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DevliN's Mafia: Battlestar Galactica 2.0
Nov 16 2012, 7:24 pm
By: DevliN  

Dec 14 2012, 6:24 pm NudeRaider Post #361

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

GG indeed.

If poison hadn't gone haywire and basically made sure we'd lynch him instead of BIO who was the more logical choice at that point we could actually have won.
Because yes, after night 4 I grew suspicious of Roy and thats why I told Demon to "test" him by hitting his bullet proof vest. He dies, he's mafia, he survives, he's bulletproof. Little did I know he was both, but it wouldn't have mattered as he gave away his vest the same night.
At the same time I wasn't so sure of Demon and Vrael anymore, so maybe we would've gotten another Mafia if Demon had decided to cooperate with me. But yeah, nobody ever listens to me unless they are mafia. :P
Well if we hadn't declared Vrael hub I would've contacted ray (at all) and demon (earlier) so maybe we could've gotten something organized, but when a Mafia manages to become hub it's almost always too late when people start to realize their mistakes.

I got the clue against BIO atk and was pretty sure it's legit the 2nd time it was used.
I also realized "hot" is a clue, but trusted Vrael too much to suspect him at that time. Could have changed if my suspicions had more time to grow though.
I noticed the 15 edits, but didn't care at that time anymore because clearly nobody wanted to work with me, so I let things play out.

Kudos to Roy and Vrael who were the only 2 people I told my role ( :facepalm: ) and still let me live. I had fun while I was alive, even though I now know I was fooled. WP.

I don't like the idea of not being informed of action results. I can excuse the doctor from that because in Devlins setting he doesn't save people, he prevents the hit from happening by being there. But how can someone possibly not know when he was thrown into jail for 1 night? O.o (I know it's just supposed to be a mechanic of non-information, but I still like it when things make sense.) Also this should've been announced somewhere. Noticing it midgame is lame. Or did I miss it somewhere?
I don't like short day and night cycles. Original SEN mafia had 3 days per phase, which was more strategic.
I didn't like that DevliN announced that he won't explain things during the game. I disliked even more that he kept breaking his own rule.
But that's about it. Everything else was really good. Thanks Devlin for hosting such a well organized and interesting game.

The standard victory condition of Mafias is that Mafia wins as soon as they are not outnumbered anymore (which was met). I don't know why DevliN changed it for his game but then decided to go with the old one regardless, but I'm not miffed. We wouldn't have won at that point.




Dec 14 2012, 7:36 pm DevliN Post #362

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Roy
So wait, was Aristocrat a Cylon?
Yeah. He was correct in assuming that with two Vigilantes, one had to be a Cylon. He was the Cylon. :)

Quote from Azrael
The Cylon victory condition was:

Quote
The Cylons win when their current votes outnumber the Crewmembers' max vote capability on any given day.

This never happened at any time.
I ended the last game this exact same way, and I seem to recall you defending it. :P Though there could have been a chance that the Crew would have killed a Cylon without losing one of their own under normal circumstances, it seemed like every move was run through Roy and Stacy Keibler. As Roy mentioned, I was included in every Cylon PM and it seemed like there would be no chance of the Crew doing anything. Dem0n just stopped turning in night actions, ray could try to jail Stacy Keibler but BiO would instead Influence him to Dem0n, and no matter what the Cylons would end up with a majority the next day. Plus, BiO was told to either not vote or vote for Nude, so I'm guessing he decided to take the first option. :)

Quote from NudeRaider
I don't like the idea of not being informed of action results. I can excuse the doctor from that because in Devlins setting he doesn't save people, he prevents the hit from happening by being there. But how can someone possibly not know when he was thrown into jail for 1 night? O.o (I know it's just supposed to be a mechanic of non-information, but I still like it when things make sense.) Also this should've been announced somewhere. Noticing it midgame is lame. Or did I miss it somewhere?
I don't like short day and night cycles. Original SEN mafia had 3 days per phase, which was more strategic.
I didn't like that DevliN announced that he won't explain things during the game. I disliked even more that he kept breaking his own rule.
But that's about it. Everything else was really good. Thanks Devlin for hosting such a well organized and interesting game.

The standard victory condition of Mafias is that Mafia wins as soon as they are not outnumbered anymore (which was met). I don't know why DevliN changed it for his game but then decided to go with the old one regardless, but I'm not miffed. We wouldn't have won at that point.
I'm not sure what was noticed midgame. The only times I sent night results were for Aristocrat (whose role requires a night result, regardless), Dem0n (whose role requires a night result), lil-Inferno (whose role requires a night result), and Roy/the Cylons when Roy was discovered as a Traitor. Had any role that needs a night result been imprisoned other than Aristocrat, they would have also gotten a PM saying they've been jailed. I intended to only inform the people who were supposed to get a PM back. I understand why you'd say that everyone should get PMs, I've just never been a fan of that much. One could also argue that realistically you should also get a PM if you were attacked, if you were attacking someone and failed, if you seduced someone, if you were seduced, and if you successfully framed or cleared someone since you'd know that any of these happened. :P

I had to play it short for my own schedule, as explained earlier. :/

I tried not to explain things because in the last game I hosted, my explanations ended up changing course of the game. I didn't like that I broke that either, though to be fair I haven't answered a question about the game in a while other than explaining things that could be ambiguous to others (like the Security Officer/Seductress thing). I know Roy said in a PM to you guys that he verified things with me, but that never happened. :awesome:

I don't know what was changed and then went with an old one. The rule was always that once the Cylons would outnumber the Crew, they'd win. I don't know what was changed from that.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 14 2012, 7:45 pm by DevliN.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 14 2012, 7:45 pm Roy Post #363

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

That rule modification is actually mine from my second game. The intent was to prevent the town from losing if there are idle mafia. It needs a little tweaking.

My original alliance was Nude, Ray, and poison, and I tried to keep them all alive for as long as possible. When poison voted for GeneralPie, though, it would have been political suicide to side with him.




Dec 14 2012, 7:48 pm DevliN Post #364

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Roy
That rule modification is actually mine from my second game. The intent was to prevent the town from losing if there are idle mafia. It needs a little tweaking.
Right, and I understand where Azrael is coming from in this, but because you guys included me in every PM it was pretty clear BiO wasn't AFK or idle. He even sent out a PM this morning reaffirming the next night/day plan right before I posted the victory. :lol:



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 14 2012, 7:58 pm Aristocrat Post #365



Wait, so do I win, even though I was never unlocked?



None.

Dec 14 2012, 8:09 pm rayNimagi Post #366



Quote from NudeRaider
Kudos to Roy and Vrael who were the only 2 people I told my role ( :facepalm: ) and still let me live.

I did exactly the same thing. I was led to believe that neither of them were mafia since I wasn't killed immediately after telling them my role.

Well played indeed.



Win by luck, lose by skill.

Dec 14 2012, 8:24 pm Vrael Post #367



Wait, Aristocrat was actually a 2nd Traitor? Because I was never informed that Aristocrat was a Cylon.

I got to be Six this game :D (even though I was hitwoman not Seductress :D )

Either devlin is dumb or he completely forgot that BioAtk's member ID is 112 which was contained in the log number of like every single post.



None.

Dec 14 2012, 8:34 pm DevliN Post #368

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

The log numbers were the dates of the posts. That wasn't intentional.

No Cylon was informed that Aristocrat was a Cylon because you guys never targeted him. :P



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 14 2012, 9:24 pm Fire_Kame Post #369

a left leaning coexistence nut

Quote from Aristocrat
Wait, so do I win, even though I was never unlocked?
No. You don't even lose; you just don't exist.




Dec 14 2012, 9:50 pm Vrael Post #370



Quote from DevliN
The log numbers were the dates of the posts. That wasn't intentional.
Shittiest clues ever this game :P Glad I was Cylon :D



None.

Dec 14 2012, 10:27 pm payne Post #371

:payne:

After dying, I grew very suspicious toward Roy and Zycorax.

Looks like I was right, though it wasn't really based on actual facts.

EDIT:
Also, damn you for so few clues. I relied solely on clues. I didn't want to get into behavior analysis.
Those clues sucked, and I wasted so much time trying to analyze your stuff. :><:

Also, I was mod of SEN as well for a certain time. "Authority" could've linked to me. :awesome:

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 14 2012, 10:33 pm by payne.



None.

Dec 14 2012, 10:31 pm DevliN Post #372

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

What clues? :awesome: Like I said, I didn't even plan on doing clues in the first place. The "intentional" ones are even a stretch because I didn't even really plan those either (other than, say, the edit one). Every post was written hours before the deadlines regardless of the outcomes, while adding things like deaths in as an afterthought. Ultimately most of the clues were vague enough to apply to multiple people. I've been having a good laugh about the analysis though. I tried my best to put the most convoluted parts into the Cylon night posts. And I have no idea where the goat herder thing came from.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 14 2012, 11:24 pm Azrael Post #373



Quote from DevliN
I ended the last game this exact same way, and I seem to recall you defending it.

No, you didn't :| That definitely didn't happen. If you had suggested ending it early, I'd have said not to because it wasn't fair.

In fact, during the last day of that game, I even corrected Vrael:

Quote from Azrael
Quote from Vrael
Cylons win when their voting power outranks the crew voting power

Not quite.

http://www.staredit.net/topic/14391/31/#312168

It ended with 4 Mafia outvoting 3 Town, 1 of which was a Quorum Member, resulting in a 1-to-1 case of Mafia votes against Town voting capability, which it states in the rules results in a Mafia victory if a Town member is lynched.

Of course, another prerequisite for any faction to win in a Mafia game is that it can't be possible for any other faction to win still. This was obviously the case in the last game, since it was 4 Mafia vs 2 normal Town.

Quote from DevliN
As Roy mentioned, I was included in every Cylon PM and it seemed like there would be no chance of the Crew doing anything.

Since when does the host decide who wins before the game is over, based on "because it seemed like they'd probably win"? :P By that attitude, you could simply end the game as soon as it seemed like one team gained an advantage, because they'll probably win anyways.

Quote from DevliN
BiO was told to either not vote or vote for Nude, so I'm guessing he decided to take the first option.

Which was entirely the Mafia's own fault. This shows that an inefficient course of actions was decided on, which would have given the Town an opportunity to win. If the Mafia tell Vrael "don't hit Demon because he might use paranoia", and Vrael doesn't submit a night action because of it, but Demon doesn't use paranoia and killing him will win the game for the Mafia, are you going to just kill Demon and end the game because "that's what would have happened if the Mafia had made better decisions"? :/

Quote from NudeRaider
The standard victory condition of Mafias is that Mafia wins as soon as they are not outnumbered anymore

No it isn't. That hasn't been used in years, because it's completely unfair. It's obvious the Town will win if all the Mafia are AFK; having a rule that ignores that and potentially gives a 100% AFK faction a victory is retarded.

Luckily we haven't used that victory condition in a very long time.

Quote from DevliN
The rule was always that once the Cylons would outnumber the Crew, they'd win.

And that certainly wasn't proven in this game. It's possible that BiO would have never voted for the rest of the game. Saying "well he told me in a PM he was purposely not voting" doesn't change that fact, it reinforces it.

Quote from Roy
That rule modification is actually mine from my second game.

If you remember, I brought up the fact that the current victory condition was inherently unfair and we discussed at length how to update it to make it fair, eventually formulating the current rule. It certainly wasn't a modification that was made lightly.

Quote from Roy
The intent was to prevent the town from losing if there are idle mafia.

That, and to stop unorganized Mafia from winning based on the assumption they were perfectly organized.

The point is, how can you assume the Mafia will all vote together every day for the rest of the game if they can't even do it on one single day?

You have to have the Mafia prove they are capable of voting in unison on the final day before deciding the result of the game based on the idea that the Mafia will have voted in unison every day for the rest of the game.

I can't speak for the current you, but you used to be in full agreement with that sentiment.

Quote from Roy
It needs a little tweaking.

No it doesn't, it would have done what it was supposed to do if it'd been followed here. The game shouldn't have ended while the Mafia are still being overpowered by the Town (and it's only fair to gauge the Mafia's actual voting power against the Town's maximum voting power, especially since this detail is to prevent a premature Town loss).

Quote from DevliN
because you guys included me in every PM it was pretty clear BiO wasn't AFK or idle.

I don't think anyone likes the idea of the host assuming player actions that were never submitted, whether it's night actions or votes. The host being sure that BiO isn't AFK isn't the same as BiO voting in the thread to prove that he's active and cooperating with the other Mafia properly.

Quote from DevliN
He even sent out a PM this morning reaffirming the next night/day plan right before I posted the victory.

Then there shouldn't have been any issues with him voting in the thread. As Roy said, he held BiO's vote back because he thought there would be another day cycle. That hesitation gave the Town the opportunity to win.

I don't think "cast one vote to prove that the host is fair in assuming you'll be voting for the rest of the game" is too much to ask before ending a game. If we're going to assume all players will always make all the best decisions regardless of what they actually do, there's no need in even playing a game, because it can be figured out at the beginning of a game who's most likely to win.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Dec 14 2012, 11:37 pm by Azrael. Reason: Broken link.




Dec 15 2012, 12:03 am Roy Post #374

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

I remember I got a lot of shit on one of my games because I let it go for an extra cycle because there was a idle mafia that could have let the town win if he didn't submit his action. That was my motivation to modify the victory condition.

It would get a little extreme if the host waited until there was zero chance for one side to win; they'd have to wait for one side to be completely eliminated (because players can miss night actions and votes at any time). That's why there is a victory condition to let the mafia win early: even though there's a chance for the town to win still, the chance is considered insignificant enough to warrant an early victory. Typically, this is when the mafia outnumber the town, but the issue of idle players greatly increases a plausible town victory in those scenarios. My goal by changing this rule was to keep the earlier ending, but only if the mafia had the active players to almost completely ensure their victory. If I were to tweak it, I would define an idle player as one that missed the last night action and vote.

While I agree that Devlin should have followed the rules to the letter, I disagree when you argue that the issue is because the town still had a small but existing chance.

None of the players have complained about the early end, so I'm surprised you've put so much time into discussing this minor error, Azrael. You haven't even been playing mafia lately, so it kind of seems like you've jumped in here simply for the drama; you've gotten the answer from Devlin, and it's okay to disagree with it, but I think most players would prefer a post-game discussion over a tiresome argument.

What made you suspect me, Payne? A normal townie claim was too irresistible for me to not kill? :P

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 15 2012, 12:45 am by Roy.




Dec 15 2012, 12:19 am DevliN Post #375

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Roy
None of the players have complained about the early end, so I'm surprised you've put so much time into discussing this minor error, Azrael. You haven't even been playing mafia lately, so it kind of seems like you've jumped in here simply for the drama; you've gotten the answer from Devlin, and it's okay to disagree with it, but I think most players would prefer a post-game discussion over a tiresome argument.
I completely agree with this. I don't see what the big deal is. You weren't even playing, and it seems like the only complaints I've gotten were for the short days. I didn't end this unfairly in any way. I could have gone on for another cycle, but I didn't see a point. All the Cylons were active, and playing incredibly well with all 3 of the remaining Crew roles in their pockets. It would have been impossible for the Crew to win given that Dem0n basically stopped playing, and even if he did send in an action, he could have been seduced or imprisoned via influence. At the very least, no deaths would have happened and the Cylons would outnumber the Crew. If the Crew had some fighting chance to win this, I would have let it go on, but I didn't see a point.

Quote from Azrael
Quote from DevliN
I ended the last game this exact same way, and I seem to recall you defending it.

No, you didn't :| That definitely didn't happen. If you had suggested ending it early, I'd have said not to because it wasn't fair.
The last game ended on Day 7 when Raitaki was lynched instead of you because of the Quorum Member. I didn't think about it in terms of Cylons having a majority of current votes, I saw it as Cylons having a voting majority in general. So I guess I remember it being exactly the same because I ended them the same way.

And you're right, you didn't defend it. I guess I was thinking of poison when he said "Devlin, next time there are more mafia than town, end the fucking game."

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 15 2012, 12:26 am by DevliN.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 15 2012, 12:25 am Azrael Post #376



The point is the precedent it sets. It doesn't matter if I was playing or not in the specific game.

The host shouldn't be deciding before the game is over who will win. I thought this was a really simply matter.

There was absolutely no reason Bio couldn't have voted, nor any reason he shouldn't have been expected to. I'm surprised this is even being argued.

Quote from Roy
It would get a little extreme if the host waited until there was zero chance for one side to win

Which is why there is a very reasonable condition of "vote together one day and I'll let you win by assuming you would have voted together every following day".

Quote from DevliN
The last game ended on Day 7 when Raitaki was lynched instead of you because of the Quorum Member. I didn't think about it in terms of Cylons having a majority of current votes, I saw it as Cylons having a voting majority in general. So I guess I remember it being exactly the same because I ended them the same way.

The endings are quite different. In that game, Cylons outvoted the Crew's maximum votes, and there were no Crew power roles left. In this game, Cylons did not outvote the Crew's maximum votes, and the Crew had only power roles left, including a killing role.

I don't understand why my original statement wasn't just met with "Oh, I see where you're coming from. Next time then." Not sure what the point of this argument is.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 15 2012, 12:31 am by Azrael.




Dec 15 2012, 12:27 am DevliN Post #377

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

I highly doubt this will set a precedent. I didn't decide who will win, it was pretty obvious who would win. It is really simple because there's nothing wrong with what happened. We're arguing semantics for absolutely no reason. BiO didn't vote because Roy planned for another cycle and said to vote for Nude (to make it seem like he's defending TiKels) or not vote.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 15 2012, 12:29 am Roy Post #378

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Yeah, Bio, way to drop the ball!




Dec 15 2012, 12:35 am DevliN Post #379

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Not quite, Tempz was the Quorum Member. The maximum vote of the Cylons tied that of the Crew because of his extra vote. Had he not split his votes to you and Rai, the game would not have ended there.

I did say I understood where you were coming from, and yet you kept going. I'm not gonna say "next time, then" because I've now ended the game in a similar fashion twice now and would probably do it again if I host another one. I'm assuming the point of this argument is that you have to be right and have decided to make a big deal out of it. If it is so simple, you could just stop arguing and let it go. So far no one playing has complained about the outcome of this, and I'm satisfied with that. The rest of this is irrelevant.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Dec 15 2012, 12:36 am Azrael Post #380



Quote from DevliN
BiO didn't vote because Roy planned for another cycle

And that was his prerogative. There's no way to know what would have happened on the following night or day cycles. It can be proven from this cycle that Bio wouldn't necessarily vote just because it would allow the Mafia to win. Maybe Bio would have continued not voting, thinking that was what he was supposed to do, and the Town made a comeback and win.

I also don't like that the game was decided partially because "Demon wasn't submitting night hits anyways". It was decided for him that he wouldn't be submitting a night action on the following night, before he even had the opportunity to do so.

The fact is, the current victory condition is designed to avoid these conflicts of interest. It allows the host to call the game early at the earliest possible time at which the Mafia prove they will definitely win. It gives a very fair, reasonable, and objective baseline, not just whenever the host thinks someone should probably win.

Quote from DevliN
I'm assuming the point of this argument is that you have to be right and have decided to make a big deal out of it.

No, it's to shine a light upon a perceived flaw in the hopes of preventing it from reoccurring. Even though I originally said it was a relatively insignificant matter that likely had no bearing on the outcome of the game, and that the game was otherwise hosted without any perceivable issues, I was responded to as if I said the whole game was shit and you should be hung from the gallows yourself :P

I have no idea why such a big deal was made out of this. I certainly wasn't making it out to be one when I brought it up.




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