Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 UMS Mapmaking Assistance > Topic: DDS Direct Damage System
DDS Direct Damage System
Jun 2 2011, 5:05 am
By: m.0.n.3.y  

Jun 2 2011, 5:05 am m.0.n.3.y Post #1



So I read this article http://www.staredit.net/?p=oldwiki&s=116 about DDS, but I'm still a little confused. I was hoping someone could take the time to explain DDS to me or make/provide a quick test map so I can see how the triggers are formed. Thanks guys!

***Random question: If you have a spider mine placed near a unit, and the mine is blown up by a scarab, does the mine still cause damage to the unit?



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Jun 2 2011, 5:11 am Wormer Post #2



I have this test map lying in my archive: http://www.mediafire.com/?ux27m7973xf2fu6.

***Random answer: Since when mine death causes damage? I guess the mine won't damage anything.



Some.

Jun 2 2011, 5:20 am Lanthanide Post #3



That article is overly confusing, and also outdated. You don't need to worry about having a storage area, or where you place it on the map etc.

All you need:
  • A location that sits between a reaver that has scarabs, and a unit/target that is an enemy of that reaver. Note that the reaver should not be inside this location, because 'bring' will detect scarabs inside the reaver that it hasn't shot yet, and we only want to detect mobile/moving scarabs. Buildings or mineral chunks work well as targets for the reaver, but any standard ground unit that the reaver will automatically try to attack will work.
  • A target location, for where you want your scarab to explode and deal damage.
  • A location over unwalkable terrain - easiest is just to use water tiles for this

Run a trigger to replenish the reaver with scarabs (add 1 to hangar capacity) whenever you want a new shot, eg when player has cast a spell, or whatever your condition is. The reaver will automatically shoot the scarab at the target/enemy. When the scarab enters the scarab location (#1), you have a trigger like this:
Cond: [Player] bring 1 scarab to [scarab location]
Action: Move 1 scarab at [scarab location] to [scarab target]
Move 1 scarab at [scarab target] to [unwalkable location]

This is a far superior version to the one in the old wiki. It turns out that if you use a Move action on a scarab that is moving, and attempt to move it to an unwalkable location, it will not move and instead will explode instantly, dealing damage to all enemy units around it. This system essentially has three steps:
1. Get the reaver to shoot at an enemy
2. Move the mobile scarab to your target destination
3. Cause the scarab to explode (at your target) by attempting to 'move' it to an unwalkable location


Note that scarab damage upgrades work like other upgrades, in that they can transfer between players. You can also have up to 255 of them researchable by the player in-game. This means you can ramp up the damage of your DDS system over time.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 2 2011, 5:25 am by Lanthanide.



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Jun 2 2011, 5:46 am Vrael Post #4



One key feature of DDS was its ability to deal damage in increments without being detected, as in you never see the scarab exploding. I don't think the unwalkable tile method accomodates for that, you had to use some AI script in order to deal the damage without the explosion.



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Jun 2 2011, 5:53 am Lanthanide Post #5



Yes, the unwalkable terrain method will result in the explosion animation being shown. If the 'traditional' method can create damage without explosions, that might be more useful for your purposes.



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Jun 2 2011, 6:30 am m.0.n.3.y Post #6



Quote from Wormer
I have this test map lying in my archive: http://www.mediafire.com/?ux27m7973xf2fu6.

***Random answer: Since when mine death causes damage? I guess the mine won't damage anything.
Thanks, i'll take a look at that tomorrow

Quote from Lanthanide
Note that scarab damage upgrades work like other upgrades, in that they can transfer between players. You can also have up to 255 of them researchable by the player in-game. This means you can ramp up the damage of your DDS system over time.
So, is it only possible to increase the damage of the DDS by having a human manually upgrade their attack, or is there a way to use triggers to add/subtract unit upgrades?

Quote from Lanthanide
Yes, the unwalkable terrain method will result in the explosion animation being shown. If the 'traditional' method can create damage without explosions, that might be more useful for your purposes.
So then, how exactly do you do the 'traditional method'? The same way ish?


Also, if I want to say use one scarab for one specific trigger, but like 5 of them for another, should i use 5 reavers or will 1 be able to pump out 5 scarabs fast enough? I'm guessing i should use 5 reavers.



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Jun 2 2011, 8:02 am NudeRaider Post #7

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from m.0.n.3.y
So, is it only possible to increase the damage of the DDS by having a human manually upgrade their attack?
yes




Jun 2 2011, 8:17 am Lanthanide Post #8



Quote from m.0.n.3.y
So, is it only possible to increase the damage of the DDS by having a human manually upgrade their attack, or is there a way to use triggers to add/subtract unit upgrades?
Yes. You'll need to have a human doing the upgrades, somewhere. Note that the reavers could be owned by a CPU player, say P2, and each time the human player, say P1, buys an upgrade, if you then 'give' a reaver from P1 to P2, P2 will now have that same upgrade.

Quote
So then, how exactly do you do the 'traditional method'? The same way ish?
No idea, never done it. The 'traditional' method is the one explained on that wiki post, and possibly in wormer's map. I have done the unwalkable terrain version myself, and never had any problem with it.

Quote
Also, if I want to say use one scarab for one specific trigger, but like 5 of them for another, should i use 5 reavers or will 1 be able to pump out 5 scarabs fast enough? I'm guessing i should use 5 reavers.
You'll want to use 5 reavers. You can set your location and reaver target up in such a way that you only need to use 1 location to catch all the scarabs, though. You'll probably need more locations for either creating & destroying the reavers (if they're owned by the human player, you don't want them to fiddle with the reavers), or locations for adding scarabs to only 1 or a subset of the reavers at a time.



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Jun 2 2011, 11:18 pm m.0.n.3.y Post #9



So, my main problem seems to be getting the reavers to actually attack first off. I don't want the reavers to be owned by a player, because i dont want them to constantly get vision of them. I want computer reavers to attack and then use their scarabs. Help me out here, Lanthanide, what's wrong?
Look at my last post for attachment :)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 3 2011, 2:14 am by m.0.n.3.y.



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Jun 3 2011, 12:34 am Raitaki Post #10



1) You need to make an enclosed location with enough space to where you will move the scarabs to, and from where you will take the scarabs from. That way you can use a lot of scarabs at the same time.
2) To speed up scarab production, use triggers to rapidly place and remove reavers armed with scarabs, instead of making 3 sitting around and shoot.
3) The units the reavers fire scarabs at should be a little bit further away to ensure the scarabs are moved before detonating, and should have 9999 HP and are constantly healed. The marines in your map are only good for 1 shot each.
4) I'm not sure if the DDS works when you move scarabs onto Null terrain, since Null is still walkable if you use a transport unit to drop a unit on top of it...Not sure if the same holds true for the Move Unit trigger tho.



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Jun 3 2011, 1:33 am m.0.n.3.y Post #11



Quote from Raitaki
1) You need to make an enclosed location with enough space to where you will move the scarabs to, and from where you will take the scarabs from. That way you can use a lot of scarabs at the same time.
2) To speed up scarab production, use triggers to rapidly place and remove reavers armed with scarabs, instead of making 3 sitting around and shoot.
3) The units the reavers fire scarabs at should be a little bit further away to ensure the scarabs are moved before detonating, and should have 9999 HP and are constantly healed. The marines in your map are only good for 1 shot each.
4) I'm not sure if the DDS works when you move scarabs onto Null terrain, since Null is still walkable if you use a transport unit to drop a unit on top of it...Not sure if the same holds true for the Move Unit trigger tho.

Lanthanide said i didn't need a storage location for the scarbs
And anyways, the first problem is that the reavers wont even attack!!



None.

Jun 3 2011, 1:38 am Raitaki Post #12



Quote from m.0.n.3.y
Quote from Raitaki
1) You need to make an enclosed location with enough space to where you will move the scarabs to, and from where you will take the scarabs from. That way you can use a lot of scarabs at the same time.
2) To speed up scarab production, use triggers to rapidly place and remove reavers armed with scarabs, instead of making 3 sitting around and shoot.
3) The units the reavers fire scarabs at should be a little bit further away to ensure the scarabs are moved before detonating, and should have 9999 HP and are constantly healed. The marines in your map are only good for 1 shot each.
4) I'm not sure if the DDS works when you move scarabs onto Null terrain, since Null is still walkable if you use a transport unit to drop a unit on top of it...Not sure if the same holds true for the Move Unit trigger tho.

Lanthanide said i didn't need a storage location for the scarbs
And anyways, the first problem is that the reavers wont even attack!!
Oh, about that...if you don't use a storage location, you should use the place/remove trick I mentioned above. And remove the Issue Order action. Constantly telling units to do something that's not moving invariably screws them up. Your reavers will still shoot the marines w/o you ordering them.



None.

Jun 3 2011, 1:54 am m.0.n.3.y Post #13



Quote from Raitaki
Quote from m.0.n.3.y
Quote from Raitaki
1) You need to make an enclosed location with enough space to where you will move the scarabs to, and from where you will take the scarabs from. That way you can use a lot of scarabs at the same time.
2) To speed up scarab production, use triggers to rapidly place and remove reavers armed with scarabs, instead of making 3 sitting around and shoot.
3) The units the reavers fire scarabs at should be a little bit further away to ensure the scarabs are moved before detonating, and should have 9999 HP and are constantly healed. The marines in your map are only good for 1 shot each.
4) I'm not sure if the DDS works when you move scarabs onto Null terrain, since Null is still walkable if you use a transport unit to drop a unit on top of it...Not sure if the same holds true for the Move Unit trigger tho.

Lanthanide said i didn't need a storage location for the scarbs
And anyways, the first problem is that the reavers wont even attack!!
Oh, about that...if you don't use a storage location, you should use the place/remove trick I mentioned above. And remove the Issue Order action. Constantly telling units to do something that's not moving invariably screws them up. Your reavers will still shoot the marines w/o you ordering them.

Alright thanks dude, so I kind of got it to work, but it's really iffy on the reaver replacement system, take a took. So I think I need to figure out how to center the location on the reavers and replace them systematically, what do you think about it?

Attachments:
DirectDamageTry.scm
Hits: 1 Size: 54.57kb



None.

Jun 3 2011, 2:08 am TiKels Post #14



Do "bring 1 scarab to location" "center location on protoss scarab owned by player X" and then remove the reaver and make another with a scarab in its bay (only one) at that same spot. If you're good you can make a functioning DDS system with only 2 locations (I think that was my best?). Make sure you copy the trigger for the amount of reavers you have so that if 10 reavers fire on the same trigger loop they all get moved.

Obviously I skipped some important details in my trigger that I said (such as where to make the reaver, moving the scarab, etc)



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Jun 3 2011, 2:37 am Raitaki Post #15



Done!
Note: Only the player that owns the reavers receive kills and kill score for units killed by the DDS. I think I've seen somewhere a DDS that neither splashes nor show the scarab explosion...But I don't know how to do that :(

Sorry it took so long to reply, my dad making me do his college work AGAIN T_T;

Attachments:
DirectDamageSystem.scm
Hits: 1 Size: 54.64kb



None.

Jun 3 2011, 2:49 am TiKels Post #16



There are multiple methods for achieving the DDS effect. Removing explosion only works with the old style (not move to terrain). In terms of splash effect? I KNOW I've done this but it seems it has been too long for me to even remember.



"If a topic that clearly interest noone needs to be closed to underline the "we don't want this here" message, is up to debate."

-NudeRaider

Jun 3 2011, 3:55 am m.0.n.3.y Post #17



Quote from Raitaki
Done!
Note: Only the player that owns the reavers receive kills and kill score for units killed by the DDS. I think I've seen somewhere a DDS that neither splashes nor show the scarab explosion...But I don't know how to do that :(

Sorry it took so long to reply, my dad making me do his college work AGAIN T_T;
Hey thanks dude! Helped me a lot!

Quote from TiKels
There are multiple methods for achieving the DDS effect. Removing explosion only works with the old style (not move to terrain). In terms of splash effect? I KNOW I've done this but it seems it has been too long for me to even remember.
Could you possibly make an example map where the explosion does not happen? And also, I really, really need to know how to do the system where no splash damage occurs! So if you could somehow remember how that works that would be the greatest thing in the world lol.

Question: Is it possible to switch between the system that causes splash and the system that does NOT cause splash in the same map, while using the same set of 6 reavers?

EDIT:
Question #2:
Quote from Raitaki
Done!
Note: Only the player that owns the reavers receive kills and kill score for units killed by the DDS.
What if when you moved the scarabs to the dark swarm location, you gave the scarabs to the current player before moving them to the null terrain? Then wouldn't the human player get the kills/score?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 3 2011, 4:43 am by m.0.n.3.y.



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