People love their precious scape goats. And why not? They're convenient, they're simple, and it gives us someone to blame and point the finger at. And when we can't blame games, music, movies, or minorities the only people left to turn to is our youth, teenagers.

It doesn't matter how many washed up adults drive their drunken asses into an old lady. Because If a few teenagers do it then we got to assume that all teenagers are drunken irresponsible morons. It's a fact of life, if you're a middle aged white man and a few men around the same age do stupid shit, then you're completely immune to the consequences. Instead of wasting our time looking for answers we just look for affirmation, that automatically our age makes us smarter, and that automatically, a different group of people are just built to be stupid.

Welcome to the underaged drinking thread. And my arguments will consist of my usual tired devices -

1. I'll be using my usual 'holier than thou' tone of voice. Because hey, how else can I try out to be the next Jesus?
2. I'll be pointing out how absolutely hypocritical people are on the issue.
3. Emphasize on consistency

So, I was reading up on a forum where a teenager was asking where he could hide his liquor bottles because he was underaged. And to no surprise, this behaviour was condemned. And as usual, me with my god damned moral complexion, decided it was time to go on a rant thinly disguised as a topic with some actual substance. Well, no, I'm just kidding. It's a shame I had to ruin my joke by blatantly saying it was a joke, but sadly I know too damn well that at least three people are going to miss it and use that exact same quote against me.

I'm against underaged drinking laws. And I personally believe that just because something's against the law that doesn't make it immoral or even that bad. In fact, lets take a good look at the drinking laws in some places. In some places, the drinking law is 21. Personally I think this law is completely moronic because you can join the army by 18. So essentially, what this law tells me is that you're allowed to be trained to kill someone by eighteen, and that you're even allowed to kill someone by eighteen, but you're not allowed to have even one beer. Where I live, New Brunswick, the drinking age is a bit less stupid and it's down to nineteen. You know, an entire year older than what's the legal age to basically kill someone overseas.

Meanwhile in Quebec, probably the most insulted province in all of Canada, their drinking age is eighteen and their booze is cheaper. But I guess it comes to no surprise that the people doing anything right are the ones that are the most insulted. Afterall, people didn't seem too fond of Socrates.

So there, reason #1 - I personally think our priorities are just a bit fucked up when we're more worried about our kids drinking than handing them a gun and telling them to kill someone. 'for the greater good'

Secondly, isn't it just a bit hypocritical for us to tell them that drinking underaged is wrong? I bet that most of the people preaching to our youth not to drink underage are the exact same people that got high, got drunk, and had their dicks sucked back in high school. I mean, i wouldn't have so much of a problem if they were consistent, but they're not. If anyone should argue against underaged drinking it should be someone that never got high, never drank, and never did anything reckless during their high school years. You know, someone like me.

Seriously though, It's like a child molester telling people to keep their hands off our damn kids. If anyone is going to get on their moral high horse they should at least have the decency to be consistent with the morality they're riding on.

So there, that's my second beautiful argument in purple text - 2. Don't go preaching on what's right and wrong when you essentially did what's wrong in your own moral compass.

My third point is relevent to the opening statement -

Judging someone's responsibility, intellect, or ability through their age is a form of descrimination. Just because one kid gets behind a wheel and gets drunk that doesn't mean all of them do. And it also doesn't mean adults are exempt from doing stupid shit. Instead of completely illegalizing something for an entire age group (that'll get their hands on that illegal substance anyway) we should instead promote responsibility. When our government tries to do something they always screw it up, so maybe instead of asking a politician to fix a problem we should go to our schools to teach the dangers of the problem.

All politicians will do is simplify the problem and give us the illusion that it's easily fixed, meanwhile our teachers will give them the facts and more likely, the effects will be beneficial. Now I don't know about you, but I'm off to enjoy a drink or too from a unionized beer corporation. (A free cookie to whoever guesses!)

I completely disagree with this. I feel as though your argument is misinformed through simple science. Your brain finishes developing from a growth standpoint, around 21-22, and as everyone knows, alcohol may just be, say a killer of brain cells. I feel as though it's perfectly acceptable to judge someones intellect through age.

Have you ever heard of the saying "You haven't seen anything yet", there is immense logic behind that statement, you could have entire encyclopedias memorized, but without simple life experience, all that information is useless.

The point I'm trying to make is, Teenagers have NOT seen everything yet, and there have been rules put in place so that the impressionable minds don't get too easily swayed into choices that are very big, life gravitating choices.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 24 2011, 7:33 am by DevliN. Reason: No need to outright insult his intelligence.

Someone got grounded...

Can someone summarize this? I got lost in the rant and gave up reading half-way. I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but every time I see your posts/threads I lose interest the more I realize it is a big stream-of-consciousness rant. Its just hard to follow, and I think that's why people tend to have a difficult time following your logic in your arguments. Half of your post is unnecessary filler.

I think your idea of military training is a bit skewed. First and foremost the idea is supposed to be that the 18-year-old soldiers are taught responsibility and whatnot, not how to be killing machines. They are trusted with weapons when they are deemed responsible enough to use them. Its not like we're giving guns to kids and saying "have fun!" I agree that the drinking age should be lower, but I see no connection between the age of joining the military and legal drinking age as far as your argument goes.

I have no issue with underage drinking as long as the drinkers are responsible. I'm not a huge drinker, though, and never saw the fascination with getting shitfaced in high school.

As for the age thing, when I was a teenager I thought I was smarter than I really was. I feel like most teenagers are that way. A lot of them seem to think they've either got it all figured out, when really they don't. So on one hand I agree that assuming someone is an idiot based on age can be discrimination, but on the other hand its not like this generation's population of teenagers is doing much to help change that stereotype. Half the teens in this community aren't nearly as smart as they think they are, but they still flaunt their intellect as if they're brilliant.

How old are you, Shadow?

Shadow you have just gotten a reputation for text walls...

Well when i was a kid i drank a beer and it was nothing bad... nearing a fully fledged adult I've only really been hammered once and even this was not strong enough to give me a hangover.

Edit : I read most of the first part and than skimmed through it and i found that its basically ranting, most of these topics deserve both sides of the story which i always try to do.

Wow, something I agree with you about! The government shouldn't tell us when we can and can't drink, smoke, do drugs, etc. The government's job is not to be our moral centre; that's the job of religions and philosophies. Now, driving under the influence is a different story as they're government roads so they get to make the rules; same for the military. I'd say it's a good thing that large amounts of young aggressive men with easy access to weapons should not be allowed to drink.

In New Zealand, the age you can legally buy alcohol is 18. If you're younger than that but have an adult around (maybe it has to be a parent or guardian, I forget) then you are also allowed to drink. I've been allowed to drink small amounts of alcohol by my parents since I was about 12 or so, and now at 17 I daresay I could have as much as I want. Now, the law in NZ still isn't perfect but it's less morals-imposing than the US system.

Although then we get into whether or not a government can function properly without having SOME morals to enforce, e.g. Murder is bad, stealing is bad.

I'd venture to say that alcohol-related deaths and injuries are more common than any of the things you've listed under "military." I'm fairly certain that's why people are worried about underage drinking, because most of the time the kids who drink are irresponsible and could get hurt. The reason why I questioned the relevance is because the analogy doesn't quite work to me. A normal underage kid who stupidly decides to drink and drive is more dangerous than a normal 18-year-old soldier with a gun. When you start to list things like rape and throwing dogs off cliffs, those aren't things that the military led them to do, so they are invalid. That's more of an argument about the lack of standards the military has with the mental stability of recruits rather than anything to do with age.

I was just curious; I wasn't sure if you were coming from the standpoint of an underage drinker or not.

I think its funny that all my friends and acquaintances that had a stricter upbringing are now binge-drinking bar-hopping alcoholics. I think one major drawback to having the drinking age as we do is that the stigma of alcohol becomes so influential to a lot of people. I was raised the same way as you, and I have no problem drinking socially but I'd rather not go to bars nightly like a lot of my peers. I bet we'd be better off with a law similar to NZ's.

NZ has a terrible youth drinking culture, one of the worst in the world. Our drinking age used to be 21 but they put it down to 18.

Now they're talking about putting it up to 20-21 for off-licence purchases (liquor stores, supermarkets) but 18 for on-licence (bars, pubs, restaurants).

NZ has a terrible drinking culture, regardless of age. I should note that the drinking age has had little to no effect on the ability of some friends of mine who are 15 to get alcohol. If you removed the drinking age limit entirely then I doubt it'd get much worse, and probably would get better if anything.

It's legal to drink alcohol with parental consent within your own home at the age of 5.

It is only illegal to purchase alcohol if you're under the age of 18.

More deaths per year, worldwide, are caused through the consumption of alcohol than the combined death toll of all illegal narcotics.

Bill Hicks parodied this best; "Buy these drugs (alcohol), these are the 'good drugs', these are the drugs that our government wants you to buy... Don't buy these drugs (illegal substances), nooo, these are bad for you... We don't tax these drugs, don't buy them. They're illegal."

Quote from Jack

NZ has a terrible drinking culture, regardless of age. I should note that the drinking age has had little to no effect on the ability of some friends of mine who are 15 to get alcohol. If you removed the drinking age limit entirely then I doubt it'd get much worse, and probably would get better if anything.

Same's true here. For the most part, those that want the alcohol can get it, those that don't still can, but are mature/religious/whatever enough to not want it. The thing about binge drinking (which is what it almost exclusively becomes for underage drinking) is that you get the feeling "Oh, I've got to drink a lot while I can". That's why binge drinking is so bad.

From what I'm told, several countries in Europe, most notably Spain, either have no drinking age law or some ridiculous age like 12. Those countries have a far smaller problem than countries that have a much higher legal age, because it's not like some taboo that you're doing something that's a big . My cousin had to come home early because he got drunk off his ass in a $1,000+ trip to Spain in the first night. The problem was the relative availability of alcohol...he had access to far too much and he's not used to it. Looking at the situation, it seems almost as if our culture and legal system created the problem.

Alcohol isn't a huge problem until it becomes something that is "bad", once it becomes "good", if the person is too immature (and believe me, my cousin is despite being 3 years my elder), then it actually becomes bad. For example, it's somewhat common for alcohol poisoning to occur on the 21st birthday, when a person is legally able to drink. I've actually known a couple people that were hospitalized for it.

TL;DR: The problem is an individual's maturity and culture. To peg an age like 21 (or 18) as the time when it's alright to drink is idiotic, because I know people that were more mature at 15 than some people at 40. I know alcohol can wreak havoc on a developing mind, but it's available enough that attempts to restrict it are either nearly or completely counter-productive.

EDIT:
To respond to your topic's description, the easiest way to prevent any form of alcohol-related shenanigans is to simply be mature.

Quote

1. I'll be using my usual 'holier than thou' tone of voice. Because hey, how else can I try out to be the next Jesus?

So quickly you assume there was a first one.

EDIT2: Might as well throw out that I'm 20. Still illegal to drink at parties, but I got drunk New Year's eve. First and only time I've had a hangover, but thankfully didn't throw up at any party I've been to. I still vividly remember everything I did, except it took me half an hour after I woke up to remember I changed my clothes before bed. I woke up in different clothes than I had on the previous night, and I was kinda freaking out

The most immature ("outright stupid" is a better phrase, but meh) thing I did was refuse help walking downstairs when I was having problems walking on a flat surface. That clearly tells me the problem is not alcohol, but the people that use/abuse it.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 24 2011, 1:28 pm by poison_us.

"NO DRINKING!"
"But officer, it's for religious reasons..."
"Oh, okay, carry on."

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In Europe:
*Age 7 kid drinks*
Officer: He's growing up so fast!

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In America:
*Age 7 kid drinks*
Officer: *Stares at parents* What kind of sick people are you? *Arrests them*

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I'm pretty sure it's not good to have anyone drinking and driving, but I guess they are assuming that it is more likely to occur amongst younger less experienced drivers. The problem here doesn't lie within the alcohol, or the driving individually, but when both of them are combined.
What's the simlest solution to underaged drinking and driving?
Ban one of them. Obviously you can't ban driving... that would be pretty stupid, so they banned the alcohol.

They are also looking at statistics and trying to fix problems based on the assumption that alcohol and alcoholism hurts people.
Alcohol is a toxic substance. It's in the word inTOXICation.
It's quite apparently addictive. (Hopefully we can all agree on this one)
I remember hearing somewhere that most alcoholics began drinking when they were teenagers.

That said, it isn't really the governments place to tell other people what they should and shouldn't drink, smoke, or whatever. I personally don't really care either way, because I don't plan on doing either of these unless I'm within the legal parameters. I hope for a future where the law doesn't have to bar people from drinking, because they've been educated, and don't abuse it like they do nowadays.

I must admit that I was trolling a tad in my previous post. I love my dearest Shadow a lot. However, when it comes to the subject of Teenagers, (I am a Teenager Adult, I am 18) I agree whole-heartedly with the laws of America.

Teengers ARE dumb. I am dumb, every teenager is not smart, it's a fact. I've seen myself squander a-many things, and most laws are put in place to not royally fuck people over. That being said, I have a general disagreement with alcohol in general, considering that in recent times everyone has been abusing every substance they can get (Paint, anyone?).

Now, 21, is a great suggestion for drinking, scientifically. In a perfect world we wouldn't need mind ruiners like alcohol, but hey it makes you feel good so why not, we aren't perfect. However, the one thing that I do very much disagree with is, little Age 16 Timmy, can drink himself literally to death, and his family can weep and mourn, but if he tried to smoke a little tiny bit of marijuana, he gets thrown in the big house. It's a cruel world folks.

Ad hominem is not a valid argument. Claiming that someone's argument is wrong based on who they are is bad reasoning.

The rest of your post is rife with logical errors. I cringed.

ANYONE can do stupid stuff while drunk. Can get alcohol poisoning. Can get a dui, or their license taken, or become an alcoholic. Personally I try to stay away from the people who drink alcohol dangerously. I rarely drink myself. I had alcohol for the first time when I was 18, but I've never done the parties thing. Usually now when I drink it'll be because I'm at a microbrewery (which you really can't avoid in CO) and I'll have one or two beers because I want to try them out. It is a lot of fun I think. That said I've never understood the whole party thing, where people go and get hammered on crap like Blue Ribbon, and as such I don't really understand the real issue with responsible underage drinking. Its when people black out and act stupid where I draw the line. It all depends on who you hang out with, I guess.

While I agree that there are really no moral problems with underage drinking, there are major practical problems. I personally had 2 underages, but I don't hold it against the government (I'm not saying it didn't suck anyway) because I know the reasons for the law; mainly two reasons. One, it severely reduced DUI-related deaths. Two, it keeps alcohol out of high schools. Kids in high school are not legal adults -- therefore they should not be consuming mind altering drugs of their own choice yet. I think there could be a "parental supervision" clause, but aside from that, American teenagers are not nearly responsible enough to handle drinking. Hell, a lot of adults aren't either, but since they're of age, that's their own damn problem, let them get alcohol poisoning and die if they want to. However, I'm currently in favor of the 21-year limit currently because our culture is not capable of supporting an 18-year drinking age without an increase in alcohol-related deaths.

In response to european countries; our legal system did not create the problem, the age limit was raised to 21 because there already was a problem. Our culture and cultures that exist in places like Spain or Germany are very different; ours does not teach young people how to handle things in moderation.

Edit: **Kids 18 and under can't vote, can't drink, can't smoke, can't buy porn, can't join the military; they're not real people. So don't give me any crap about "DURR I'M 17 AND I KNOW HOW TO NOT DIE DRINKING, I POUND LIKE A HANDLE A NIGHT AND SMOKE LIKE TWO PACKS A DAY AN NOTHIN BAD EVER HAPPENS AND STUFF" Too bad, we have to draw the line somewhere, and 18 is the line.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 25 2011, 1:20 am by Vrael.

Because of the few, the many must suffer.