Amen.

Amen.

[quote]Kow: Whenever you see a commercial saying that a tobacco tax will hurt America, guess who's paying for it.[/quote] The smokers? I don't see what your point is here, please clarify. Regarding cancer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29#Health_issues (I read elsewhere on wiki that marijuana contains carcinogens, aka cancer causing things, but I can't find it)

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Kow: Whenever you see a commercial saying that a tobacco tax will hurt America, guess who's paying for it.

The smokers? I don't see what your point is here, please clarify.

Regarding cancer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_%28drug%29#Health_issues (I read elsewhere on wiki that marijuana contains carcinogens, aka cancer causing things, but I can't find it)

Yenku edited the page. :lol:

Yenku edited the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_and_the_effects_of_cannabis#Cancer_risk [quote] Cannabis smoke contains numerous carcinogens;[75][76][77] however, scientific studies have failed to show higher cancer rates in cannabis smokers. A study published in 2006 by Donald Tashkin of the University of California, Los Angeles, the largest study of its kind, concluded there is no link between smoking cannabis and lung cancer.[78][/quote] So the carcinogens are there, but they're not as likely to produce cancer as say, a cigarette or other tobacco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_and_the_effects_of_cannabis#Cancer_risk

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Cannabis smoke contains numerous carcinogens;[75][76][77] however, scientific studies have failed to show higher cancer rates in cannabis smokers. A study published in 2006 by Donald Tashkin of the University of California, Los Angeles, the largest study of its kind, concluded there is no link between smoking cannabis and lung cancer.[78]

So the carcinogens are there, but they're not as likely to produce cancer as say, a cigarette or other tobacco.

[quote=yenku] [quote=Dapperdan][QUOTE=yenku]The other reason I believe marihuana is kept illegal is because of the culture around it. Many use marihuana and experience a new state of mind, one in which they think openly. The people in power don't want that, of course.[/QUOTE] That is complete bullshit. I hope I don't have to explain... I'll have further comments later.[/quote]Do you believe its BS that one feels more open minded when high? Or just that its a BS notion that the men behind the curtain don't want that? I am very skeptical of certain people in power. I am quite sure the latter is part of it.[/quote] I can't speak for the corporate big wigs, but if I am in a position of power (such as local movie director/producer, or club president), I'm more worried about people who use things like marijuana living up to the "dumb stoner" stereotype, and making careless mistakes and bad judgment calls. I'm not perfect, and I've done things that aren't exactly "ethical" to keep or expand my little sphere of influence, but the possibility that pot smoking inspires the kind of "free thinking" that might expose my shortcomings is never even considered. I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But the motivation needed to get something accomplished in life seems to exist in the individual, regardless of their choice to use recreational substances. The whole "Big Brother doesn't want you to use the mind expanding pot!" argument seems like an infantile defense, in my opinion.

Quote from yenku

Quote from Dapperdan

Quote from yenku

The other reason I believe marihuana is kept illegal is because of the culture around it. Many use marihuana and experience a new state of mind, one in which they think openly. The people in power don't want that, of course.

That is complete bullshit. I hope I don't have to explain...

I'll have further comments later.

Do you believe its BS that one feels more open minded when high? Or just that its a BS notion that the men behind the curtain don't want that? I am very skeptical of certain people in power. I am quite sure the latter is part of it.

I can't speak for the corporate big wigs, but if I am in a position of power (such as local movie director/producer, or club president), I'm more worried about people who use things like marijuana living up to the "dumb stoner" stereotype, and making careless mistakes and bad judgment calls. I'm not perfect, and I've done things that aren't exactly "ethical" to keep or expand my little sphere of influence, but the possibility that pot smoking inspires the kind of "free thinking" that might expose my shortcomings is never even considered.

I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But the motivation needed to get something accomplished in life seems to exist in the individual, regardless of their choice to use recreational substances. The whole "Big Brother doesn't want you to use the mind expanding pot!" argument seems like an infantile defense, in my opinion.

ok, cigarettes are worse for you than pot is. pot should be made legal, and cigarettes should be illegal. wtf do ppl smoke cigarettes for anyways? there one of the worst things for you and they dont do shit but make u feel a bit light headed. its fuckin stupid

ok, cigarettes are worse for you than pot is. pot should be made legal, and cigarettes should be illegal. wtf do ppl smoke cigarettes for anyways? there one of the worst things for you and they dont do shit but make u feel a bit light headed. its fuckin stupid

[QUOTE=Kow]The smokers? I don't see what your point is here, please clarify.[/QUOTE] Can't pick up on hints? Lets think about this... MADD? The truth campaign? Orphans? No, the freaking tobacco companies. However, look at the bottom of your television screen and it'll say something more like "American Workers for Lower Taxes."

Quote from Kow

The smokers? I don't see what your point is here, please clarify.

Can't pick up on hints? Lets think about this... MADD? The truth campaign? Orphans? No, the freaking tobacco companies. However, look at the bottom of your television screen and it'll say something more like "American Workers for Lower Taxes."

I suppose the customer would be paying the price. Or the tobacco companies if they lower prices

I suppose the customer would be paying the price. Or the tobacco companies if they lower prices

[quote=Doodan][quote=yenku] [quote=Dapperdan][QUOTE=yenku]The other reason I believe marihuana is kept illegal is because of the culture around it. Many use marihuana and experience a new state of mind, one in which they think openly. The people in power don't want that, of course.[/QUOTE] That is complete bullshit. I hope I don't have to explain... I'll have further comments later.[/quote]Do you believe its BS that one feels more open minded when high? Or just that its a BS notion that the men behind the curtain don't want that? I am very skeptical of certain people in power. I am quite sure the latter is part of it.[/quote] I can't speak for the corporate big wigs, but if I am in a position of power (such as local movie director/producer, or club president), I'm more worried about people who use things like marijuana living up to the "dumb stoner" stereotype, and making careless mistakes and bad judgment calls. I'm not perfect, and I've done things that aren't exactly "ethical" to keep or expand my little sphere of influence, but the possibility that pot smoking inspires the kind of "free thinking" that might expose my shortcomings is never even considered. I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But the motivation needed to get something accomplished in life seems to exist in the individual, regardless of their choice to use recreational substances. The whole "Big Brother doesn't want you to use the mind expanding pot!" argument has seems like an infantile defense, in my opinion.[/quote] Well said.

Quote from Doodan

Quote from yenku

Quote from Dapperdan

Quote from yenku

The other reason I believe marihuana is kept illegal is because of the culture around it. Many use marihuana and experience a new state of mind, one in which they think openly. The people in power don't want that, of course.

That is complete bullshit. I hope I don't have to explain...

I'll have further comments later.

Do you believe its BS that one feels more open minded when high? Or just that its a BS notion that the men behind the curtain don't want that? I am very skeptical of certain people in power. I am quite sure the latter is part of it.

I can't speak for the corporate big wigs, but if I am in a position of power (such as local movie director/producer, or club president), I'm more worried about people who use things like marijuana living up to the "dumb stoner" stereotype, and making careless mistakes and bad judgment calls. I'm not perfect, and I've done things that aren't exactly "ethical" to keep or expand my little sphere of influence, but the possibility that pot smoking inspires the kind of "free thinking" that might expose my shortcomings is never even considered.

I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But the motivation needed to get something accomplished in life seems to exist in the individual, regardless of their choice to use recreational substances. The whole "Big Brother doesn't want you to use the mind expanding pot!" argument has seems like an infantile defense, in my opinion.

Well said.

Kow: I can't seem to get my point across. Yes, the cost would lie in the smokers, as well as cutting [edit]very heavily[/edit] into tobacco company profits. That's why they invest millions in stopping taxes and things that could eventually lead to the banning of tobacco. If marijuana were legalized, a similar industry would rise up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just eaten up by tobacco companies, making them even bigger. Ok, now here's what you don't seem to get. When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing. That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing.

Kow: I can't seem to get my point across. Yes, the cost would lie in the smokers, as well as cutting [edit]very heavily[/edit] into tobacco company profits. That's why they invest millions in stopping taxes and things that could eventually lead to the banning of tobacco.

If marijuana were legalized, a similar industry would rise up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just eaten up by tobacco companies, making them even bigger.

Ok, now here's what you don't seem to get. When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing.


That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing.

[quote=frazz]Kow: I can't seem to get my point across. Yes, the cost would lie in the smokers, as well as cutting [edit]very heavily[/edit] into tobacco company profits. That's why they invest millions in stopping taxes and things that could eventually lead to the banning of tobacco. If marijuana were legalized, a similar industry would rise up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just eaten up by tobacco companies, making them even bigger. Ok, now here's what you don't seem to get. When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing. That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing.[/quote] Good reasoning there Frazz! :D Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes. Good game.

Quote from frazz

Kow: I can't seem to get my point across. Yes, the cost would lie in the smokers, as well as cutting [edit]very heavily[/edit] into tobacco company profits. That's why they invest millions in stopping taxes and things that could eventually lead to the banning of tobacco.

If marijuana were legalized, a similar industry would rise up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just eaten up by tobacco companies, making them even bigger.

Ok, now here's what you don't seem to get. When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing.


That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing.

Good reasoning there Frazz!

Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes.


Good game.

[QUOTE=Kellimus]Good reasoning there Frazz! Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes. Good game.[/QUOTE] That wasn't his point. Unless you are purposely attacking something that has not been argued to make your own seperate point. :|

Quote from Kellimus

Good reasoning there Frazz!

Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes.

Good game.

That wasn't his point. Unless you are purposely attacking something that has not been argued to make your own seperate point.

[quote=Dapperdan][QUOTE=Kellimus]Good reasoning there Frazz! Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes. Good game.[/QUOTE] That wasn't his point. Unless you are purposely attacking something that has not been argued to make your own seperate point. :|[/quote] Wow, my post was reported because I asked for sources? That's pretty pathetic (not aimed at you, just saying it in general) I wasn't [i]attacking[/i] anything [quote=Frazz]Ok, now here's what you don't seem to get. When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing. That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing.[/quote] I was bringing up the point that to not legalize Marijuanna because of how Cigarettes are deadly is ridiculous. And how he replied in that quote is exactly the idea he gives off to the reader.

Quote from Dapperdan

Quote from Kellimus

Good reasoning there Frazz!

Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes.

Good game.

That wasn't his point. Unless you are purposely attacking something that has not been argued to make your own seperate point.

Wow, my post was reported because I asked for sources? That's pretty pathetic (not aimed at you, just saying it in general)

I wasn't attacking anything

Quote from Frazz

Ok, now here's what you don't seem to get. When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing.


That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing.

I was bringing up the point that to not legalize Marijuanna because of how Cigarettes are deadly is ridiculous.

And how he replied in that quote is exactly the idea he gives off to the reader.

! ! This post has been reported 1 times ! ! Kellimus: If you don't understand why my argument does not need a source, then you need to try reading it again. [QUOTE=Kellimus]I was bringing up the point that to not legalize Marijuanna because of how Cigarettes are deadly is ridiculous. And how he replied in that quote is exactly the idea he gives off to the reader.[/QUOTE] Who are you and what have you done with the real Kellimus?! Anyway, I see how my point looks kinda lame in retrospect. I'll try again. Edited(mildly): Yes, the cost [of taxes on tobacco] would lie in the smokers, as well as cutting very heavily into tobacco company profits. That's why they invest millions in stopping taxes and things that could eventually lead to the banning of tobacco. If marijuana were legalized, a similar industry would rise up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just eaten up by tobacco companies, making them even bigger. When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing. That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing. Now, that being said, here are some potential problems: 1. Big company that influences public law. Bad. 2. Potentially addictive products. The lack of evidence FOR addiction does not serve as proof AGAINST addiction. Nobody thought cigarettes were addictive early on. They just smoked them, and liked it. Then they kept on smoking, and never really tried to quit. 3. Potential negative health effects. Again, the lack of evidence FOR negative effects (aside from the 2% increase in psychosis already known) does not serve as evidence against it.

! ! This post has been reported 1 times ! !

Kellimus: If you don't understand why my argument does not need a source, then you need to try reading it again.

Quote from Kellimus

I was bringing up the point that to not legalize Marijuanna because of how Cigarettes are deadly is ridiculous.

And how he replied in that quote is exactly the idea he gives off to the reader.

Who are you and what have you done with the real Kellimus?!

Anyway, I see how my point looks kinda lame in retrospect. I'll try again. Edited(mildly):

Yes, the cost [of taxes on tobacco] would lie in the smokers, as well as cutting very heavily into tobacco company profits. That's why they invest millions in stopping taxes and things that could eventually lead to the banning of tobacco.
If marijuana were legalized, a similar industry would rise up. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just eaten up by tobacco companies, making them even bigger.
When a company that sells addictive products that KILL PEOPLE has a large influence on the making of public laws, it is a BAD thing.
That's one reason why groups such as the truth campaign want them taken down. It's also one reason why legalized marijuana would be a bad thing.

Now, that being said, here are some potential problems:

1. Big company that influences public law. Bad.
2. Potentially addictive products. The lack of evidence FOR addiction does not serve as proof AGAINST addiction. Nobody thought cigarettes were addictive early on. They just smoked them, and liked it. Then they kept on smoking, and never really tried to quit.
3. Potential negative health effects. Again, the lack of evidence FOR negative effects (aside from the 2% increase in psychosis already known) does not serve as evidence against it.

[quote=Kellimus]Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes.[/quote] Whenever I say you argue for the sake of arguing and to be a jerk, this is what I mean. Frazz never made such claim a, nor is the relative deadliness marijuana even relevant to his argument. You've clearly developed a quite peculiar habit of pulling out random bits of arguments and demanding sources while adding no actual discussion. Frankly, it is becoming rather disruptive - consider yourself warned. My intention of posting this here is not to ridicule you, but rather to prevent everyone from thinking you're getting away with such posting habits. If you wish to speak to me about this, please use a private message. Otherwise, I expect a return to topical discussion.

Quote from Kellimus

Now how about giving us some reliable sources that show evidence of how deadly Marijuanna is to Cigarettes.

Whenever I say you argue for the sake of arguing and to be a jerk, this is what I mean. Frazz never made such claim a, nor is the relative deadliness marijuana even relevant to his argument. You've clearly developed a quite peculiar habit of pulling out random bits of arguments and demanding sources while adding no actual discussion. Frankly, it is becoming rather disruptive - consider yourself warned.

My intention of posting this here is not to ridicule you, but rather to prevent everyone from thinking you're getting away with such posting habits. If you wish to speak to me about this, please use a private message. Otherwise, I expect a return to topical discussion.

[QUOTE]2. Potentially addictive products. The lack of evidence FOR addiction does not serve as proof AGAINST addiction. Nobody thought cigarettes were addictive early on. They just smoked them, and liked it. Then they kept on smoking, and never really tried to quit.[/QUOTE] I'm almost 110% positive that marijuana has been around [B]A LOT[/B] longer than cigarettes. That would pretty much ruin your point, unless you wish to rephrase. [QUOTE=frazz]Anyway, I see how my point looks kinda lame in retrospect.[/QUOTE] It made sense to me. It appears Kellimus just failed to connect your points properly.

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2. Potentially addictive products. The lack of evidence FOR addiction does not serve as proof AGAINST addiction. Nobody thought cigarettes were addictive early on. They just smoked them, and liked it. Then they kept on smoking, and never really tried to quit.

I'm almost 110% positive that marijuana has been around A LOT longer than cigarettes. That would pretty much ruin your point, unless you wish to rephrase.

Quote from frazz

Anyway, I see how my point looks kinda lame in retrospect.

It made sense to me. It appears Kellimus just failed to connect your points properly.

Tobacco probably existed, or rather began cultivation before marijuana because it's more northern is it not?

Tobacco probably existed, or rather began cultivation before marijuana because it's more northern is it not?

I said cigarettes, not Tobacco. It's the nicotene that's addictive, isn't it?

I said cigarettes, not Tobacco. It's the nicotene that's addictive, isn't it?

You do realise what cigarettes contain right?

You do realise what cigarettes contain right?

[quote=Kow]Tobacco probably existed, or rather began cultivation before marijuana because it's more northern is it not?[/quote]Marihuana has been cultivated for thousands of years. Probably very close to one another. [quote=Doodan]I can't speak for the corporate big wigs, but if I am in a position of power (such as local movie director/producer, or club president), I'm more worried about people who use things like marijuana living up to the "dumb stoner" stereotype, and making careless mistakes and bad judgment calls. I'm not perfect, and I've done things that aren't exactly "ethical" to keep or expand my little sphere of influence, but the possibility that pot smoking inspires the kind of "free thinking" that might expose my shortcomings is never even considered. I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But the motivation needed to get something accomplished in life seems to exist in the individual, regardless of their choice to use recreational substances. The whole "Big Brother doesn't want you to use the mind expanding pot!" argument seems like an infantile defense, in my opinion.[/quote]It seems infantile to you of course. I don't know how I can ever come to an agreement with you on this until you understand the effects. I will try to explain. Society would be massively different from what it is now if pot was legalized. It does in fact change the how people think, in a way that can -but may not- make them more open minded. The society we would have if pot were legal and used more freely -I call the Green Planet- would operate in a way that the people in charge (I'm talking corporate heads, federal bank heads, etc.) could never earn as much money as they do. They will not let this happen. They will lobby (as they have, and as they do) to keep marihuana illegal. If you think there is any other reason for why it is illegal, you are missing the picture. It's just too obvious otherwise why it should be legal. Until you understand what marihuana does to someone, please do not refute what I say and call it infantile. That is very ignorant. [quote=Dapperdan]Yenku edited the page. :lol:[/quote]More like, "Yenku is right in saying marihuana is not linked to cancer any more than canned corn."

Quote from Kow

Tobacco probably existed, or rather began cultivation before marijuana because it's more northern is it not?

Marihuana has been cultivated for thousands of years. Probably very close to one another.

Quote from Doodan

I can't speak for the corporate big wigs, but if I am in a position of power (such as local movie director/producer, or club president), I'm more worried about people who use things like marijuana living up to the "dumb stoner" stereotype, and making careless mistakes and bad judgment calls. I'm not perfect, and I've done things that aren't exactly "ethical" to keep or expand my little sphere of influence, but the possibility that pot smoking inspires the kind of "free thinking" that might expose my shortcomings is never even considered.

I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily. But the motivation needed to get something accomplished in life seems to exist in the individual, regardless of their choice to use recreational substances. The whole "Big Brother doesn't want you to use the mind expanding pot!" argument seems like an infantile defense, in my opinion.

It seems infantile to you of course. I don't know how I can ever come to an agreement with you on this until you understand the effects.

I will try to explain. Society would be massively different from what it is now if pot was legalized. It does in fact change the how people think, in a way that can -but may not- make them more open minded. The society we would have if pot were legal and used more freely -I call the Green Planet- would operate in a way that the people in charge (I'm talking corporate heads, federal bank heads, etc.) could never earn as much money as they do. They will not let this happen. They will lobby (as they have, and as they do) to keep marihuana illegal. If you think there is any other reason for why it is illegal, you are missing the picture. It's just too obvious otherwise why it should be legal.
Until you understand what marihuana does to someone, please do not refute what I say and call it infantile. That is very ignorant.

Quote from Dapperdan

Yenku edited the page.

More like, "Yenku is right in saying marihuana is not linked to cancer any more than canned corn."