Hi SEN! I am from Korean so please understand my English.
Do you know EUD or EPD?
EUD(EPD) is the most powerful thing that can enable triggers that basic triggers can't
I know EUD is well-known in SEN.
But as I see, you are using just condition EUD triggers. (Detect HP, texts, ....)
In Korea, We use both condition and actions.
Maybe you think "The Blizzard block EUD action triggers, but How?"
The answer is this. We use a launcher.


[W launcher]

This launcher have many features. Among them, What I want to say is 'Enabling EUD'
With this program, we can use EUD actions triggers in games.
Of course all players have to run this program when they are playing maps that use EUD action triggers.
But doesn't matter. Most of Korean players are using this launcher because this one is the best among the launchers. (Mini, Chaos, Aqua[Aqua is dead])


You can find EUD maps easily in Korea private server.


Screenshot one of EUD maps

So the point is,
With EUD, you can make all maps that you imagine.
http://www.staredit.net/topic/2360/ If this triggers can be realized, SC1 will be reformed.

Hello there, swb4u1.

Our local SEN resident and StarCraft enthusiast FaRTy1billion was one of the first individuals to release a tool to enable EUD Actions (at least the first among the US/EU demographic). It's completely independent, which is why I prefer it over bloated launchers. You can check it out here: http://www.staredit.net/topic/10525/.

As for http://www.staredit.net/topic/2360/, the project seems to be discontinued. Although, Farty has been looking for something to do.

Hello Roy.
Sure, I know Farty's EUD Enabler and it's the first thing.
Also it's great that is independent.
But contrastively, the 'independence' is the trouble.
When you play EUD maps with your friends, you can say them "Run the EUD Enabler beforehand!"
But in Battle.net, Most of users don't join the room with EUD Enabler. Also host can't know whether the player is running that.
In this aspect, Due to launcher is a widespread program , when launcher contains EUD enabler, The situation I said above will not happen. (W Launcher can check whether other players are using W launcher.)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 20 2011, 3:20 am by swb4u1.

Wow, another Korean - Nice to meet you!

Edit : Deleted the Korean part. I found it pointless.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 20 2011, 4:38 am by zzt.

I understand what are you saying.
But you know, If the http://www.staredit.net/topic/2360/ will come out, The SC1 maps will be innovated., I think.
And Although I can understand Korean, Due to This site is not a Korea site, Please use English. SEN users will be annoyed.

Being able to tell which players are running the launcher is certainly beneficial, it would actually make it possible to play maps publicly which used EUD actions. I wonder how popular such a launcher could become on US East/West assuming that one isn't already?

If everyone is forced to modify their StarCraft clients to play a map anyway why have the mapmakers go through the hassle of EUDs? Have everyone run a mod in the traditional sense, which has much more "natural" ways to edit the .dat tables (the only application of EUD actions I've seen other people use), and potentially much more flexible in that it can also modify every aspect of StarCraft.

Distributing work in that fashion can be cumbersome, as compared to just hosting a map. In that case it indeed would be better to have "common extensions" in all clients, like new trigger conditions/actions or new scenario.chk chunks, and have maps developed around them. And in that case I don't understand what EUDs have to do with it, as they were originally hacky indirect methods for extending _unmodified_ StarCraft.

Regardless, in the Western hemisphere at least nothing of this sort exists and probably never will (that will gain a user base), and curiosity led me to make this with EUD actions in case you're interested: http://www.staredit.net/files/2161/

Although I don't understand what are you saying on the whole, I reply this question.
1. There are some SC1 mods. One day, Tom wants to play custom mod named 'A' with his friends. He called his friends and said, "Let's play A. Run your mod."
They finished their game and they want to play another mod named 'B'. So they quit their mod then launch another mod. Equally, they finish their game and they want to play original SC maps, So they quit their mod and launch origianl SC.

=Compare=

Brad wanted to play EUD maps. he launched the EUD enabler and just joined the Battle.net game.
Soon, he wanted to play non-EUD maps. He quitted the game he was playing, and join an another game.

2. Custom mods can't be popular. Mods can be only promoted by Web site, not in Battle.net.
Whereas, EUD maps can be promoted by both Battle.net and Web Site.
When the player create the game room in Battle.net which play EUD map, the map will be exposed to other users automatically.

3. EUD can most of things that Draft can.
Typical things that EUD can't realization is Changing Images. But except that, most of functions can realized with EUD.
In addition, When it comes to editing images, it isn't Starcraft anymore.

4. It's map maker's passion.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 20 2011, 9:37 am by swb4u1.

1. A mapmaker wants to edit a marine's weapon ID to a ghost's. He either 1) uses an external program to find the offsets for him, or 2) calculates the offsets manually, and in either case has to enter arbitrary looking numbers into the editor which are unintuitive at first glance.

=Compare=

Player(1)
Always()
SetUnitWeapon(Marine,Ghost)

Both methods require mods anyway (like with a launcher), I think the second option is better. What I'm trying to get across here is that I don't see why EUDs are important with mods.

As of now, I don't know of any editors that support EUD actions in an efficient way (SCMDraft doesn't support it in its text editor). Therefore if we're talking about future development of StarCraft extensions, let's try to develop something more easier and intuitive than EUDs, which you even mentioned in your opening post.

EUDMods will change everything.

2. I directly addressed this in my second paragraph. Every time you play StarCraft with a launcher, you are running a mod. You could share "extended" maps on the server (with new conditions/actions, and even new arbitrary data in the scenario.chk), like you normally would, and it would be playable if all players are running the modified client to interpret this extended data. There's no need to leave battle.net.

3. That's arguable. At the very least editing the palette entries for some cool effects wouldn't be that bad.

4. Personally it loses meaning when trying to work around limits that already can be worked around ><

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Nov 20 2011, 6:57 pm by yoonkwun.

I think this kind of launcher would be more versatile, easier to use, and much easier to make widespread than any sort of standard modding.

What really makes it more effective is that you are using trigger actions which we could use previously, actions which everyone has access to and anyone can use. If someone else makes a map using them, and they host it on Bnet, you can immediately join and play it without having to update or change anything, or having to setup anything with them ahead of time.

Apparently this is already commonly used on the Korean server, so it isn't just a theory. The only problem is making a similar launcher for North American servers and then getting it popularized.

I'm talking from a mapmaking perspective as well. I don't know how much versatile and easier to use EUD actions are compared to the type of extensions I talked about. Not to mention the only thing users of a launcher would need to do to implement said extensions would be to download a plugin of a sort.


Not anymore. I understand if we're talking about making maps once playable with EUD Actions playable again, but the topic title EUD will change everything doesn't make it seem as such.


Except for those without mods (launcher=mod).

There is one quite big difference between a mod approach and a EUD approach. EUDs will work based on starcraft. Mods however depend on the version of your mod. If you've got a map that requires mod 1.3 to play and you're running 1.2, it might screw up or not work properly, etc.

Trying to co-ordinate mods would be incredibly impractical. In that respect I think it'd be best, were an extensions mod to be created, for a lot of work and bug-fixing to be put into it, so that it can be released once and stabilised so we wouldn't have maps that require specific versions.

Okay, except EUD actions are more accessible since everyone is working from the same base. You don't need an extension for every new map you want to play, or to download a ton of plug-ins, or to change your settings every time you want to play a map which utilizes different things (or is a normal map without anything additional).


The topic title is simply stating everything will be changed if EUD actions are publicly available for mapmakers again, and is presenting a way to do so. Maps which use EUD actions would be playable again, not just with people who you managed to get together at some predesignated time to play a couple maps once each. They would be playable publicly, and that is true whether or not the OP was specifically pointing that out.


Right, everyone who uses the launcher can play every such map without ever downloading anything else that's additional, past and future, because the mapmaker is using actions which everyone has access to and anyone can use. They can also continue to play normal maps without any problem.


Okay, feel free to come up with something that is much easier and more intuitive than EUDs, and then implement it in a way which makes it just as accessible. Then, make this super launcher also able to play maps with EUD actions in them. I think everyone will be satisfied then.

There is no way to "replace" EUD action functionality with something better, because any "superior" system can additionally run EUD actions, something there is always going to be some level of demand for.

That being the case, I think the whole "launcher which doesn't run EUD actions but does other modding stuff" is a bit off-topic.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 21 2011, 3:10 am by Azrael.Wrath.

The bottom line is this. This topic is about how EUD actions will change everything. EUD actions are extensions. They require modded StarCraft.

All I'm doing is making a general statement that since we're talking about modded StarCraft, why restrict ourselves to EUD actions? Everyone here agrees that EUD actions are unintuitive; who wants to calculate EPs and offsetted values? And there are things EUD actions can't do that other extensions could.

The argument is this: because of how readily available and static "EUD action enabling" is now, it is and will be more accessible. There are already maps utilizing EUD actions, tools to play them, tools to make them, and the process won't ever change.

In an ideal hypothetical world (where people still cared to actively develop programs related to StarCraft), it wouldn't be a 100% implausible idea to employ my "common extensions". Participants still have to download a type of launcher, download a type of plugin/extension (like they currently do with EUD actions).

They can still play normal maps, they can still play EUD action maps, and they can play my extended maps. No leaving battle.net, no downloading more plugins, no changing settings. People who don't have the plugin can't play it. Neither can people without EUD actions enabled play EUD action maps.

You might say that the standards of StarCraft at this point are written in stone and my extensions will never gain popularity which might be true, well that won't happen in an ideal hypothetical world. Perhaps people will come to realize the benefits of said extensions.

If version conflicts is a problem, that's an issue from the extension developer viewpoint on forward-compatibility. It would be possible to develop it forward-compatibly.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Nov 20 2011, 10:54 pm by yoonkwun.

Reading users posts, I realize one thing that I was overlooking.
Using EUD, In UMS, when marine get 'level up', marine can get New maximum HP point or Shield or New Weapon and so on.
But using Mods, as far as I know, That can't happen.

This is only true in the traditional sense of a "mod", where only StarCraft _data_ is modified.

However, in my definition of a mod, programs like launchers and hacks which modify StarCraft CODE "mod" StarCraft, therefore the StarCraft instance is a "mod". Therefore, anything EUDs can do mods can do.

I'm also talking about extending the map format as well, which my "mod" could interpret. So a trigger could easily set a new maximum HP simply by defining a new action (SetUnitMaximumHP?).

I like playing Starcraft because it's Starcraft. If I wanted a super versatile platform I'd be making games for sc2.
Fundamentally changing the game like this just ruins it imo.
Why not just use EUD's to install and launch a starcraft 2 mod on someone's computer?

Hacks are much easier to make than EUD. If you want to gain the full capability of a hack using EUD you would essentially have to embed actual code in the map in a weird and painful way.

Also, please post the download link when you're finished.

Az, I think what he's suggesting is instead of making some mod with random crazy units, or whatever, you make a mod that just has support for more trigger actions (and conditions, I guess).

So add triggers like:
Add/Subtract x to [unit] HP
Add/Subtract x to [unit] energy
Bring x [unit] to [location] with [y] HP
Bring x [unit] to [location] with [y] energy

Basically everything you can do with EUDs, but turn them into actually useful trigger actions and conditions. This would also be a lot more flexible than unit EUDs that required you to know the unit index ahead of time and are so only really useful for monitoring specifically controlled units, rather than any random unit the player wants to use (as could be done with the Bring conditions above).