Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: Divine Command Theory
Divine Command Theory
Jan 1 2012, 6:41 am
By: rayNimagi
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Aug 3 2012, 1:51 pm Jack Post #81

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Roy
Quote from Jack
The Ten Commandments, or if you prefer, the summary of the Ten Commandments which Jesus gives:
�Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all
your mind.� and �Love your neighbor as yourself.�
The Bible is full of more specific examples of how to carry out that love.
Slightly off-topic, but why do we call it the Ten Commandments when there are not ten of them?
Quote
There are 613 commandments in the Bible. In the list of commandments that were given to Moses, there were 14 different commandments, as listed in the books of Exodus (in particular Chapter 20) and Deuteronomy. Other commandments are listed throughout Exodus. Less well known commandments include, "You shall not suffer a witch to live", "You shall never vex a stranger" and "Whosoever lies with a beast shall be surely put to death". (Forfeit: 10; 9; 8)
I presume it would be immoral to violate any of the 613 commandments in the Bible, or are some less important than others? Can one commandment be less immoral than another?
The Ten Commandments are the ten commandments found in Exodus 20; they are often referred to as the Moral Law, as opposed to the Civil Law and the Ceremonial Law. All three categories of law had commandments in them, hence the large number of commandments. Most Christians consider the ceremonial law to be done away with after the resurrection of Jesus; the civil law I'm not completely sure about but it's probably the same.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Aug 3 2012, 10:16 pm Oh_Man Post #82

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Well, WHICH ten commandments? Moses smashed the first set in a fit of anger, and the second set were completely different.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf




Aug 3 2012, 11:36 pm Jack Post #83

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Oh_Man
Well, WHICH ten commandments? Moses smashed the first set in a fit of anger, and the second set were completely different.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf
The two sets were exactly the same. After giving the second set, God then made a proclamation but there is no indication that what He said was what He wrote on the second set.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Aug 4 2012, 12:14 am Oh_Man Post #84

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Why do you disregard your God's proclamations? Surely they are to be obeyed as well?




Aug 4 2012, 12:31 am Sacrieur Post #85

Still Napping

Quote from Oh_Man
Well, WHICH ten commandments? Moses smashed the first set in a fit of anger, and the second set were completely different.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf

One-liners are frowned upon in SD. Perhaps fleshing out your viewpoint by referencing a specific difference rather than just throwing a link down would help foster further discussion and understanding.


Quote from Jack
The two sets were exactly the same. After giving the second set, God then made a proclamation but there is no indication that what He said was what He wrote on the second set.

This is also a one-liner, and without supporting evidence. Where exactly did God proclaim this? Do you have an expert's opinion on the subject?


Quote from Oh_Man
Why do you disregard your God's proclamations? Surely they are to be obeyed as well?

Which proclamations are you referring? I find your questions a bit unsubstantiated and confusing, especially noting that the language suggests you didn't quite grasp what Jack was saying.



None.

Aug 4 2012, 12:35 am jjf28 Post #86

Cartography Artisan

Quote
Why do you disregard your God's proclamations? Surely they are to be obeyed as well?

If we were still under the first covenant made between God and the Israelites (See exodus 34, 10). However, we learn in many places in the NT that we are not bound to all of the old testament law, significantly:

Quote from name:Hebrews 10, 8-18 NIV
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” —though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”
[a]
17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[b]
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Verses 9 and 16 heavily imply a new covenant, where as verses 14 and 18 remove large portions of the old law (sacrifices for sin/holiness).

Jesus also speaks of this 'new deal' formed in him, here:

Quote from name:Matthew 26:28
28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 4 2012, 12:54 am by jjf28.



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Aug 4 2012, 12:59 am Fire_Kame Post #87

wth is starcraft

Quote from Sacrieur
Quote from Oh_Man
Well, WHICH ten commandments? Moses smashed the first set in a fit of anger, and the second set were completely different.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf

One-liners are frowned upon in SD. Perhaps fleshing out your viewpoint by referencing a specific difference rather than just throwing a link down would help foster further discussion and understanding.


Quote from Jack
The two sets were exactly the same. After giving the second set, God then made a proclamation but there is no indication that what He said was what He wrote on the second set.

This is also a one-liner, and without supporting evidence. Where exactly did God proclaim this? Do you have an expert's opinion on the subject?


Quote from Oh_Man
Why do you disregard your God's proclamations? Surely they are to be obeyed as well?

Which proclamations are you referring? I find your questions a bit unsubstantiated and confusing, especially noting that the language suggests you didn't quite grasp what Jack was saying.

I think the issue with this conversation is that the horse has been beating dead...there isn't a whole lot of 'new' information to present, and so all that is left are sentence-long bickering to and from opponents.




Aug 4 2012, 1:00 am Jack Post #88

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Sacrieur
Quote from Oh_Man
Well, WHICH ten commandments? Moses smashed the first set in a fit of anger, and the second set were completely different.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.pdf

One-liners are frowned upon in SD. Perhaps fleshing out your viewpoint by referencing a specific difference rather than just throwing a link down would help foster further discussion and understanding.


Quote from Jack
The two sets were exactly the same. After giving the second set, God then made a proclamation but there is no indication that what He said was what He wrote on the second set.

This is also a one-liner, and without supporting evidence. Where exactly did God proclaim this? Do you have an expert's opinion on the subject?


Quote from Oh_Man
Why do you disregard your God's proclamations? Surely they are to be obeyed as well?

Which proclamations are you referring? I find your questions a bit unsubstantiated and confusing, especially noting that the language suggests you didn't quite grasp what Jack was saying.
Sacriur, I and Oh_man were both referring to what is said in the Bible, namely Exodus 20 and Exodus 34, which are the passages listed in the link Oh_man provided. The supporting evidence for what I said is pretty plain in the passages, but I'll copy paste them here:

Quote from Exodus 20
And God spoke all these words: 2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the
land of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above
or on the earth beneath or in the
waters below.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I,
the LORD your God, am a jealous God,
punishing the children for the sin of
the parents to the third and fourth
generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and
keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold
anyone guiltless who misuses his
name.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On
it you shall not do any work, neither
you, nor your son or daughter, nor
your male or female servant, nor your
animals, nor any foreigner residing in
your towns.
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the
earth, the sea, and all that is in them,
but he rested on the seventh day.
Therefore the LORD blessed the
Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the
LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s
wife, or his male or female servant, his
ox or donkey, or anything that belongs
to your neighbor.”

Quote from Exodus 34
The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on
them the words that were on the first tablets,
which you broke.
2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to
me there on top of the mountain.
3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the
mountain; not even the flocks and herds may
graze in front of the mountain.”
4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the
morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and
he carried the two stone tablets in his hands.
5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name,
the LORD.
6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the
compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger,
abounding in love and faithfulness,
7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness,
rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty
unpunished; he punishes the children and their
children for the sin of the parents to the third and
fourth generation.”
8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped.
9 “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us.
Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our
wickedness and our sin, and take us as your
inheritance.”
10 Then the LORD said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do
wonders never before done in any nation in all
the world. The people you live among will see how
awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for
you.
11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites,
Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live
in the land where you are going, or they will be a
snare among you.
13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their
Asherah poles.[a]
14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a
jealous God.
15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute
themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them,
they will invite you and you will eat their
sacrifices.
16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those
daughters prostitute themselves to their gods,
they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 “Do not make any idols.
18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as
I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time
in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came
out of Egypt.
19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your
livestock, whether from herd or flock.
20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do
not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your
firstborn sons. “No one is to appear before me empty-handed.
21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing
season and harvest you must rest.
22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival
of Ingathering at the turn of the year.[b]
23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel.
24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land
when you go up three times each year to appear
before the LORD your God.
25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not
let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival
remain until morning.
26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God. “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I
have made a covenant with you and with Israel.”
28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking
water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of
the covenant—the Ten Commandments.




Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Aug 4 2012, 1:25 am Oh_Man Post #89

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So... as I was asking. Why is it that you base your morality purely off Ten Commandments (the ten chiseled in stone) and not the commandments your God gave to Moses orally.




Aug 4 2012, 1:38 am Jack Post #90

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Oh_Man
So... as I was asking. Why is it that you base your morality purely off Ten Commandments (the ten chiseled in stone) and not the commandments your God gave to Moses orally.
The ten chiseled into stone were also first given orally. The commandments spoken in Exodus 34 are ceremonial in nature, as they speak of sacrifices and specifics rather than morality, so they would be classified as part of the ceremonial law, and thus were abolished after Jesus' resurrection (see jjf28's explanation farther up). The moral laws are summarized in the Ten Commandments written in stone, and further summarized by Jesus as I said previously (love God with everything, and your neighbour as yourself).

In addition, the moral laws are spoken of as being written on men's hearts, so that they are without excuse (speaking of consciences of course). Pretty much everyone knows killing is a bad thing; this doesn't mean it is forbidden in every culture but everyone knows murder is bad.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Aug 4 2012, 1:59 am Oh_Man Post #91

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I don't understand how you are distinguishing 'ceremonial' commandments from moral commandments.
Quote
Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live
in the land where you are going, or they will be a
snare among you.
Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their
Asherah poles.
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a
jealous God.
Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute
themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them,
they will invite you and you will eat their
sacrifices.
Do not make any idols.
Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as
I commanded you.
"Ceremonial?" Some of those are near identical to the first set.

Basically, I'm asking how are you categorising commands your God gives you or someone else, either textually or orally. Surely every command from your God is a moral one? Because you believe your God to be omnibenevolent.




Aug 4 2012, 2:21 am Jack Post #92

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Oh_Man
I don't understand how you are distinguishing 'ceremonial' commandments from moral commandments.
Quote
Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live
in the land where you are going, or they will be a
snare among you.
Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their
Asherah poles.
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a
jealous God.
Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute
themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them,
they will invite you and you will eat their
sacrifices.
Do not make any idols.
Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as
I commanded you.
"Ceremonial?" Some of those are near identical to the first set.

Basically, I'm asking how are you categorising commands your God gives you or someone else, either textually or orally. Surely every command from your God is a moral one? Because you believe your God to be omnibenevolent.
None of those commandments seem at all identical, except perhaps the one about worshipping other gods.

All laws given by God are moral, that is, good. Not all of them are about morality, though. The Ten Commandments are very clearly about how to live a moral life, whereas the ceremonial laws are all laws about what to do in the Israelite worship of God, and the civil laws are about what to do in cases of crime and civil aspects. The moral law is unchanged through all time, as morals are set in stone (:P), whereas the civil law only applied to the nation of Israel, and the ceremonial law only applied to people before Christ's resurrection. I daresay most laws are extremely obvious as to which category they fall under.

Not eating certain kinds of animals holds no health benefits, so it is not a moral law. It has nothing to do with civil law, so it must be ceremonial. Killing someone who murders someone else is pretty clearly a civil law. Not lying is pretty clearly a moral law.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Aug 4 2012, 2:43 am Roy Post #93

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Jack
Not eating certain kinds of animals holds no health benefits, so it is not a moral law. It has nothing to do with civil law, so it must be ceremonial. Killing someone who murders someone else is pretty clearly a civil law. Not lying is pretty clearly a moral law.
I would say that wiping out an entire species (through hunting or other means) is immoral, and many people would agree, though I do not know if this is explicitly mentioned in the Bible (not too many environmentalists back then, I suspect). If something is not mentioned in the Bible, can you not deterministically say whether or not the action is moral, assuming morality comes from the word of God? I don't like the premise for this, because it would mean we cannot define our own morals, which I've argued against in previous posts.

And in the case of wiping out a species, who is morally responsible? The one to kill the last creature? The ones that hunted it for sport? Anyone involved, including someone who may have needed to do it to feed an innocent child?




Aug 5 2012, 4:16 am Oh_Man Post #94

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Quote from Jack
Quote from Oh_Man
I don't understand how you are distinguishing 'ceremonial' commandments from moral commandments.
Quote
Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live
in the land where you are going, or they will be a
snare among you.
Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their
Asherah poles.
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a
jealous God.
Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute
themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them,
they will invite you and you will eat their
sacrifices.
Do not make any idols.
Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as
I commanded you.
"Ceremonial?" Some of those are near identical to the first set.

Basically, I'm asking how are you categorising commands your God gives you or someone else, either textually or orally. Surely every command from your God is a moral one? Because you believe your God to be omnibenevolent.
None of those commandments seem at all identical, except perhaps the one about worshipping other gods.

All laws given by God are moral, that is, good. Not all of them are about morality, though. The Ten Commandments are very clearly about how to live a moral life, whereas the ceremonial laws are all laws about what to do in the Israelite worship of God, and the civil laws are about what to do in cases of crime and civil aspects. The moral law is unchanged through all time, as morals are set in stone (:P), whereas the civil law only applied to the nation of Israel, and the ceremonial law only applied to people before Christ's resurrection. I daresay most laws are extremely obvious as to which category they fall under.

Not eating certain kinds of animals holds no health benefits, so it is not a moral law. It has nothing to do with civil law, so it must be ceremonial. Killing someone who murders someone else is pretty clearly a civil law. Not lying is pretty clearly a moral law.
OK, I'm beginning to see the distinction now.

My next question to you would be:
Can your God declare a civil or ceremonial law (or any other commandment) that contradicts a moral one?

Such as:
"Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
"A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Etc.




Aug 5 2012, 4:59 am jjf28 Post #95

Cartography Artisan

Quote
My next question to you would be:
Can your God declare a civil or ceremonial law (or any other commandment) that contradicts a moral one?

Such as:
"Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13

...

I think there's a critical difference in wording to be observed in different translations, namely "kill" and "murder."

You'll find various versions using either wording: Exodus 20:13

While killing simply means to end the life of another being[1], murder entails something extra, typically that the killing is unlawful, or that it involves 'malice aforethought[2].' And if one is lawfully executed by his peers, it is not the case that they commit murder.

So I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction here that requires reconciliation - that being the case, i'll leave it to you if you wish to furnish a probabilistic argument for this example, or use a new one, to avoid exploring otherwise redundant questions.

[1] Define: kill
cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing)
to deprive of life : cause the death of

[2] Define: murder
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation
the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 5 2012, 5:11 am by jjf28.



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Aug 5 2012, 6:03 am Oh_Man Post #96

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Well spoken.

Well if Jack is to say that the commandment says, "do not kill unlawfully". I would then have to ask what constitutes lawful and unlawful killing (or rather, immoral and moral killing) since he is saying the ten commandments are the moral law, the ten commandments say nothing as to the specificity of killing.




Aug 5 2012, 7:30 am Jack Post #97

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

The civil laws are quite specific about what constitutes killing and murder. Manslaughter didn't have the same punishment as premeditated murder, for example, and as you pointed out, some killing was lawful. Other parts of the bible, however, explain just how far the commandment extends, saying that even unrighteous anger towards someone constitutes a breaking of the commandment, although obviously not as badly as actually physically murdering someone. Indeed, the commandments are pretty much all extended to include thoughts and motives, such as looking at a woman lustfully breaks the commandment 'Do not commit adultery.'

Hopefully that answered your question somewhat.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Aug 5 2012, 7:37 am Oh_Man Post #98

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I'm not sure I understand. I'm asking:

"Can your God declare a civil or ceremonial law (or any other commandment) that contradicts a moral one?"

Yes/No & Why?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 5 2012, 7:47 am by Oh_Man.




Aug 5 2012, 9:31 am Jack Post #99

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

I suppose He could but hasn't and won't, because then things would be rather confusing and chaotic.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Aug 5 2012, 9:22 pm Oh_Man Post #100

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OK, well I'm beginning to understand now. For clarification:
"Moral laws are absolute."
"Every other type of law ceremonial/whatever is transient."
"God has or never will make another type of law that would contradict a moral law."

Am I on the same page?




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