As it should be, in any game

There are plenty of games where the AI is purposely made to act dumber than it could be, so that it doesn't become more favorable to have a bot than another human player. Players should always want to choose having a human over having a bot.

We've been playing this a lot recently, trying to get it back on Up and Coming to get that necessary popularity boost that the bnet system forces upon us. Feel free to come along and give it a whirl!

Just thought we'd let you know that we managed to get onto Up and Coming, and as expected have had a massive popularity boost. Archer is just about complete, so the next major patch will include him.

What have you guys decided to do about the spawn meeting areas? I don't mind letting the defending team have the high ground but Its kind of lame that even the ranged heros have to walk up the ramp into the spawn and possible cannon fire to get any farm at night. I would suggest making them meet at the base of the ramp/out of the brush (bottom base) or in the middle so everyone has a more even playing field. It would also help if you synch the spawns with the bases so you don't have two minions running into cannons uselessly.

Can't wait for the Archer!!!

The two minions going into cannons is changeable but the other problem is not, if I recall correctly, because of how pushing works. If you've captured an outpost, you're going to always have your spawn pushing towards their base because of the extra two spawn, until you reach the cannons. So the spawn meeting point most of the time will always be at the cannons, unless both people who are feeding in that lane are good at feeding such that the spawn stays at it's original meeting point, which should be approximately the centre of the outpost and the first set of cannons (until the aforementioned pushing effect comes into play).

http://youtu.be/2pUBk5Jtapo

^ I've made a video introducing the map and explaining how to play the basics. Comment/rate/subscribe yadiyadiya!

I suggest putting that video on the map overview page. And while you're at it, toggle the setting that allows players to move themselves in lobby and hosts to boot people.

Well, that was done to prevent 6vs4 teams.
But these are possible anyway because bnet requires some fixes. Max team size was set properly and it failed.

Also, Hosts can't boot people in public games I believe. (Maybe only, if you make a private game public.)

For the Dark Mage, I was thinking maybe moving her spells around a bit. Make her L1 like ensnare from SC1, her T feedback. and her old disable for L2. Or possibly giving her back her DA and making ensnare her T. I have also noticed that sometimes I would fall behind on upgrades an not be able to one-hit spawns with heroes that should have no problem doing so, I think the only hero i was able to get defense ups for was the warrior and volt when I got to roaches.

Here's an idea, for LM's l2.

Instead of just one big ball of attack, how about make it an alternate quick and strong attack that burns mana per shot. Still tied to the arcane damage upgrade and could be toggled on and off.

l2 is just weak right now as it is. At least it is compared to what lm is capable of doing with straight up attack ups. l2 just feels like that uncomfortable bit between your extremely awesome l3 and extremely awesome l1.

Hmmm... LM l2's mechanics are sound, but they require the LM to be really close to the enemy to do anything, which can be troublesome with how slow he moves... Not sure, we will have to talk about it. I do know, however, that at minimum distance the spell destroys any hero it hits. I think it's just how much the damage goes down at the end of its range that's the problem. We could make the spell more like TS1, where it launches 3 orbs towards the target point in quick succession instead of just one powerful one.

@Dark Mage - Feedback doesn't feel strong enough to me, but it is certainly very annoying to enemies. I'm not sure about making her l1 a root tho, that would push her over the edge of just barely being OP right now xD We will probably keep her as is for now.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 4 2013, 7:26 pm by luzz.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify enough. I meant old school ensnare, the aoe slow she had in SC1. Not the root she currently has.

EDIT: Tried the archer, His vision at night is pretty much nonexistent. I couldn't see a warrior until he was pretty much on top of me and Kerrigan can start her ult and walk into me before i can even react.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 5 2013, 12:59 am by Wing Zero.

Just had an idea for war l4.

Instead of DR, which is silly, because it's just a more powerful rehash of l1, why not make it so the zealot takes a fraction of damage dealt with l4, like say, 10-20%. Which can teen be subject to DR like his l1 (or the other way around, it really doesn't matter). You could also make it so debilitating effects are reduced in time as well.

Just and idea that popped into my head because of immortal mechanics.

This way it provides equal protection against large hits as well as small ones. Broodlings are just as effective as LM's l2 vs. war, and it's not favored disproportionately (ignoring l1).

I was thinking of making it so that whenever he takes damage, a projectile is sent out to the source of the damage and hits them back, of course it would have some kind of cooldown between each strike though. Then make an upgrade for his L1 that boosts the mana cost, duration and initial set amount of shields. People are complaining about how good shield upgrades are anyway, this would give an excuse to drop it down to like 0.75:1 instead of 1:1

Sounds a lot like DM l3.

I was thinking DR from l1 can be applied before percentage reduction. The real problem with war l4 is that it is too strong against some heroes and too weak against others. It also scales extremely poorly.

Edit: here's my take on balance so far.


Assault

Assault l1 is ludicrously overpowered, to the point of even being better than plenty of l2s. An 80 mineral barrier into vortex really doesn't solve much either. Even without vortex it's a force to be reckoned with and certainly enough to stop many melee characters in their tracks. I would suggest removing the slow effect and decreasing the cost of vortex to at most 60 minerals (an entry barrier doesn't actually fix an overpowered ability, it just makes it harder to obtain it).

Assault l4 is seemingly worthless, at least I haven't seen it being used in any games. My experience with it was "meh" at best. As far as l4s go it's probably the worst one.


Mech


Mech's l4 is a tad too strong. Huge range, huge damage. It's a kill everything around me button that, unlike a lot of other l4s, doesn't require timing, planning, or any sort of execution other than pressing R.


Mutant

Mutant l0 simply does too much damage to him to be effective outside of short, planned bursts or quickly running back to base. Even in the first case it has questionable use.

Mutant l3 is too difficult to aim and too slow to actually hit anything. It also has a tendency for its spines to not hit everything in its area of effect (for creep killing), making it overall quite underpowered. It can be usefully combined with l2 because of the short daze duration, but that's not even worth three stat points. The only reason any mutant would get it is because it's a small bonus on the way to getting l4.


Special Ops

Stim is a rather overpowered ability, while it costs 5% of life, that really doesn't help justify the massive bonus it gives. It just outshines every other enhancement l0. I really would consider nerfing it just to fit into the scheme of l0 spells. Most spec. ops go massive amounts of hp, so the hp cost hardly becomes an issue.

Gizmo, his l2, is the best l2 in the game, and I mean that in a very, very bad way. It's overpowered, and more useful than the lm's l3 or archer's l3. The Daze it causes and subsequent explosion is freakishly strong (which is the main problem). It also moves quickly and doesn't have any range restrictions unlike summy or lm. The fact it explodes upon death to daze enemies makes it terrifying for any melee fighter, and if you don't have a mobility spell (lm l3, sin l0, assault l0), you're pretty much screwed. It can be spammed three times in a row with a mere 100 mana, ensuring a quick death to most characters without so much of a chance to fight back.

Penetrator round (iirc), his l3, is underpowered and next to worthless. It might just be the worst l3 in the game, even in spite of its range.


Warrior

Warrior's l0? It's the worst l0 in the game. 33% more damage for 33% faster attack rate isn't even a very fair trade unless you're not being attacked in the first place. Thus, it can only be used in circumstances where the warrior is in no danger. During combat (which is what the warrior is supposed to be about), it's effectively useless, unless during that combat there's no danger to the warrior. It can be stacked with l2, but more on that later.

Heroic charge, warrior's l2, is a seemingly good idea at first, but it quickly becomes a double edged sword. It can trap a number of heroes who lack mobility and effectively give you a chance to kill them, but it can be useless against others. Also, it locks you in your own cage, ensuring that it's a turkey shoot for any ranged enemy teammates out to get you. Hardly an ideal situation. This makes it lack in consistency; it's strong in some cases, weak or even just harmful in others. I'm unsure how to fix it, but possibly by losing some bit of the spell to bolster a different part so it has less vulnerability (it feels a bit one-trick-pony like).

My l4 issues are documented above, it also lacks consistency. It makes you virtually impervious to some heroes while a waste of mana for others.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 9 2013, 5:32 am by Sacrieur.

Thanks for these suggestions Sac.
We'll definitely run through these in due time.

Coming from an old school TS Vet, I do not even know where to start, and I am not a mapmaker; I am just a loyal fan of TS so I am just going to throw a few issues out there:

- Assims positioning is completely out of wack. None of them are protected, on the old map 4 were in protected zones (capture points) meaning there was actually an incentive to capturing these points. Building an assim, then cannon, and pylon takes a huge amount of investment especially when there are COOLDOWNS on assims (What?). Why are there cooldown's on building assims? Furthermore, this makes it feel like capturing positions a pointless gesture.

- How come we cannot build spawn like in the old one? This added a refreshing strategic element to the game.

- Why the stupid limitation on summoner? He was never overpowered in the original one, high risk high reward hero. He had hard counters, plus everyone had access to his universal weakness (reavers).

- Why was volt made to do damage? Same with firebat? Some heroes roles were not to do DPS but to provide utility and damage through auto-attacks. Also why is Volts L2 a ranged spell. Through his massive playmaker/Pointman role he was supposed to be on the front lines making plays not hiding trying to hit people with random L2's.

- Teleport on LM. If that doesn't scream some type of imbalance I do not know what is. Probably the most DAMAGING hero in TS1.

- The dropship, Fbats signature skill (Nuke, if you are really really old school) is absolutely garbage. Again why the dumb limitation on it? Also why make his L1 a DPS spell when his old one was a utility spell with massive uses.

- Assassin: A Blink with Decap, enough said. Even with your arbitrary limitations trying to stop it. Hilariously Overpowered. I guess you have to make up for his shitty L3 because capture points are near useless in this version.

Just some random thoughts from what I have played.

I agree that it's unnecessary. Although, it was worse in previous versions, since your minions would actually die outside your range so you had no choice but to play that way. The leash was on you as a player, rather than just the units. It's been loosened a bit, but it's still there.

I had suggested just giving them a slight speed debuff outside your range instead:


Although instead of "rather than", they went with "in addition to", which seems like overkill.

SC2 made it possible to bypass the limitations of SC1, but in this case it's been used to make something even more limited, and without benefit. No one (who was decent) in the original TS ever said "summoner so imba, he needs nerf", so I'm not sure where the idea came from. You don't have to play many TS games to know that Summoner isn't broken by any measure, it's just different, and that uniqueness is a good thing.

In reality, a leash effect could have been accomplished in SC1, it's just that no one ever felt the need to do it since it's an unnecessary restriction, and doesn't really fit with one of the Summoner's most unique, appealing, and primary playstyles: the ability for effective long-distance remote control while maintaining relative safety.

I get that the idea here is to give people an incentive to leave safety so they'll be more likely to use their abilities. However, I really feel that the original Summoner's most appealing characteristic was one of freedom. You were really free to play however you wanted to. Many Summoners would go to the front lines, using Dark Swarm to help their minions take down cannons. The frequency with which this happened during the game depended largely on how the player themselves felt like playing, and what they felt the situation called for at the time. A player could spend 90% of the game in safety, and still be a good Summoner, depending on how effectively they used their minions and the other 10% of the time. They were usually able to sim as well due to the nature of that playstyle.

However, the leash mechanic is being used to discourage players from this playstyle by removing choice from the equation. At some point the punishment for not playing an aggressive Summoner is severe enough that you can't play well otherwise, and that's unfortunate.

My reasoning at the time for simply giving them a slight speed debuff:


The last part refers to a Summoner improvement which has been discussed, where the Summoner can move while burrowed. This not only does what SC2 should be doing (bypassing limitations instead of creating new ones), but it's something that really fits with the Summoner's various playstyles. It allows the Summoner to more easily engage other players when being aggressive, or more easily use hit-and-run tactics while primarily staying back. It maintains the player's ability to choose, incentivizing aggressive play while increasing the player's freedom instead of restricting it.

(Note: To prevent future misunderstanding, this previous part was explaining why movement-while-burrowed should remain in the game, since it was stated that the ability was under consideration).

I think the leash mechanic is a really good idea, but it's just being applied in a way that makes people see it as a bad thing. If the minions had the freedom to do whatever they want to, and being within the leash range gave them some additional buff, people would look at the mechanic as a positive rather than a negative, and it'd still provide the desired incentive to have players be more aggressive while maintaining the player's ability to choose when and if it's appropriate to do so.

My suggestions can be summarized as follows:

1) Remove all the minion debuffs.
2) If it's actually necessary, then reduce the minion default speed to the current debuffed speed.
3) Give the minions a speed buff while inside leash range.

A suggestion in addition to those:

4) Give the Summoner the ability to remove the leash restriction, such as through an optional upgrade which applies the leash buff regardless of distance. Another way of accomplishing this would be if he could increase his leash range, significantly enough each time that after 3 or less upgrades, it will always cover the entire map. Yet another possibility is to have an additional speed upgrade available for the minions, which would increase the base speed of the minions to the buffed speed so the additional buff of the leash becomes really beneficial.

The leash should be used in a way that makes people thankful for it, and gives benefits to the player, rather than something that chokes the player and punishes them for trying to utilize the freedom which the class has always managed to offer before.

And lastly:

5) The Summoner can move while burrowed.

The original TS Summoner was something fresh and unique, with a focus on player freedom, which is why a lot of players liked it so much. The same reasons are responsible for why many of those same people are dissatisfied with the new Summoner. I get the impression that the leash mechanic isn't going anywhere, so instead of suggesting that it be removed, I've made suggestions which incorporate both the mechanic and its intended goal of adding incentives for using non-summoning abilities (which I find a strange design goal for a Summoner; it surely would be better for everyone to aim for enhancing and adding to the summoning experience, rather than restricting it and detracting from it, which really draws into question the need for a debuff leash or a spell like Fungal Growth which has zero relation to or interaction with the summoned minions).

The goal of having players be more aggressive can be achieved without punishing players for choosing not to, and I hope you're able to work something out so the class can maintain the defining qualities that made it special.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Mar 21 2013, 2:23 pm by Azrael.

Wow. Good post Az, I really agree with everything you said. Little long though, but very spot on.

One thing that you emphasized was the freedom of what summoner could do according to the players' particular playstyle. The restriction on the summoner is definitely seen as a negative rather than something encouraging alternate methods of play. In his current incarnation he is weak and bad, he really needs to be tweaked up. One other thing I want to point out, is if summoner plays passively for 15minutes to farm. The game was essentially 2v3, which put pressure on his teamates to survive which was another weakness of his. I do not think the leash is necessary.

Another thing I want to point out here is that his hardest counters do not really counter him anymore:

-Specops no classic L4
-Mutant Lurkers
-Assaults dropship is trash

And a host of others.

Another thing I am wondering why take out DM's orb. It made her unique, cool, and powerful but with the trade-off to potentially feed. Making her a high skill ceiling hero. The simplification of DM really sticks out to me as an arbitrary change for no reason. It also reduces her capture potential tremendously.

Another thing I want to touch upon:

Sacreuir said:
Warrior

"Warrior's l0? It's the worst l0 in the game. 33% more damage for 33% faster attack rate isn't even a very fair trade unless you're not being attacked in the first place. Thus, it can only be used in circumstances where the warrior is in no danger. During combat (which is what the warrior is supposed to be about), it's effectively useless, unless during that combat there's no danger to the warrior. It can be stacked with l2, but more on that later.

Heroic charge, warrior's l2, is a seemingly good idea at first, but it quickly becomes a double edged sword. It can trap a number of heroes who lack mobility and effectively give you a chance to kill them, but it can be useless against others. Also, it locks you in your own cage, ensuring that it's a turkey shoot for any ranged enemy teammates out to get you. Hardly an ideal situation. This makes it lack in consistency; it's strong in some cases, weak or even just harmful in others. I'm unsure how to fix it, but possibly by losing some bit of the spell to bolster a different part so it has less vulnerability (it feels a bit one-trick-pony like).

My l4 issues are documented above, it also lacks consistency. It makes you virtually impervious to some heroes while a waste of mana for others."

That is how it was in TS1, against certain heroes it was good (SpecOps and Archer) while others it could be a death sentence (LM and DM). And against others it was useless (Sin and Bat). It does not have to useful against everyone, which I think the point was.

Yes you do get shot at by ranged heros, but the same applied in TS1. However, since you should be building armor he shrugs it off fairly easily.

In regards to his L4 the same in TS1 good against certain heroes (Archer, Spec Ops), trash against others (Sin and DM).

And yes his L0 is trash I agree.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 19 2013, 7:01 pm by HighGuyInBankai.

Hi there. Thanks for giving us feedback, it's greatly appreciated. You brought up quite a few points and I'll attempt to answer them.
Now, in the order of your post:

- We made Assims spread out and unprotected in order to cause more teamfights and a higher risk vs. reward. Assims now give 1 mineral every so seconds, rather than 15 minerals after a long time, so building it means getting an advantage very quickly, much faster than it was in TS1.

- We are not focused on building spawn buildings right now. We have a few ideas going, like making it able to purchase waves from each gateway.

- The reason for Summy's leash is to force it to come out to play, rather than stay in the base. We're confident that this mechanic provides more counterplay for summoner's opponents. Balance-wise, it's debatable and summoner will probably be changed in the course of the map's (currently slow) development.

- Volt's Shockwave is actually currently looked at and may be nerfed soon. There is no firebat hero in the game. If you mean the Assault, then yes, he's being looked at as well.

- The teleportation on LM is mechanically sound. We can look into it, perhaps add a short effect time for Light Essence or the Teleportation itself so there is a fair warning.

- The Assault (assuming your Fbat = Assault) has been re-invented from the start. The "Must-Land-After-a-While" is to prevent a easy stun-lock as balance, as it now does damage as well. We do want to prevent easy stun-locks as it is frustrating for the opponent, unless the player has to put a lot skill into it.

- Oh yes, we know.

@Azrael.
You make a good point about summoner's debuff. We can work with it. Although, can you elaborate on your second last paragraph? I don't quite understand.

@Warrior
We will look into it. Sorry if that's an unsatisfactory answer