Staredit Network > Forums > Null > Topic: More math shit!
More math shit!
Nov 7 2011, 5:26 pm
By: poison_us  

Nov 7 2011, 5:26 pm poison_us Post #1

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First, let's provide some ground rules. This is to be a topic for all math problems that you'd like others to take a crack at. It is not to be a topic for troll mathematics, and any post within this topic should adhere to that notion. While questions may be suggested to be included in this topic, they must be approved before they appear in the OP (or follow-up post) and minerals are assigned. To have minerals assigned to your question, you will need to specify the amount and send that amount to the winner; I do not want, nor need, to handle your minerals for you. The member that asks the question, if it is assigned minerals, is expected to pay the amount that was specified. When minerals are paid is not up to me, and I take no responsibility for paying out minerals. Please note that the problems listed herein are not homework problems. You have professors/teachers for that, go ask them for help. Along those same lines, any/all work should be shown in your answer.

TL;DR: Not a troll topic, if you offer minerals you pay up, ask someone/somewhere else for homework help. If you're solving, show work.

Question 1spacer!Prize: 0 mineralsspacer!Asker: poison_us
(Sorry, this is just to start the topic. It's more of a prelude to #2 than an actual problem anyways.)
So let's say we have a circle with radius r. Imagine seven of these circles. The most spatially-efficient way to arrange them, in two dimensions, would be by touching the sides of as many of them together at the same time as possible, correct? Now, let's visualize that:



Alrighty, so good so far. Since we only need one "gap", the picture can be reduced to three circles.



So here's the question: what is the area, in terms of the radius of all circles (r), that lies between the center circle and two adjacent (both to the center circle and to each other) circles?

Hint

Solution



Question 2spacer!Prize: ≥30 mineralsspacer!poison_us
Alright, so since we know the area of the gap between a two-dimensional figure, let's find it between a three dimensional figure. Yes, I want the smallest gap possible between spheres of radius r. Whether that means the additional layer of spheres is nested in the gap between lower layers, creating a staggered stack of spheres, or the layer is laying directly on top of the bottom layer is up to you.

Hint

Solution


Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Nov 8 2011, 5:26 pm by poison_us.




Nov 7 2011, 5:27 pm poison_us Post #2

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<Reserved>




Nov 7 2011, 7:42 pm Aristocrat Post #3



...Except that "gap" is a contiguous portion of space when spheres are dense-packed, rather than being discrete isolated sections like the two-dimensional analogue, so I'm not sure what you are asking for. Assuming you're asking for what I think you are asking for, then when taking a unit cell of a dense-packed sphere configuration, exactly (1 - π/3sqrt(2)) of that space is empty.



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Nov 7 2011, 7:58 pm poison_us Post #4

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Alright, let me point out the smallest problem here: you need an r. The question is not asking for a unit cell, it's asking in terms of r, and attempting to find the wasted space between any touching set of the spheres. You did the math without showing work, as well. I was operating under the assumption that anyone solving a problem would show their work, which I figure now I need to explicitly state.

Regardless, I should also have elaborated; the volume should be calculated in a manner similar to the way the area in Question #1 was. I intended it to be from the center of each sphere that are being considered for the volume.


Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 7 2011, 8:03 pm by poison_us. Reason: area → volume




Nov 7 2011, 7:59 pm matefkr Post #5



in 3D i think, you can't fully enclose a volume with spheres, there will be holes opening to it. not sure about this one, i just thought as one progressively ads spheres there will be a window all the time to the previous area which has been attempted to close. So it can't be answered this way, if the above logic is true.

EDIT: i didn't see your post. anyway, you could elaborate what do you mean by smallest gap.



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Nov 7 2011, 8:04 pm poison_us Post #6

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The densest packing of spheres possible will always have a gap between any four touching spheres. I want to know what the volume of empty space between each sphere is, in terms of the sphere's radius, assuming that all spheres have the same radius.




Nov 7 2011, 8:31 pm Sacrieur Post #7

Still Napping

Think regular tetrahedron.



None.

Nov 7 2011, 8:41 pm Aristocrat Post #8



Quote from Sacrieur
Think regular tetrahedron.

Tetrahedra do not tile space. The unit cell for sphere packing is a hexagonal prism.

EDIT> The fact that you're asking for the answer in terms of r bothers me; I can define a "unit cell" differently and get a different answer. Either give us your definition of the unit cell, or ask for the fraction of space remaining rather than an answer in terms of r.

EDIT2> http://www.staredit.net/?p=shoutbox&view=1514

EDIT3> Because poison isn't willing to accept an obviously correct answer: http://www.staredit.net/?p=shoutbox&view=1515

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Nov 7 2011, 9:35 pm by Aristocrat.



None.

Nov 8 2011, 3:44 am Vrael Post #9



All my minerals for the solution to any one of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_mathematics



None.

Nov 8 2011, 4:20 am poison_us Post #10

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Quote from Aristocrat
EDIT3> Because poison isn't willing to accept an obviously correct answer: http://www.staredit.net/?p=shoutbox&view=1515
http://www.staredit.net/?p=shoutbox&view=1516




Nov 8 2011, 4:22 am Aristocrat Post #11



Quote from poison_us
Quote from Aristocrat
EDIT3> Because poison isn't willing to accept an obviously correct answer: http://www.staredit.net/?p=shoutbox&view=1515
http://www.staredit.net/?p=shoutbox&view=1516

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=volume+of+tetrahedron



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Nov 8 2011, 4:47 am poison_us Post #12

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron
http://www.mathpath.net/tetrahedron.php
http://whistleralley.com/polyhedra/tetrahedron.htm




Nov 8 2011, 4:52 am Aristocrat Post #13



And they all match exactly what I posted, so I don't know what you're smoking here.



None.

Nov 8 2011, 5:47 am Sacrieur Post #14

Still Napping

First we start with the volume of a tetrahedron. Which with sides 2r, would have a volume of 8r³/(6√2). This then simplifies to 4/(3√2) r³.

We then subtract the volume of the spheres inside of the tetrahedron. This may become slightly tricky with our current approach, but there is still a solution. To help visualize I'll employ my whiteboard.



So then, we simply find the volume of the tetrahedron and curved top.

The Tetrahedron
-
Our tetrahedron is fortunately regular, and so the volume may be found easily. The volume is then, quite easily, found to be r³/(6√2).

The Curved Top
-
This presents more of a challenge. Much more, actually, and probably best found with calculus. I'll leave it up to you guys (+20 minerals if you can do it without calculus).



None.

Nov 8 2011, 6:07 am Aristocrat Post #15



Quote from Sacrieur
The Curved Top
-
This presents more of a challenge. Much more, actually, and probably best found with calculus. I'll leave it up to you guys (+20 minerals if you can do it without calculus).

But I already found it sans-calculus several posts back.



None.

Nov 8 2011, 7:18 am Sacrieur Post #16

Still Napping

Quote from Aristocrat
Quote from Sacrieur
The Curved Top
-
This presents more of a challenge. Much more, actually, and probably best found with calculus. I'll leave it up to you guys (+20 minerals if you can do it without calculus).

But I already found it sans-calculus several posts back.

Oh so you did.



None.

Nov 8 2011, 1:21 pm poison_us Post #17

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You're on cocaine, or simply did not check the sites I linked.

From your link:
From all of the others:

Do they still match? I would have given you the minerals a while back, but since the second image came from multiple sites, I'm more willing to trust it than Wolfram.

Even substituting in 2r, you still don't get "r^3 2sqrt(3)/2", which can be simplified to r3 √3 anyways. So, either you're blindly taking a √2 and making it into a √3 in your problem, or you're attempting to troll. I must assume the latter, because if I didn't it would insinuate you're mentally deficient, which I don't think you are.

EDIT: I guess I could explain why you're not getting the minerals yet. Here goes: You provide a source for your volume that clearly contradicts your work. Ignoring whose volume is correct, I fail to see how you could make a substitution for a variable times two and change from √2 to √3. Furthermore, I'm curious as to where the 6 in the denominator (from wolfram; a 12 before substituting in 2r for whatever variable my sources used) went to give you a 2. You expect me to award minerals for an answer that simply does not make sense for the easiest part of it.

EDIT2: It's not that I don't want you to get minerals for a question you solved "minutes" after I posted it, I don't want to accept an answer that is wrong even by sources you quote. Do you expect me to not check any of these answers? That you think you can throw them down and expect me to just hand out minerals? Your word that an answer is right is not acceptable proof for me.


Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Nov 8 2011, 1:50 pm by poison_us.




Nov 8 2011, 4:05 pm Aristocrat Post #18



Quote from poison_us
You're on cocaine, or simply did not check the sites I linked.

From your link:
From all of the others:

Do they still match? I would have given you the minerals a while back, but since the second image came from multiple sites, I'm more willing to trust it than Wolfram.
They match exactly, and when substituting 2r, yields exactly what I posted.

Just stop. If you are unwilling to part with your minerals, fine, but if you're going to call a correct answer incorrect to save face, that crosses the line.



None.

Nov 8 2011, 4:58 pm Sacrieur Post #19

Still Napping

The reason we use Wolfram over other sources of math information is largely because Wolfram is far more complete, home to the computational engine Wolfram|Alpha, and creator of Wolfram Mathematica. For example, when defining local extrema, Wolfram is the only source I've seen to explicitly mention the use of a neighborhood.

If it disagreed with numbers of other sources I'd look very hard at what the issue is, because I find it hard to believe that the math gurus as Wolfram really made a mistake, and far more likely that I'm just overlooking something.



None.

Nov 8 2011, 5:12 pm poison_us Post #20

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Aristocrat, you used "r^3 2sqrt(3)/2" as your volume for the tetrahedron in the shout. That is not the same value as what you have from Wolfram. Please, stop accusing me of being unwilling to pay and trying to find errors where they don't exist to save face; correct yourself when you've been proven wrong several times by several sites. I completely understand that Wolfram substituted in 2r for a. That's not the issue. The issue is you blatantly ignoring what I'm saying and reiterating you are completely and totally correct without even glancing at what I'm saying.

You don't realize what I'm getting at do you? You cited a source that has a formula that is right, but wrote a wrong answer because the volume is not "r^3 2sqrt(3)/2". No site lists the formula as containing a √3. All you have to do is admit you mistyped the √2 as √3, and I'll even ignore that you somehow changed from your shout, which insists that the volume is "r^3 2sqrt(3)/2" rather than the correct (2r3√2)/3.

If it's such a big deal that you get 30 minerals, I'll give you 300. Just fucking pay attention to an argument that is being presented against you in the future.





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