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Divine Command Theory
Jan 1 2012, 6:41 am
By: rayNimagi
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Jan 2 2012, 11:36 pm MillenniumArmy Post #41



http://www.allaboutworldview.org/premarital-sex.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/sex-before-marriage.html

Each of those links refer to bible verses which deal with sexual immorality, marriage, etc.

EDIT: As with many issues, this is a pretty big topic so I understand that having only a handful of verses/links will probably not do it. But if one really wants to dive into the subject of premarital sex, he or she should do some research on it instead of just saying "Oh God declared it for no reason whatsoever"



None.

Jan 2 2012, 11:40 pm Lanthanide Post #42



Quote from MillenniumArmy
People act as if God declared something to be good/bad/immoral/etc without any reasoning (i.e. simply because God said so). Name one instance where he has done so.
People shouldn't eat rock badgers.

Bonus: people should not wear clothing made of more than one fibre.



None.

Jan 3 2012, 12:32 am rayNimagi Post #43



Quote from Jack
Slavery's good. If done in the correct Christian Biblical way. The reason people nowadays believe that slavery is wrong is out of a backlash against the terrible treatment of slaves in America, particularly African and Scottish slaves who were stolen from their country and forced to work in the plantations of America. In an attempt to be politically correct, they refuse to allow even the slightest accusation of slavery. However, for example, imprisoning someone in a jail is a form of slavery.

Quote from rayNimagi
Quote from Jack
To say "oh I think theft is bad" when God has said it's good is to thumb your nose at the game developer and say "I'm going to take this mask off, and nothing will happen!" And then you take the mask off and die.
The difference between the game and real life is that good and bad were not clearly defined in the tutorial.
Collapse Box

I'd say that's a pretty clear tutorial.
What? Odin is the god of gods, the ancient Norse mythology was the one true religion. I've also heard you can also get into heaven by becoming a Mormon and switching out "Jesus" with "Chuck Norris" in the King James Bible.

This topic is to discuss whether we should follow the word of God (whether it be personal, Biblical, or from the Bhagavad Gita), not whose religious text is right. The problem I'm saying is:
People have different interpretations of God's/Gods' word, so
Determining which interpretation is right, if any, is difficult.

So to avoid that sort of conflict, in many of my situations, I have stated "IF the correct word of God was determined, would actions be good because God says those actions are good, or does morality rely on God's whim?" You have said that God defines morality. I am having trouble deciphering your argument--from what I understand, the only arguments you have said are:

God is omniscient, so he can do whatever he wants, and

"If there were another universe, theft might be moral. And because God made it moral, people wouldn't find it instinctively reprehensible." --to which I responded with the slavery argument (people object to something declared good in the Bible).

Quote
As I previously said, I'm assuming that the Abrahamic, Judeo-Christian God is real, as per defined in the Bible.
To which I raised the question: "If (perhaps in an alternate universe) God is not omnipotent, can morality still be defined by God?"

Quote from Jack
Quote from rayNimagi
Quote from Jack
People won't starve because people will care for each other more.
We could be a community of moral people during a drought, but there's still not enough to eat. Morality does not ensure success.
Rather, you wouldn't have one person eating extremely well and ten people outside his house starving. If we starve, we all starve. Assuming morality.
I'm talking about, "there's only enough food for half the people to survive," or, "there's no food for anyone, we're all going to die." Not gluttony. The argument is "Morality does not ensure success." If society as a whole improves (health, technology), it doesn't mean your latest action is moral.



Win by luck, lose by skill.

Jan 3 2012, 1:30 am Jack Post #44

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from rayNimagi
Quote from Jack
Slavery's good. If done in the correct Christian Biblical way. The reason people nowadays believe that slavery is wrong is out of a backlash against the terrible treatment of slaves in America, particularly African and Scottish slaves who were stolen from their country and forced to work in the plantations of America. In an attempt to be politically correct, they refuse to allow even the slightest accusation of slavery. However, for example, imprisoning someone in a jail is a form of slavery.

Quote from rayNimagi
Quote from Jack
To say "oh I think theft is bad" when God has said it's good is to thumb your nose at the game developer and say "I'm going to take this mask off, and nothing will happen!" And then you take the mask off and die.
The difference between the game and real life is that good and bad were not clearly defined in the tutorial.
Collapse Box

I'd say that's a pretty clear tutorial.
What? Odin is the god of gods, the ancient Norse mythology was the one true religion. I've also heard you can also get into heaven by becoming a Mormon and switching out "Jesus" with "Chuck Norris" in the King James Bible.
Idon't know what you're trying to say here.

Quote from ray
This topic is to discuss whether we should follow the word of God (whether it be personal, Biblical, or from the Bhagavad Gita), not whose religious text is right. The problem I'm saying is:
People have different interpretations of God's/Gods' word, so
Determining which interpretation is right, if any, is difficult.

So to avoid that sort of conflict, in many of my situations, I have stated "IF the correct word of God was determined, would actions be good because God says those actions are good, or does morality rely on God's whim?" You have said that God defines morality. I am having trouble deciphering your argument--from what I understand, the only arguments you have said are:
The problem with you trying to generalize different gods is that with each religion it's different. With Christianity, God defines morality, makes it what it is. He doesn't merely let us know what morality is, He CREATES morality, or rather chooses what it is, and THEN tells us what it is.
But with Odin, I daresay morality is something he too must follow. For the Greek gods, it certainly was, although they didn't generally live moral lives :P
Quote from ray

God is omniscient, so he can do whatever he wants, and

"If there were another universe, theft might be moral. And because God made it moral, people wouldn't find it instinctively reprehensible." --to which I responded with the slavery argument (people object to something declared good in the Bible).
Most people would not find Biblical slavery to be reprehensible. However, when you say slavery they immediately think of the slaves in America in the past and, naturally, find it to be a terrible thing.
Quote from ray
Quote
As I previously said, I'm assuming that the Abrahamic, Judeo-Christian God is real, as per defined in the Bible.
To which I raised the question: "If (perhaps in an alternate universe) God is not omnipotent, can morality still be defined by God?"
Depends on if the god of the alternate universe is powerful enough to define morality, doesn't it?
Quote from ray
Quote from Jack
Quote from rayNimagi
Quote from Jack
People won't starve because people will care for each other more.
We could be a community of moral people during a drought, but there's still not enough to eat. Morality does not ensure success.
Rather, you wouldn't have one person eating extremely well and ten people outside his house starving. If we starve, we all starve. Assuming morality.
I'm talking about, "there's only enough food for half the people to survive," or, "there's no food for anyone, we're all going to die." Not gluttony. The argument is "Morality does not ensure success." If society as a whole improves (health, technology), it doesn't mean your latest action is moral.
I never argued that morality ensures success, merely that it makes things a lot easier.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Jan 3 2012, 2:03 am Lanthanide Post #45



Quote from Jack
I never argued that morality ensures success, merely that it makes things a lot easier.
Actually you made the direct link between becoming more moral and the success of the maori, when I've outlined that it is civilization (of which a moral code is a part of) that improved their condition, not morals by themselves. I see you've backtracked from that position, now.



None.

Jan 3 2012, 2:11 am MillenniumArmy Post #46



Quote from Lanthanide
People shouldn't eat rock badgers.
Leviticus 11 addresses issues like this. This gives commentary about the book while this addresses the bigger picture.

Quote from Lanthanide
Bonus: people should not wear clothing made of more than one fibre.
To put it bluntly, like with the previous one, this also deals with the issue of holiness. For further details see here and here



None.

Jan 3 2012, 2:17 am Jack Post #47

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Lanthanide
Quote from Jack
I never argued that morality ensures success, merely that it makes things a lot easier.
Actually you made the direct link between becoming more moral and the success of the maori, when I've outlined that it is civilization (of which a moral code is a part of) that improved their condition, not morals by themselves. I see you've backtracked from that position, now.




Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Jan 3 2012, 2:39 am Lanthanide Post #48



Quote from MillenniumArmy
Leviticus 11 addresses issues like this. This gives commentary about the book while this addresses the bigger picture.

To put it bluntly, like with the previous one, this also deals with the issue of holiness. For further details see here and here
So basically god says don't eat these things and don't dress like that because it's "unholy". Not much of a reason, but I guess it is a reason.



None.

Jan 21 2012, 4:32 am rayNimagi Post #49



I've thought a bit more about divine command theory and have this to say:

Assuming the command was truly from a higher power, if a command is issued, a person logically should do it. This does not occur necessarily out of love for God, but as an act of self interest. (The person would be rewarded for following God's orders.)



Win by luck, lose by skill.

Jul 28 2012, 3:34 pm Tank_7 Post #50



Quote from rayNimagi
I've thought a bit more about divine command theory and have this to say:

Assuming the command was truly from a higher power, if a command is issued, a person logically should do it. This does not occur necessarily out of love for God, but as an act of self interest. (The person would be rewarded for following God's orders.)

Exactly this "self interest" is what disgusts me most with zealous religious believers. One of the best Einstein quotes hits this concept out of the baseball stadium. Now, it was said/written in a time when "men did everything" so try to apply a little gender equality to what he's saying.

Quote
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.




None.

Jul 28 2012, 4:46 pm jjf28 Post #51

Cartography Artisan

Quote from name:Luke 10:25-28
One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: "Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" 27 The man answered, "'you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" 28 "Right!" Jesus told him. "Do this and you will live!"

Doesn't seem like such a bad thing to act in your best interests if it means there's that much more love in the world!

I do find it interesting that theologically we are clearly permitted to act in our own self interests (Luke 6, 35; Matthew 5, 19); but it's not as if one has to be acting out of self-interests (see level 2&3 of Kohlberg's theory of moral development). While it may be the intuitive response to say moralists are acting in their self-interests, the major theories of moral development suggest this is not where the buck stops - the divine commands (which I would equate to the universal ethical principles, not stage 4 (which I would equate to human law), since divine command theory is a stab at Objective Morality) may well become a person’s sense of right and wrong, and upheld for no ulterior motive. But, once again, I don't see what's particularly wrong with acting for oneself if it means they will engage in moral behavior.



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Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

Jul 28 2012, 8:46 pm Oh_Man Post #52

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

Quote from Tank_7
Quote from rayNimagi
I've thought a bit more about divine command theory and have this to say:

Assuming the command was truly from a higher power, if a command is issued, a person logically should do it. This does not occur necessarily out of love for God, but as an act of self interest. (The person would be rewarded for following God's orders.)

Exactly this "self interest" is what disgusts me most with zealous religious believers. One of the best Einstein quotes hits this concept out of the baseball stadium. Now, it was said/written in a time when "men did everything" so try to apply a little gender equality to what he's saying.

Quote
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
Mmmm, yes, it disgusts me as well.

Voltaire ridiculed it best, however: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."




Jul 28 2012, 9:04 pm Jack Post #53

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Christian morality allows acting out of self-interest, but also requires acting out of interest to others in equal measure (love your neighbour as yourself, which assumes you love yourself and requires that you love everyone else just as much), and most of all, that you love God more than you love your neighbour and yourself. (love the Lord your God with all your soul, strength, and mind). If you are acting only out of self-interest then you're not following either commandment, and if your motives for outwardly following these commandments is for how it benefits you then your motive is wrong as well; you should be loving God and your neighbours because you want to, not because of how it will benefit you.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Jul 28 2012, 9:13 pm Roy Post #54

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

Quote from Jack
If you are acting only out of self-interest then you're not following either commandment, and if your motives for outwardly following these commandments is for how it benefits you then your motive is wrong as well; you should be loving God and your neighbours because you want to, not because of how it will benefit you.
Ah, but if you naturally wanted to love God and your neighbors, then you wouldn't be following any religious constructs (i.e., your behavior wouldn't change if those constructs never existed). The constructs are thereby completely useless, because anyone who changes their behavior based on those constructs are doing so out of self-interest, which as you pointed out, isn't following the constructs in the first place.




Jul 28 2012, 9:29 pm Oh_Man Post #55

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

Which means, in terms of morality, Occam's Razor removes God from the equation altogether.

ANALOGY: 1+1 + 0 = 2.

Hey... wait a second! + 0 isn't even necessary! And it doesn't even do anything!




Jul 28 2012, 10:56 pm ClansAreForGays Post #56



Quote from Oh_Man
Which means, in terms of morality, Occam's Razor removes God from the equation altogether.

ANALOGY: 1+1 + 0 = 2.

Hey... wait a second! + 0 isn't even necessary! And it doesn't even do anything!
:facepalm:
It's like you just figured out what Occam's Razor is from a First Cause debate, and threw it in the middle of this because it has something to do with god.
Nothing to do with what they're talking about...




Jul 29 2012, 12:05 am Oh_Man Post #57

Find Me On Discord (Brood War UMS Community & Staredit Network)

Read Roy's post above mine.




Jul 29 2012, 12:25 am Jack Post #58

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Roy
Quote from Jack
If you are acting only out of self-interest then you're not following either commandment, and if your motives for outwardly following these commandments is for how it benefits you then your motive is wrong as well; you should be loving God and your neighbours because you want to, not because of how it will benefit you.
Ah, but if you naturally wanted to love God and your neighbors, then you wouldn't be following any religious constructs (i.e., your behavior wouldn't change if those constructs never existed). The constructs are thereby completely useless, because anyone who changes their behavior based on those constructs are doing so out of self-interest, which as you pointed out, isn't following the constructs in the first place.
But the reason for wanting to love God and your neighbours isn't natural, it comes from conversion to Christianity. In addition, the religious constructs (presumably you mean the commandments in the Bible) give us the moral framework to work with so that we know exactly how to best love God and our neighbours.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

Jul 29 2012, 1:50 am Roy Post #59

An artist's depiction of an Extended Unit Death

But is that initial conversion to Christianity free of self-interest? Here's the reasons I think of for converting over to Christianity (maybe you can help brainstorm more!):

1) Your family or peers are Christian and brought you into it
2) You fear the repercussions of not being a Christian
3) You have a life-changing experience that convinces you that Christianity is the one true religion (e.g., surviving a crash that should have certainly killed you and having God talk to you while you're in the coma)
4) Unprovoked, you picked up a copy of the Bible and gave it a read, after which you come to the conclusion of purely your own influence that it is accurate and indeed the word of God

The first reason is an act of self-interest because you want to belong; you want to be accepted. You don't want to disappoint your parents, to be an outcast among your peers. In this scenario, if you grew up in an Islamic culture, with Muslim parents and Muslim peers, you would most certainly be a Muslim yourself.

The second reason is obviously an act of self-interest because you don't want eternal suffering to be inflicted on yourself. Alternatively, you want an eternal reward for your faithfulness. Again, if you were instilled with this fear from another prominent religion first, you'd very likely worship some other deity for self preservation.

The third reason would not necessarily be out of self-interest unless influenced by the other two reasons. If, for example, in your coma God told you that Judaism is the only true religion, would you fully accept that, despite you, your family, and your peers being of Christian persuasion? Or would you pass it off as "I nearly died and was having weird dreams" and continue to hold your current faith, praising the Christian God (who technically is the same God, but you get my point) for sparing your life? And even if you do turn to Judaism, would it not be likely that you only do so because you fear eternal damnation for ignoring the voice of God?

The fourth scenario never happens, the reason being that religion is basically never introduced without an agenda. When you introduce someone to Christianity that has never heard of it before, you sell them the information as fact (much like you would if you were promoting diet and exercise, for example), rather than allowing them to reach their own conclusion. It is possible that you can stumble upon the Bible without ever having heard of Christianity, but by the time you're at an age where you can comprehend the ideas and messages inside it, you'd have already been knowledgeable of your parents' beliefs, and perhaps your peers' beliefs as well. Now, even if this scenario were to occur, the same scenario would be able to occur for any other religious book, and if you were able to be influenced so assuredly on your own from reading the book, it would just be a game of which holy book you read first. Apparently the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, for example, are very influential.

Clearly in these scenarios, there's not much room for you not acting out of self-interest. Though to be honest, anything can be broken down into a self-interest, and it's somewhat of an unfair argument or a moot point to make in that regard. If acting only out of self interest isn't enough, then it's likely that most people you know aren't going to make the cut. And if you've ever done something and thought, "Oh, that wasn't very Christian of me," or you've ever held spite for someone and reminded yourself "love thy neighbor" to stop hating them, you're acting out of self-interest. Going back to your last post:
Quote from Jack
[Y]ou should be loving God and your neighbours because you want to, not because of how it will benefit you.
I think with that you'll find yourself wanting to want to (i.e., you want to because it's right to want to), which is just a holier-than-thou philosophy.




Jul 29 2012, 2:19 am Jack Post #60

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

I think a combination of 1 and 4 is what generally happens, although the reason for becoming a Christian as a result of what your family and peers and the Bible say is not because you want to be accepted by them, or not in my case. I can't exactly explain how I became a Christian, but I am one. And I realize my belief in God is illogical (according to pure logic, in which case all beliefs are illogical), but that doesn't make it any less real to me and it isn't something I can un-believe. So for me, there was no self-interest in my conversion. Self-interest would generally shy away from Christianity, anyway, as following God generally means making sacrifices without any benefits; one would have to believe strongly in heaven before following the commandments of the Bible outwardly out of self-interest.

I can definitely see what you're saying but I lack the eloquence to properly reply to it, other than "I disagree" :P



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

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