Yenku: My overriding point here is that if marijuana doesn't reduce crime, make people selfless and more aware and able to cognitively analyze all situations in which they live, society will not be made perfect by pot as you have suggested.

Thanks for the info bro, but dude... People are too brainwashed (E.G. jordaN & Vrael) to realize the truth of things, and will always deny everything because its "out of the box"


So its useless to try to change their opinion because they're too arrogant to look at the truth, and come up with false accusations and assumptions, E.G. jordaN and his "rastafarianism" claim.

So using billions of dollars spent on keeping a drug that doesn't need to be illegal, makes society better?

Wouldn't legalizing Marijuana give the united states BILLIONS of dollars to use on other things, instead of spending it on keeping a drug that doesn't need to be illegal, illegal?

Where is the logic and reasoning behind spending billions of dollars on something that is harmless over other things this country needs?

Maybe, that wasn't really my point.

Not really, the US just spends stuff on whatever it feels like. If, however, staying out of debt were a priority, then maybe you would have a point.

a. Please give me a source showing how much is spent on drugs. Then give me a source showing how much of that is recovered via fines.

b. As I said before, the drug has not been shown to be harmless. Nor has it been shown to be harmful. You cannot, therefore, use its "harmlessness" as a premise for your argument.

Which therefore you, nor anyone else, can use its "harmful effects" as a premise for your argument.

http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm

The best part about that story is why in hells name would a good person keep drugs in his car. And once again if they know the consequences why would they make it that easy?
I'm Brainwashed? Yea I know, making drugs legal will benefit the world.

Ever heard the saying, "You can't force change."?

Nor have I. I have, however, used the potential for harmful effects as an argument. Illustration:
Dude: Check out this strange food, we should eat it.
Dood: It might be poisonous.
Dude: It hasn't been shown to be poisonous, it's fine.
Dood: Yes, but neither has it been shown to be harmless.
Dude: Look at those guys, they ate it.
Dood: Correct, but we have yet to see the long term effects of it on them, or on other people.
Dude: It should be fine.
Dood: Perhaps, but instead of getting everybody we know to eat it, perhaps we should proceed with more caution. In fact, since we have been fine without it until now, perhaps we should just avoid it all together.
Dude: But it hasn't been shown to be harmful.
Dood: Yes, we went over this.

I don't believe I claimed it would make a perfect society. Either way, I believe legalization can only help our situation, I'm not trying to make a perfect society, just a reasonable one.

One problem, that logic should have no place in this argument because legalization of weed will yield very positive consequences as I have explained.

If you really think owning drugs or having them in your car is bad, then you really are brainwashed. You can't tell me that a person who learned about marihuana and drugs for himself would think it is wrong to use them, humans naturally seek them out. You are the definition of brainwashed because you don't believe its right when it's human nature.

Yes you are. Why can you not comprehend what I have already mentioned? I already explained how legalizing drugs would benefit the world and you havent made one decent retort.

I can't force change, but I can aid it.

Ah, great job at skewing the point of my saying that comment jordaN, excelent work!

If you'd learn to think "outside the box" for once (which would require you to think on your own for once) you'd see where I'm comming from.


All you spout out is lies and bullshit with no backed proof. All we've given is POSITIVEs of legalizing Marijuana (since when did we start talking about legalizing all drugs????) and you HAVE NOT proven these postitives to be of any bad nature... Except with your continuous bashing and false claims with no proof...


You should honestly learn to think for yourself, and research before you partake in anymore Serious Discussion threads within this forum in my opinion.. You just always derail the intelligent discussion with your un-intellectual, unresearched claims and "comebacks" and you never provide a valid argument to the discussion in any discussion you partake in..

Just some advice.

I'll just go ahead and ignore then post anway. No need to reply.


Hmm, it looks like you don't get it so lets replace drugs with stolen money. Now say for example you got a thousand dollars but they are in bills right, so you stash them in your car thinking it's a safe place. Now you get pulled over by the police because you're a Canadian driving in USA. He checks to see if you are drunk and he finds out you're not. Then he opens up one of the compartments only to find money. He then automatically checks his leaflet about this thousand dollars that was stolen. He then arrests you. So what you're trying to say is having stolen/illegal goods in a car is good then I'm not sure how many times you've been smoking.

Well, what if the human doesn't like the effects of the drug. Would that mean he would continue using it out of his own consent?

This is a totally different situation. You're not fooling anybody. People should stop bothering with your posts with any more than a few sentences in reply until you prove you even try to be logical when posting.
Strawman Fallacy

I have a lot more replying to do in this topic -- but it'll be when I have some more time later.

You're right, the smell is opinion. The fault of the frisbee accident lies solely with the stoned driver, I don't think the little dead girl will get sued for damages to the vehicle... As for what you've seen, your limited perspective on the world does not account for every possibility. I don't mean to attack or slander your perspective, but I believe you're missing out at what would happen if millions of people had access to this stuff. Yes, the people who want it will get it illegally anyway, but why should that support your case? It really doesn't, it's illegal. Besides, this is America, if we want it legalized we have the power. Someone can petition Congress in favor of legalizing. As for the increasing number of people doing it, I'm not a pundit on the matter, but the population of the country is increasing too, so the percentage might not be changing. In adressing the "open thought" and "free society" mumbo-jumbo, why do we need M-J to think better? Eat fish if you're having difficulty processing. Play Brain Age. Save your weed money for something better. I'm obviously anti-legalization, but I can see the benefits for medical patients. I think M-J should be like plutonium: locked away until we need it. There are some non-smoking benefits I would like to have it legalized for, like paper production. As for legalizing the smoking of it, I believe it would be detrimental to the health of society overall, because in a country of over 300 million, free access would increase the danger greatly; people would not be as careful with it as they are now.

And @ Kellimus: please do not call me brainwashed; I have cognitively analyzed this matter with my own brain and came to these conclusions. I am not under the impression that wantonly accepting the views of other individuals around me counts as my own perspective.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 27 2007, 3:50 am by Vrael.

Not exactly. The only change I did to the scenario was replace drugs with money(and the leaflet). It would be totally different if the person deposited the money in the bank which you can't do with drugs.

Sorry, but I believe you are brainwashed. If you honestly believe that a stoned driver drives faster than the speed limit, you've been brainwashed by those "Truth" commercials.

You do realize that millions of people already have access too this stuff, don't you? Our whole nation is full of druggies, be them pot-heads or meth-heads.


Please do more research before you spout out lies, thank you

Of course not, and they also wouldn't make other people who use them go into isolation from society and then make them parasites on the established economy.

I never said one needs weed to make them think better. I do think it helps engender a universal viewpoint, not just a problem solving mind. Just because it isn't necessary doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option for people to take advantage of or to leave alone
This is also a matter of freedom. It is our god-given right to use substances such as marihuana. I'm sick of all the double-standards in this society. People are addicted to caffeine, alcohol, muscle relaxers, pain killers and mother f--king cheese burgers from mccy d's, damnit. I don't see why marihuana is so fucking bad in society's eyes.
You still don't acknowledge the fact that proper regulation and education will keep such events as the car accident from even happening. It could happen with weed legal or not. Alcohol is the drug to be worried about with use during driving. There were more fatal injuries from alcohol when it was illegal than when it became legal again in the 30's. People didn't worry about driving drunk, people made their own and died from it or became blind or went through every kind of organ failure there was until they got safe alcohol again. Now you see that drug legalization means more safety for the users and who they users come in contact with.

It supports my case because our government is waging a war on drugs, they are spending unreasonable amounts of resources on punishing people who do drugs. They will never win the war on drugs, don't you understand? There will always be a market, people will always get their fixes legal or not. If we legalize, in this aspect alone, we can then treat an addict or drug user as they are, not as criminals for christ's sake.

Theres no good connection between these situations.. Drugs are not stolen money. Also keep in mind, just because something is illegal or is legal doesn't mean something is wrong, unless you believe in submitting to the power, which I assume you're smart enough not to do.

I need to learn how to use the quote function lol

@ Kellimus: Truth commercials? I don't watch TV much lol (but yes I've seen them, and they're about tobacco, not weed). Usually I watch the specials on galaxies and stuff so.. w00t for that! I'm not brainwashed, thank you very much.

Before you accuse me of lying, I would like you to do some research on the subject. Go out into the world and survey a few million Americans; after you have your own hard data then you can accuse me of such. Besides, most of what I "spouted out" was opinion.
Regarding the "millions who have access" yes, I believe roughly everybody has "access" to it. That's quite a different concept from legalized access where you could go down to the corner store everyday and buy some.
Besides, being high impairs judgement, a high person is much more likely to drive at 70 mph than a fully cogent driver. It's the same with alcohol and more recently cell phones. That's why they're illegal. (Cell phones in N. Jersey).
I would appreciate it if you could keep your posts regarding me to relevant issues either supporting or refuting the legalization of M-J, and not to attacking my character.

@Yenku: Thanks for being more than a pot-head. I realize much of your views are based in the rights and freedoms that should be naturally given to us. I almost agree with you. If the majority of people could smoke it without affecting anyone else, in fact I would support your case. However, I don't think you can deny the effects it would have on the rest of society, and when personal freedoms enroach upon others' freedoms, they overstep their bounds. Just one example, would be the smell I mentioned before. If my entire community was full of people smoking pot, the smell would be terrible. They don't have the right to force me to smell that. (Recently cigarrette smoking has been banned in certain bars). And don't tell me it doesn't carry easily in the wind, I've smelled it from the park down our street before.

Another issue I'm not sure you understand my point on is the actual illegalization of the substance. Marijiana has been made illegal by law. Law, being naturally understood in America as the will of the people. In certain aspects there have undoubtedly been deviations from the true will of the people, but they usually fix themselves through the course of time. As of right now it is forbidden by law to smoke a joint, and since it is law it is the duty of the executive branch of our government to punish those who break it. Would you just as easily tell our government to stop punishing murderers or rapists? (Naturally, I realize there is a difference in effect, but not in principle). Will we ever win the war on murder or rape? No. So why is the war on drugs any different? If we want to do any of these acts, as citizens we petition the government, or leave the country. If you want to really be a pot-head, go to Canada. *shrug* You are currently a minority. The American legal system isn't designed to emulate the views of a minority, only to protect their rights. And since MJ would have an effect such that would encroach upon others' rights, it is not a natural right. It isn't a god-given right to annoy people. That's what restraining orders are for. I look forward to your response.

As I mentioned, being high means that someone is more likely to go SLOWER than normal. So your statement on people having a higher chance of going 70 m/h when their high should be disregarded. Being high does not impair judgment. You claim you studied up on this, but you're still expressing the same rhetoric that Above the Influence spreads. Weed does NOT impair judgment. Weed is unrelated to speeding drivers, weed is not cocaine. END OF STORY

Let's get something straight. If you put down pot heads one more time, I won't care to enlighten you on this issue you are very mixed up in.
This argument is one I'd expect from a seven year old. Being subject to someone else's odor is not a freedom infringement. No one makes you smell them. You should be aware of the fact that hygiene is a personal issue, not one that disrupts our social structure and economy. And as I've already mentioned numerous times: I support proper REGULATION of drug use in America. This means I could understand if they banned smoking pot in cars or certain public building, but other forms of regulation include safer drugs, limited amounts of distribution, a tax, and even rehabilitation.

Marihuana was made illegal after one man as CEO of one company started vicious attacks against the substance. His logging company's revenue (and that of others) was not doing as well thanks to the grand discoveries of what Hemp can do. He published many false claims against marihuana and soon most corporations followed suit. It's called propaganda, people think they support something thats right when in actuality it could be very wrong. Our government, which is now inevitably intertwined with corporate influence acted on these lies. Don't you know of a movie called "Reefer Madness"? It is one of the many examples of how the drug was demonized, our current laws are still based on those fucked up decisions in the 30's. That is not the will of the people anymore. That was false virtual representation, not a democratic nor even a direct representation of the public.

Rape and murder are considered sins by every person I know and by every religion I know. You cannot compare these two things. Besides, our government did not call it a war on murder/rape, they have law enforcement for that. They coined the "War on Drugs" title to make a cry to the public showing how righteous the government always is in its efforts, when really they are just trying to save face.

Do you not remember me mentioning how people smoke pot anyway? Legalizing it may increase how much you smell it, but still, that argument is as childish as saying I'm gonna lock up Indian people because they smell like curry.


If you have any trouble understanding what I mentioned about insulting potheads, the "War on Drugs" title, problems regulation would take on, the misrepresentation of the people, or anything else, just ask and I will be glad to help.

Regarding this, driving while high. I've had to do it once, and while I did not enjoy it (because I was high, first time high etc), It's very possible. My judgment, to my knowledge, wasn't impaired. I felt as if I SHOULD go slower so that I don't get pulled over etc. The only thing I didn't think was safe was that I didn't like moving my feet because not moving them felt soo good, so hitting the brakes didn't seem as imperative, but I was still able to manage when I said to myself that I HAVE to hit the brakes.

My conclusion? While it's not as safe as driving sober, it's perfectly doable, and certainly not NEAR as dangerous as driving drunk.

You're obviously not getting any of my points, so I'm just going to withdraw from the forum. If you think it should be legalized, create a political party or something. Also, please don't claim others' interpretations of situations are wrong because they have no hard data when you cite none yourself. I find you disagreeable to debate with. I had a conversation with a friend of mine who smokes MJ and he was much more cogent and relevant about this stuff than you while supporting the same position, so I'm out of this.

I withdraw any compliments I have previously attributed to you, and I have a very strong inclination to put down "pot-head" six thousand times, but I'll just let you know I had the inclination instead. Good luck with your arguments.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 29 2007, 12:57 am by Vrael.