saw Azrael quoted this.

I don't think my stance is "irrational" or "paranoid", and it also wasn't about it "being stolen". My problem with the few knock-offs that were made for DSN is that they still kept my name on it, as if I had made it, even though the quality of the maps was clearly inferior to my own. This was part of a deliberate attempt to get people to play 'their version' of the map, by duping unsuspecting players into joining the game with a map that had the same name and lobby-appearance as the one I created.

Furthermore I definitely was not hurting the community. If you go look at the (very long) thread for my map in the showcase forum, you will discover about 5 or 6 people who joined SEN purely to comment on that thread. I brought people to SEN, by creating a high quality map that people wanted to play. Map protection contributed to my ability (and indeed willingness) to create such a high-quality and popular map.

I wouldn't have minded too much if the knock-offs had renamed the map to something else, put their own name in with credit to myself (I credit the direct antecedents of my own version, as well as the distant ancestors in the team names). That way their version could freely compete against mine on battle.net, rather than leeching off my success for their own ends.

Really it's just like piracy of physical goods: instead of putting the hard effort into making their own luxury handbags or luggage, it's much easier just to pirate Prada's and sell it on the black/grey market. Trading on established reputation to make your own profit is deplorable.



None.

Nov 29 2012, 11:27 pm Pr0nogo Post #22



Quote from Azrael
It is. You're violating the rights of people for your personal betterment.

Legal rights?

Quote from name:Blizzard
This software program (the "Program"), any printed materials, any on-line or electronic documentation, and any and all copies and derivative works of such software program and materials are the copyrighted work of Blizzard Entertainment, a division of Davidson & Associates, Inc., or its suppliers. All use of the Program is governed by the terms of the End User License Agreement which is provided below ("License Agreement"). The Program is solely for use by end users according to the terms of the License Agreement. Any use, reproduction or redistribution of the Program not in accordance with the terms of the License Agreement is expressly prohibited.

[...]

2. Ownership. All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Program and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, methods of operation, moral rights, any related documentation, and "applets" incorporated into the Program) are owned by Blizzard Entertainment or its licensors. The Program is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. All rights are reserved. The Program contains certain licensed materials and Blizzard's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

Copyright © 1997 Blizzard Entertainment. All Rights Reserved.

Full EULA for StarEdit

Nowhere in the entire document does it grant rights to mappers.

According to intellectual property law, mappers have legal ownership over original, intangible assets such as, "musical, literary, and artistic works; discoveries and inventions; and words, phrases, symbols, and designs." This means that they legally own some content that is held within the map, but not the map itself.

I would go far enough to say that using a map unprotector for the express purpose of learning to do something ("educational purposes") can easily translate into having a broader knowledge base for the community as a whole, thereby no longer being for your sole, singular benefit. Make of that what you will; mappers do not have rights to the maps they create, nor the triggers they formulate - only the story, characters, and such content that they craft and implement within the map itself.




Nov 29 2012, 11:39 pm Azrael Post #23



Quote from Pr0nogo
Quote from Azrael
It is. You're violating the rights of people for your personal betterment.

Legal rights?

No. This is what they call a "straw man".

The rest of your post is irrelevant to the discussion.




Nov 30 2012, 12:00 am Pr0nogo Post #24



My post would have been an argument from ignorance, because I didn't understand your post - hence the question mark on the end of 'Legal rights'.

Please elaborate on what rights mappers have, because they don't.




Nov 30 2012, 12:07 am Azrael Post #25



The right to not have their hard work stolen, modified, and ruined against their will.

And yes, they do.




Nov 30 2012, 12:10 am Lanthanide Post #26



Copyright.



None.

Nov 30 2012, 1:17 am Heinermann Post #27

SDE, BWAPI owner, hacker.

Right now it's pure paranoia. If people wanted to unprotect a map they can just use Google to get this thing anyway. Tossing it into the downloads section does nothing but make it slightly more accessible for people who want to tinker. People here already know who made what. Nobody is going to "steal" your map. Nobody is going to even try.

Here's what someone could possibly attain from stealing a map:
- Be the only person to ever host his copy.
- Be completely unknown among the below-700 players currently playing UMS games on whichever server he decides to play on.




Nov 30 2012, 1:21 am Dem0n Post #28

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Since unprotectors are not allowed on SEN, we should just leave it at that. As many have said in this thread, if you want an unprotector, just google it and download it. It's like back when people were arguing that we should host the SC2 crack to increase our popularity or whatever bullshit reasoning they had, and everyone said it could just be downloaded somewhere else. It's the same thing here. I personally think protectors are stupid and the idea of your 'property' being stolen is just something someone who is too attached the internet says, but that doesn't even matter in this case. Leave the rule as is, and people can go download it off of some other site.




Nov 30 2012, 1:23 am Moose Post #29

We live in a society.

Quote from Azrael
Quote from Mini Moose 2707
I was actually thinking about making a case for allowing unprotectors for personal and educational use

There are other ways to deal with map corruption (a rare instance in and of itself), the best of which is probably backing the map up, especially before running it through something like Oreo which has a chance of corrupting it.
If you need examples of benevolent use of unprotection, the copy of House of the Haunted and Legacy of Haean in the DLDB right now would not be playable if I didn't fix the strings, as they were rendered unplayable when Blizzard disallowed certain characters from map titles. They are both protected maps and I did not seek permission from (U)Bolt_Head (who has not been active since 2010) or qPirateKing to make their maps playable. (U)Bolt_Head is most likely unaware but we can reasonably asssume his reputation has improved because his map was rendered playable. I did tell qPirateKing and he has thanked me for doing the stringfix so people could play his map in the interim while he was inactive and has not released his own fixed version. (Technically speaking, though I never used an unprotector, I hex edited. :P)

Edit Note: (U)Bolt_Head released unopened copies of all of his maps before going inactive.

Quote from Azrael
The rule is in place because almost all people who use unprotectors do so to infringe on the rights of mapmakers.
This cannot be proven because you do not know when someone unprotects a map. You would only know if they either told people or spread the map around. I would suspect that the cases in which unprotection is misused are much more publicized than those where it is not.

Quote from Azrael
If the mapmaker wanted their map used for personal and educational purposes, they wouldn't have protected it.
I honestly could care less if someone cracked my maps to see how they worked, so long as they didn't spread them or share them with anyone. I would, however, care very much if someone stole my map and edited it themselves and released their own versions. If someone opens my map strictly for educational usage, I am in fact helping someone to learn if they learn by looking at my maps and I am glad to be able to do that for them. In addition to all of this, I wouldn't even know if someone opened one of my maps with an unprotector.

Quote from Kaias
I'd personally like to see the unprotector ban lifted on SEN, just so that we can have a better dialogue on map protection.
Maybe it would help, but there have not been any restrictions on discussion. In fact, the rules have quite for some time stated explicitly that such dialogue is permitted. If you've been holding off on that dialogue, you've been doing so needlessly and should engage people.

Quote from Dem0n
Since unprotectors are not allowed on SEN, we should just leave it at that. As many have said in this thread, if you want an unprotector, just google it and download it. It's like back when people were arguing that we should host the SC2 crack to increase our popularity or whatever bullshit reasoning they had, and everyone said it could just be downloaded somewhere else. It's the same thing here. I personally think protectors are stupid and the idea of your 'property' being stolen is just something someone who is too attached the internet says, but that doesn't even matter in this case. Leave the rule as is, and people can go download it off of some other site.
The thing is that cracking SC2 is actually stealing software which ordinarily costs money.

Quote from payne
... Open Source ...
I am not proposing Open source for mapping, as the term implies free modification and redistribution of the end products. I am also not proposing a shift in creative control or to even allow editing or submission of edited copies of these maps, regardless of whether credit on the map itself is changed or not. When I say educational purposes only, I mean that very strictly, to the point where nobody even knows a map was unprotected unless the person doing so said something.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 30 2012, 1:34 am by Mini Moose 2707.




Nov 30 2012, 1:26 am DevliN Post #30

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
They are both protected maps and I did not seek permission from (U)Bolt_Head (who has not been active since 2010) or qPirateKing to make their maps playable. (U)Bolt_Head is most likely unaware but we can reasonably asssume his reputation has improved because his map was rendered playable.
To be fair, Bolt did post unprotected versions of all his maps years ago, so I assume he'd have no issue with that. :P

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
The thing is that cracking SC2 is actually stealing software which ordinarily costs money.
In this case it was a crack of the SC2 closed beta client, but otherwise I agree.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Nov 30 2012, 1:27 am Moose Post #31

We live in a society.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. And to think I wasted my time with a hex editor! It looks like I'm off the hook unless qPirateKing wants to renounce his gratitude and turn me in. :P




Nov 30 2012, 1:39 am payne Post #32

:payne:

Quote from Azrael
Before anything else, this is a community for mapmakers. Helping people infringe on the rights of mapmakers by going against their clearly stated intentions isn't going to serve any purpose except making some of the very few remaining active mappers feel violated, and rightfully so.
First of all, when I talk about "community", I mean the StarCraft community as a whole, not just SEN's.

Secondly, is an illegitimate right actually a right?

Go back in history and look at civilizations that were agreeing with slavery. They felt like it was their right to own a human. Were they right in doing so? Definitely not (let's not get into moral nihilism). Was it considered a right back then? Yes. How does this relate to the current situation? It helps us realize that the "right of property" that we are talking about might not be as inherently right as we might think. I personally would argue that it's a right that is completely made up and detrimental.

Quote from Lanthanide
I disagree with this, based on my experience.

I created the very popular Desert Strike Night Fixed map on b.net, which I protected. I did have a large fan following, people did recognise my name. I feel there were 3 primary reasons behind this:
1. Frequent updates, with new innovative features and balance changes.
2. High quality map with few bugs
3. Commitment to fixing bugs and exploits

Before my map, there were dozens of Desert Strike maps on battle.net, a lot of them with the same or similar names, and it was always a big of a jackpot as to what version you would be playing when you joined the game. There were exploit ones, old versions with crappy AI / obvious balance problems etc. However with my map, people could be pretty assured of the experience they would get when they played it, and that newer versions would be better in older versions, and although not everyone was happy with all changes, 95%+ of people preferred new versions to old ones.

This was possible because I protected my map. A few people did unprotect it and make their own knock-off versions, and generally I received negative feedback about them (with quite a few people thinking I had made them and asked why I did stupid/buggy things) and they weren't as popular as my ones (clueful people actively avoided joining games). However these maps were still trading on my good name and good reputation and no doubt annoyed many players on battle.net with their bad/buggy gameplay.

I'm sure that if I hadn't protected the map at all, there would have been more knockoffs and it would have created more frustration amongst the fans. Ultimately this would have worsened people's experiences, not improved it.
If you'd leave your map unlocked, and would leave an obvious comment inside the triggers asking the foreign editor to let players know that the version has been modified and that you are not responsible for the changes, how could what has happened to you repeat itself, Lanthanide?
The fact that you were doing frequent updates is probably what would refrain most of the people from even thinking about editing the map (as long as you are available to listen to their suggestions). And then, when you'd stop listening to the community, or would quit map-making, your map would be available for people to modify.
If there are many versions of the same map, who cares? Players only need to remember the one they like and play it, and avoid the ones they don't like. It's not like players are forced to play the bad remakes, and if those bad remakes make certain people happy, why not?

Quote from Azrael
The right to not have their hard work stolen, modified, and ruined against their will.
The work has been done because the person wanted to do the work. It is counter-productive to then prevent other members of the community from accessing it to alter it based on their likes: members that would be able to modify it would be the ones that would probably be able to reproduce it anyways. So you are just saving them time and effort. You'll probably argue that this is exactly what you think is wrong, but as I've said, I do not think having multiple versions of a map is fundamentally wrong.

Quote from Lanthanide
Copyright.
Copyright is utterly stupid. It exists only to protect intellectual property, and I do not think it is a good thing.
Think of it this way: if everyone was educated enough, anyone would be able to, say, "invent" (more like "find out about") the light bulb. So why should the very first person to find out about the light bulb be entitled to a right that allows him to prevent others from using his "invention" against his will. That person only found out about the light bulb before someone else, and possibly because he had an educational advantage over the other persons (and, I guess, creativity as well), which definitely shouldn't entitle that person to think that he should be the only one to access his "invention".
The idea of patents stems from people trying to make money out of their inventions by preventing others from utilizing them. How archaic is that? I would definitely advocate a more elevated way of working than that for a society.

Quote from DevliN
I don't think the community is hurt at all by it. If anyone wants to know how something is done in a protected map they can't unprotect, they can ask here or ask the mapmaker, and chances are they'll have a better experience learning how to do it by being taught with specific explanation rather than staring at triggers.
Someone not understanding triggers wouldn't be able to modify the map much. Thus, the only persons that would modify the map would be the ones who actually benefit from staring at triggers. Additional information or questions can be directed at map-makers after having looked at triggers (which would actually save time to the map-maker, if anything).
Your point on Trigger Viewer is good, though. But I would personally like to advocate in favor of unprotectors and against the idea that protecting a map is right.
So I guess you're right in saying that unprotectors are not necessary as an educational tool. However, I do not like the idea that someone has to redo triggers of a certain system when it has been done by someone else anyways.

Quote from Azrael
The only people hurting the community are the ones who drive mapmakers away by selfishly acting like they own everyone else's hard work.
You are talking about irresponsible persons. A responsible edit of a map would create a decent different version and it wouldn't be a problem at all. The irresponsible persons doing an edit will probably fuck up anyway, and their version will be shit, which will then naturally be turned down by the community (let's see this as the "Invisible Hand").

Quote from Dem0n
Since unprotectors are not allowed on SEN, we should just leave it at that. As many have said in this thread, if you want an unprotector, just google it and download it. It's like back when people were arguing that we should host the SC2 crack to increase our popularity or whatever bullshit reasoning they had, and everyone said it could just be downloaded somewhere else. It's the same thing here. I personally think protectors are stupid and the idea of your 'property' being stolen is just something someone who is too attached the internet says, but that doesn't even matter in this case. Leave the rule as is, and people can go download it off of some other site.
This is a really poor way of thinking. We are currently trying to determine whether or not this rule is now too old. If the rule doesn't make sense to this community then why leave it? What you are saying is "even if the rule doesn't make sense to the community anymore, we shouldn't change it".

Quote from name:Moose
I would suspect that the cases in which unprotection is misused are much more publicized than those where it is not.
Thank god this has been said.
We shouldn't penalize a community for the actions of an irresponsible minority.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 30 2012, 1:47 am by payne.



None.

Nov 30 2012, 1:49 am Mouse Post #33



Holy $#!1 that's a lot of text payne lol... Besides the fact, SCM 2.71 or w/e is already uploaded on SEN. What is the difference if the updated version is put on here? Those programs are already powerful enough to open Special Protector (all versions), Uberation, etc. I've only found a few that were protected by a Korean program. If anything, that latest version would be able to protect far better than anything else that is out there (Except possibly TinyMap which is an amazing compressor). I actually wonder now if it can open something protected with that..



None.

Nov 30 2012, 1:56 am staxx Post #34



Quote from Lanthanide
My problem with the few knock-offs that were made for DSN is that they still kept my name on it.
I've experienced this as well, I would agree it is quite irritating/frustrating. But I also must say, that the people who did try the knock off versions never bothered to play them a 2nd time. None the less, it's still bothersome to have my name associated to a piece of garbage.

I whole heartedly agree with Nude, and Az. Map unprotectors should not be allowed. We've already got trigger viewer and for anything you cant view with it you can just simply ask in the forums. Yes sometimes you want answers immediately instead of waiting for help so that you may avoid delays to your map making, but I feel that if you lack the experience to figure it out on your own, its better to get a response from the forums rather than copy a trigger because most responses found in the forums will give you more information on how the trigger works and further your skills as a map maker.



None.

Nov 30 2012, 2:01 am Sacrieur Post #35

Still Napping

It is morally indecent to unprotect maps against the creator's wishes; however, it is not in and of itself, an immoral act.

There is no pragmatic reason to allow unprotectors to be posted on SEN, but there is a reason to allow this particular one, since it actually protects maps better.

Any map can be successfully replicated with the knowledge that persists on SEN. I support using open source maps, but I am a theorist who only creates systems, which, from what I've seen, all theorists here are more than willing to share their discoveries. There is nobody being barred from knowledge, but they are being barred from editing someone's creative work. As I said, you'll learn the same systems better if you just ask us or peruse the wiki.



None.

Nov 30 2012, 2:01 am Azrael Post #36



Quote from Mini Moose 2707
they were rendered unplayable when Blizzard disallowed certain characters from map titles

As already stated: anyone who might have some rare legitimate use for an unprotector either already has one or can get one elsewhere.

Don't worry, I doubt Blizzard is making any more updates anyways.

Quote from Mini Moose 2707
When I say educational purposes only, I mean that very strictly

There's no way to enforce that. These are programs originally designed for malicious purposes with no way to hold the user accountable.

May as well go downtown and hand out untraceable firearms to everyone but tell them they're only allowed to protect their homes with it.

Quote from payne
First of all, when I talk about "community", I mean the StarCraft community as a whole, not just SEN's.

Same.

Quote from payne
Go back in history and look at civilizations that were agreeing with slavery. They felt like it was their right to own a human. Were they right in doing so? Definitely not (let's not get into moral nihilism).

Correct, they did not have that right. They did not have the right to steal another person, the same way you do not have the right to steal another person's hard work.

You are the slave owner in this situation, trying to take something that you have no right to.

Quote from payne
The work has been done because the person wanted to do the work.

False. The work could have been done for many reasons, but that's rarely one of them. Usually the work is done because the person wants to enjoy the end product; if they could enjoy the end product without doing the work, they would.

Obviously the person did the work so they could enjoy it without worrying about it being altered, which is why they protected it.

Quote from payne
Copyright is utterly stupid.

No, it isn't.

Quote from payne
Someone not understanding triggers wouldn't be able to modify the map much.

Yes, they can.

Quote from payne
You are talking about irresponsible persons.

No, I'm talking about self-entitled persons who don't respect the time and energy that a mapmaker put into their work.

If you want more unprotected maps, make them yourself.

Quote from Sacrieur
it actually protects maps better

Which would only be potentially helpful for the three maps that'll be released in the next five years which might utilize it. It wouldn't help the tens of thousands of maps that have already been released which were protected with something else, or the rest that will continue to be released with alternate forms of protection.

Even if that wasn't the case, your claim is still questionable since someone already mentioned bypassing the protection it uses.

Edit: If the creator actually had a desire to have the program hosted here, which I somehow doubt, he could easily make it so it will only work on maps which it protects, requiring the password to work.

Quote from Dem0n
Since unprotectors are not allowed on SEN, we should just leave it at that.

Yeah, we should.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Nov 30 2012, 2:13 am by Azrael.




Nov 30 2012, 2:16 am Sacrieur Post #37

Still Napping

Not quite, since this unprotector is already accessible to everyone anyway.



None.

Nov 30 2012, 2:18 am Dem0n Post #38

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

If it's already accessible, there's no need to upload it to SEN.




Nov 30 2012, 2:19 am Azrael Post #39



And there's nothing we can do about it anyways, except not contribute to it.

Which we are already doing.

I'm glad this site has always taken the only moral position available here.




Nov 30 2012, 2:19 am payne Post #40

:payne:

Quote from Azrael
Quote from Mini Moose 2707
When I say educational purposes only, I mean that very strictly

There's no way to enforce that. These are programs originally designed for malicious purposes with no way to hold the user accountable.

May as well go downtown and hand out untraceable firearms to everyone but tell them they're only allowed to protect their homes with it.
Your analogy makes no sense and seems to be the same as saying that we should ban internet because people can perpetrate malicious acts within it.

Quote from Azrael
Quote from payne
Go back in history and look at civilizations that were agreeing with slavery. They felt like it was their right to own a human. Were they right in doing so? Definitely not (let's not get into moral nihilism).

Correct, they did not have that right. They did not have the right to steal another person, the same way you do not have the right to steal another person's hard work.

You are the slave owner in this situation, trying to take something that you have no right to.
You mean "Correct, they -did- have that right". They had the right to own a person. They also had the right to steal persons: slaves were mostly people kidnapped from their community because they had lost a war. And then after this initial breach to the right to own your personal self, they legitimized it through reproducing the slave state to kids that had slave parents. And there you go, you have a beautiful cultural assumption on the rightfulness of slavery.
Now fast-forward to nowadays, I am saying that the right to private property is exactly the same: an alienated "right" that became wrongfully ingrained in our culture.

Property should be defined by use and occupancy. And those two concepts do not relate to StarCraft 1 maps because the editing is a virtual task done locally.



None.

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