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Game of Thrones
Nov 4 2011, 6:59 am
By: TomWaits
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Jul 2 2016, 3:07 pm Dem0n Post #41

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

If Jon had known about the Knights of the Vale, he, not being the best tactician, would've just had them on the battlefield with the rest of the men. Seeing this large force, Ramsey would have just retreated to Winterfell and held out there. They wouldn't have been able to storm the gate with that many archers along the walls. The only reason Wun Wun was able to break down the door was because there were only a couple of archers on the wall, and he still died. Imagine if there had been an entire army there shooting arrows at him. The only way to beat Ramsey was to catch him off-guard, and the only way to do that was to flank his men after they had already committed. Jon wouldn't have agreed with that plan, since he didn't think much of Sansa's advice, so he would've just had them charge with the other men, and like I said, Ramsey wouldn't have fought that.




Jul 2 2016, 4:39 pm Oh_Man Post #42

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A much better way to do this and also satisfy people's complaints about dumbness is to simply have Sansa say to John in that room "I have a plan..." then it cuts to the next scene and then the battle goes accordingly but then the Vale shows up in a way that surprises the viewers but not the characters themselves as they had planned for Vale to flank from behind at a strategically significant time.

They could then have also deleted that scene where Sansa writes on parchment, making the Vale arrival less obvious to viewers. Ramsay would not have known to retreat to Winterfell because the Vale would still be kept as a surprise attack, like it was in the show as is.

This way John would have had more agency as he would have been in on Sansa's plan. As it is now it's more like Sansa is really the true victor here while John has been saved by her. You can't really say what Jon may or may not have done because let's be honest you can't make claims to his character like that. His character does whatever the writers want him to do.




Jul 2 2016, 5:19 pm NudeRaider Post #43

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from Dem0n
If Jon had known about the Knights of the Vale, he, not being the best tactician, would've just had them on the battlefield with the rest of the men. Seeing this large force, Ramsey would have just retreated to Winterfell and held out there. They wouldn't have been able to storm the gate with that many archers along the walls. The only reason Wun Wun was able to break down the door was because there were only a couple of archers on the wall, and he still died. Imagine if there had been an entire army there shooting arrows at him. The only way to beat Ramsey was to catch him off-guard, and the only way to do that was to flank his men after they had already committed. Jon wouldn't have agreed with that plan, since he didn't think much of Sansa's advice, so he would've just had them charge with the other men, and like I said, Ramsey wouldn't have fought that.
It's plausible, but a lot of speculation. If it was actually what GRRM imagined, you gotta show some of these backgrounds, and not just hope everyone implies it, to make the characters believable.



Quote from Dem0n
The whole point was that it was a hopeless battle from start to finish, and Jon's army literally never had a chance to win on their own.
My whole point is that if you KNOW you'll likely lose you have 2 options: Don't fight, or fight. If you do fight you DO EVERYTHING to make it happen. You KNOW if you become an emotional baby or mindless zealot you are gonna die AND lose. You go to battle WITH THAT MINDSET. You are focused. Seeing none of that was a disappointment, especially since they KNEW their brother is practically already lost and the sadist WILL USE THAT psychologically. I would have liked to see Jon evolve from his emotionally driven past after all he's been through and the responsibility he bears now. That would've been badass. It could have easily been shown that DESPITE THEIR BEST EFFORTS they lose because of being underequipped and too understaffed. Sorry, but I just don't enjoy watching grown up men being idiots when EVERYTHING is at stake.



Quote from Dem0n
Also, I really don't understand what all of you people are expecting from this show. Are you expecting huge battles that cost $100 million to create every single episode? Are you expecting each episode to have animated dragons and white walker armies flooding the screen?
Season 6 was one of the best seasons; how can you even say otherwise? [skipping insults]
I'd like to remind you of my disclaimer:
Quote from NudeRaider
Sorry for the rambling, I realize GoT is usually better than this [the battle scene].
and of my specific complaint:
Quote from NudeRaider
And yeah, season 6 was one of the most boring because all the cool shit happened at the end.
The amount of cool shit was MORE THAN sufficient. It was just not spread well enough.
The siege / dragon fight could've easily been in earlier episodes. And packing the boring 'Bran learns his past' parts after cool scenes.

Btw. I don't need mass fighting / CGI scenes with huge budgets to be happy. Typical GoT-moments like 'red wedding' or 'hold the door' are even more powerful imo. They really set this show apart. So after several hours without either I get less happy, obviously. ;)



Also
Quote from Dem0n
Season 6 was one of the best seasons; how can you even say otherwise?
needs more tits. :bleh:


oh and sorry for the caps. I was too lazy to use tags. :P




Jul 4 2016, 10:33 am LoveLess Post #44

Let me show you how to hump without making love.

Quote from Dem0n
If Jon had known about the Knights of the Vale, he, not being the best tactician, would've just had them on the battlefield with the rest of the men. Seeing this large force, Ramsey would have just retreated to Winterfell and held out there. They wouldn't have been able to storm the gate with that many archers along the walls. The only reason Wun Wun was able to break down the door was because there were only a couple of archers on the wall, and he still died. Imagine if there had been an entire army there shooting arrows at him. The only way to beat Ramsey was to catch him off-guard, and the only way to do that was to flank his men after they had already committed. Jon wouldn't have agreed with that plan, since he didn't think much of Sansa's advice, so he would've just had them charge with the other men, and like I said, Ramsey wouldn't have fought that.

If I remember right, part of their strategy meeting was that they didn't have enough men to pull of a proper strategy.


Quote from Oh_Man
I think you guys are also forgetting another dumb thing:

Sansa not telling Jon about the incoming Vale army. This made NO sense because she even tries to get Jon to stop the attack. Let me pull up the episode so I can get direct quotes...

Quote
Sansa: "If you would have asked for my advice earlier I would have told you not to attack Winterfell until we have a larger force, or is that obvious too?"

Jon, yelling at this point: "When will we have a larger force? We've pleaded with every house that will have us. The Blackfish can't help us. We're lucky to have this many men.

Sansa: "It's not enough."

Jon: "No. It's not enough. It's what we have. Battles have been won against greater odds."

Sansa: "If Ramsay wins I'm not going back there alive etc etc."


So here Sansa is trying to get Jon to wait. Jon says no point in waiting our army isn't getting any bigger. BUT SANSA KNOWS THE VALE IS EN ROUTE. All she has to do is tell Jon this, he would wait for the reinforcements, then attack when he had the numbers!! It makes no fucking sense!!!

I still don't know why she kept the secret from Jon either. Even in ep 10 Jon doesn't even seem to care/ask about how Vale got there, why he wasn't told - nothing. I think the show is so action packed now it's starting to forget about things like logic and proper character motivations and just focusing on making big blockbuster scenes. Which is a shame.


The whole thing about Sansa being ashamed of asking the Vale for help. Asking Littlefinger for help. I mean when she ran into Jon she probably told him all about his manipulative ass.



None.

Jul 4 2016, 11:31 am Oh_Man Post #45

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Well, Loveless, check out this video.


Anyone feel like everything the actors said isn't actually reflected in the episodes?? They seem to make out there's some hectic Sansa and Jon rivalry developing. I just don't see it.




Jul 5 2016, 8:12 pm LoveLess Post #46

Let me show you how to hump without making love.

Quote from Oh_Man
Well, Loveless, check out this video.



Anyone feel like everything the actors said isn't actually reflected in the episodes?? They seem to make out there's some hectic Sansa and Jon rivalry developing. I just don't see it.
They made that last scene where she looks at Littlefinger out to be some kind of, "What the hell..." Though didn't Littlefinger sit there telling her off that she needs to take the reigns because nobody is going to back a bastard? Then they did so and he was completely wrong.

Or am I missing something?

I really hope he doesn't kill little lady Mormont.



None.

Jul 5 2016, 10:03 pm jjf28 Post #47

Cartography Artisan

Quote from LoveLess
Quote from Oh_Man
Well, Loveless, check out this video.

[expletive deleted]

Anyone feel like everything the actors said isn't actually reflected in the episodes?? They seem to make out there's some hectic Sansa and Jon rivalry developing. I just don't see it.
They made that last scene where she looks at Littlefinger out to be some kind of, "What the hell..." Though didn't Littlefinger sit there telling her off that she needs to take the reigns because nobody is going to back a bastard? Then they did so and he was completely wrong.

Or am I missing something?

I really hope he doesn't kill little lady Mormont.

I interpreted the look more as: "the ladder just got 10 feet higher" :kame:



TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github

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Nov 14 2016, 10:39 am jjf28 Post #48

Cartography Artisan

Minor Predictions




TheNitesWhoSay - Clan Aura - github

Reached the top of StarCraft theory crafting 2:12 AM CST, August 2nd, 2014.

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