Quote from NudeRaider

Quote from Dem0nS1ayer

Quote from MC²Voyager7456

We're at a Starcraft forum, not a White House dinner. SEN in its prime was rarely classy in its Null forum - it may have exhibited professionalism in the mapping forums, but elsewhere, we could unwind a bit.

SEN's response to the community's slow demise has consistently been "Let's focus on mapping, crack down on everything else. If only we could focus people on making maps, we'll regain our former glory." And I think that approach has failed, primarily because a big part of the draw to SEN is the sense of community.

Having what is essentially a proclamation from the Fun Police makes me feel like I'm living in an internment camp, not a family.

I think that whole idea of restoring SEN to its "former glory" was incredibly arrogant at the least. Members come and leave frequently, and no matter what you do, you can never restore something to its original status. I think everyone here just has a hard time believing that there are other people in the world (ie sc2mapster) that actually know more about mapping than they do.

Strike the sentence about classyness. It doesn't convey what I mean.
This is not about rescuing mapping or restoring SEN glory. It's about you kids getting worse and worse and a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Also I find it rather odd that you only feel welcome or "in a family" when you're allowed make a fool of others or to boycott forum games and other topics, or in other words allowed to troll. To me that sounds like you're just protesting because you feel your freedom being taken away, which is understandable. But as I said, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

While I agree that some topics in Null are completely pointless, saying there there will be a "crackdown" is a bit over-dramatic for a.. situation(?) like this.

Quote from NudeRaider

you kids

Quote

Also I find it rather odd that you only feel welcome or "in a family" when you're allowed make a fool of others or to boycott forum games and other topics, or in other words allowed to troll. To me that sounds like you're just protesting because you feel your freedom being taken away, which is understandable. But as I said, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

It's the whole "us-against-them" mentality the moderation seems to have adopted recently. Your whole post reeks of condescension.

I'm not sure if this is a massive joke or if you just need to go outside.

Quote

An 'other' topic is a topic that facilitates a discussion or interest that can be beneficial for both the topic starter and those replying

This is the key point- whether you personally as a moderator find a topic interesting is rather irrelevant.

No offense, but at this point in time, this whole idea is kinda dumb...

Making Null even more boring is putting another nail in SEN's coffin, and I don't know how many more nails can be put into that thing to be honest.

Quote from Excalibur

@Dem0n
Less maps for sure, but a lot less shitty ones too. If given the choice between 10 topics of shit maps by people with no interest in improving or none at all, I'd choose none. Same goes for topics in Null.

Sorry for getting into the discussion from nowhere, but this reminded me of when I was a SEN member for just a few weeks and started making my first SC1 map.

I worked pretty damn hard on that map for a couple of days and then posted it in the map production section. I remember very well of the first response that I received: "Scrap the whole idea, it's crap."
I never got to finish that map, nor did I ever finish any other - I only got strongly demotivated to continue making SC maps when I realized I'd have no support, no motivation, no testers what-so-ever. At least that's what I thought after receiving such venom-filled response from a SC map-making community (which is rather ironic).

Honestly, I don't know if these problems still persist today, since I only come here sometimes to see Null and what's going on in the SB, but I just think you're being so severe on the rules..at the wrong time (and maybe even at the wrong forum section).

Quote from Adeon

Honestly, I don't know if these problems still persist today

They do, in the Melee Map section that Ex rules with an iron fist, where he ruthlessly cuts down anyone who displays any interest in making a map if they don't get it perfect first time.

You can see Ex hasn't changed his elitest attitude at all where he said this earlier in the thread:

Quote from Excalibur

If given the choice between 10 topics of shit maps by people with no interest in improving or none at all, I'd choose none. Same goes for topics in Null.

If only we lived in a world where everyone could be perfect, just like him.

Quote from MC²Voyager7456

Quote from NudeRaider

you kids

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Also I find it rather odd that you only feel welcome or "in a family" when you're allowed make a fool of others or to boycott forum games and other topics, or in other words allowed to troll. To me that sounds like you're just protesting because you feel your freedom being taken away, which is understandable. But as I said, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

It's the whole "us-against-them" mentality the moderation seems to have adopted recently. Your whole post reeks of condescension.

Actually I wouldn't include you with the "kids". That was addressing whoever is amused by all this childish fun that is floating around. Do I think that puts me above them? I guess I have to answer that with a "Well, in a way..." I'm probably just older and thus laugh about different things. And what made my post look conceited was that I'm actually annoyed by these posting trends and that I used the chance to rant about it.

Also I don't know what you mean exactly with "us against them". I mean sure, we mods are here to keep everyone in line so in a sense we are against offenders, but I wouldn't say we've seperated us from non-mods if that's what you mean. I moderate staff just like anyone else. (Devlin can confirm that. )
To be honest I get the impression that it's the other way around considering for the most part you just picked on my attitude but completely ignored my points. Also sigs like "Devlin's asleep - post" look more like seperation to me than anything I've said.

Probably guilt on both "sides". Anyways, I wouldn't even go as far and declaring sides. I feel as much part of the community as everyone else around here. I'd say there's a few "trouble makers" but even those are part of the community. They just require more attention and/or a firm hand (imo).

Quote from Lanthanide

Quote from Adeon

Honestly, I don't know if these problems still persist today

They do, in the Melee Map section that Ex rules with an iron fist, where he ruthlessly cuts down anyone who displays any interest in making a map if they don't get it perfect first time.

You can see Ex hasn't changed his elitest attitude at all where he said this earlier in the thread:

Quote from Excalibur

If given the choice between 10 topics of shit maps by people with no interest in improving or none at all, I'd choose none. Same goes for topics in Null.

If only we lived in a world where everyone could be perfect, just like him.

You aren't helping yourself.

Nude, the point they are making is that you are lumping problem posters together as being "the people that cause problems, yes them, over there, you immature kids."

k. done editing.

Before anyone goes and gathers some pitchforks and torches, you may want to look at Null's recently closed topics:




The fact that topics like the majority of those (a few exceptions for the legitimate topics in the list) are created about six or seven times a month in a community of our size should be indicative of something. The topics that are created because the preceding topic was locked for spam are the worst offenders, and if Null presents itself as an area where that is acceptable, I am in full support in drawing that line of which you speak.

Happy to say that only two of those are mine... One being a joke topic that was closed because it was mocking a "member", and the other was me making a point, but the mods just didn't get it.

A majority of those topics are by Tempz.

Quote from Roy

Before anyone goes and gathers some pitchforks and torches, you may want to look at Null's recently closed topics:




The fact that topics like the majority of those (a few exceptions for the legitimate topics in the list) are created about six or seven times a month in a community of our size should be indicative of something. The topics that are created because the preceding topic was locked for spam are the worst offenders, and if Null presents itself as an area where that is acceptable, I am in full support in drawing that line of which you speak.

Quote from lil-Inferno

A majority of those topics are by Tempz.

Yeah, I say we burn Tempz and Kame. Problem solved.

But we really do love mesk

Tempz isn't a troll, he just got topics closed by misunderstanding what trolling is, and saying that he was, when he wasn't.

Or maybe that's just how clever he actually is...

Lotta problems would be solved if people were kicked for repeat offenses. I personally learned my lesson a long time ago and stopped making absolutely shitty posts, unless the topic deems one necessary.

Quote from Excalibur

I'm not saying you need to conform to Light Discussion type standards.

LD has standards? I'm serious.

Quote from Roy

Before anyone goes and gathers some pitchforks and torches, you may want to look at Null's recently closed topics:

[snip]

The fact that topics like the majority of those (a few exceptions for the legitimate topics in the list) are created about six or seven times a month in a community of our size should be indicative of something. The topics that are created because the preceding topic was locked for spam are the worst offenders, and if Null presents itself as an area where that is acceptable, I am in full support in drawing that line of which you speak.

To back up my point in my first post, I think I closed a majority of those topics and would continue to do so otherwise. Hell, I closed Kame's most recent thread as well (Excal reopened/closed it to make his point). I get that sometimes Null has /b/-like threads, but we delete/close them and move on as we always have.

Quote from NudeRaider

Actually I wouldn't include you with the "kids". That was addressing whoever is amused by all this childish fun that is floating around.

I will say that I was slightly offended, as well, about the "kid" remark considering I love to make dumb jokes and troll occasionally like the rest of 'em. I am just as easily amused by all the "childish fun" but I also do my job and moderate it when need be. I don't think it has anything to do with age or maturity, it's just clearly a different style of humor.

After becoming a moderator on a much larger, less stable community (gasp kevin has power), I respect Ex's efforts and support it. I think the reason SEN has survived this long is because of its tight community and its high standards (esp. in the rules), and we shouldn't let that deteriorate.
I may not post on SEN much anymore, but I'm still very proud of SEN's intellectual standard compared to other sites. Excalibur's quality control would absolutely kill some other sites, namely mine. SEN has the smart community, the powerful ToS and rules, and the staff that can handle it.

Quote from Roy

Before anyone goes and gathers some pitchforks and torches, you may want to look at Null's recently closed topics:




The fact that topics like the majority of those (a few exceptions for the legitimate topics in the list) are created about six or seven times a month in a community of our size should be indicative of something. The topics that are created because the preceding topic was locked for spam are the worst offenders, and if Null presents itself as an area where that is acceptable, I am in full support in drawing that line of which you speak.

This.

Quote from [Riney]:]

Lotta problems would be solved if people were kicked for repeat offenses. I personally learned my lesson a long time ago and stopped making absolutely shitty posts, unless the topic deems one necessary.

And this. I won't go into specific examples in public posting.

Quote from l)ark_ssj9kevin

After becoming a moderator on a much larger, less stable community (gasp kevin has power), I respect Ex's efforts and support it. I think the reason SEN has survived this long is because of its tight community and its high standards (esp. in the rules), and we shouldn't let that deteriorate.
I may not post on SEN much anymore, but I'm still very proud of SEN's intellectual standard compared to other sites. Excalibur's quality control would absolutely kill some other sites, namely mine. SEN has the smart community, the powerful ToS and rules, and the staff that can handle it.

And bonus points to you.

Without hoping to derail this thread too much,

wob: quick post ponies! go go

When is CecilSunkure 're-coding' SEN? And to what extent?
Are there any solid plans to replace the shoutbox with an embedded IRC applet?
Where are we going with this whole 'mapping' business? Can we get some peeps together and publish something legit for SC2 in the next 6 months?
I just noticed - the shoutbox displays your 'local' time. There should really be a SEN time (probably most common timezone for users, or an average) that is universal. Makes co-ordinating stuff easier. We are a small but global community after all.
^ These issues, in my humblest of opinions, are far more relevant and important than tighter policing on Null. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be acerbic and understand the reasoning and underlying causes for this thread to exist - but as I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread:

The 'Most Recent Posts' box on every page at SEN is misleading and causes Null to get 'bad-rep', if I may phrase it that way. Topics come and go, things get said, they get read, people move on. Some topics require closing and severity awarded, I appreciate that. Would it help matters at all if Null posts were omitted from the 'most recent posts', and forum users were then allowed to browse Null manually at their own discretion without it literally 'becoming SEN'. I appreciate forum games are kept in Null, maybe there could be a specific Forum Games 'section' and these would still appear in the recent topics?

/thinking out loud for the interests of SEN