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Map is available on EU and US. Find other players in sc2 chat channel notdso
Possible players 1-10. Recommended players 6.

Last time I played this during Map Night, everyone was kinda bored because the units move SO SLOW!
I think greatly improving their speed would really help on increasing the replay value.

Looks really well done!

I haven't played this yet, so I won't comment, but I'll give this a try

Anyway... some competition with the other NOTD ?? or is this an improved version lol

We are not related to the other notd project. We have limited contact with them, and respect for each other, other then that each team goes its own path.

Regarding the move speed issue, it is something several new ppl complain about. Only thing I can say is that it gets better in time as you get ranks and medals and acclimatize yourself with the pace of the game. The reason the move speed is slower then other games is that there is a carefully balanced speed ratio between marines and enemies. If we give marines more speed then we would have to boost zombies also, which is problematic in late game when fast zombies come in large numbers. We want the map to be hard, but not impossible

Would definitely play it more, but I think the learning curve is too high. Played with a few guys who were apparently really good, Captains and high-ranked Sergeants, but felt completely useless as it was constantly, "no, keep up, stop firing." then "wtf, shoot dude, shoot!"

Seems that the game is too aimed at a selected audience and not entirely open to people who just want to have fun.

From some of my friends who play it a lot, it is fairly niche. I think it's the sort of thing I'd be able to really get into but there's a bit of a learning curve, and it isn't for casuals as much.

Indeed the learning curve is steep and the game is punishing. There is a game mode called Bootcamp that can help newbies out somewhat, get them familiar with buttons and core functionalities (game mode can be chosen by host, before ship lands). After death you can play a trivia game with related subjects, that can help you learn some of the abbreviations used in game. Other then that, best way to learn is simply playing with some veteran folks (visit the chat channel to find them). But there needs to be a good amount of persistance on the part of the player also (such as not being put off by setbacks such as early death). At the end of the day, you either like something challenging and get hooked on it, or you don`t.

My only problem with this map is indeed the fact that you move WAAAAY to slow. When you leave your team once and two gargs are capable of destroying you even though you have some really badass gear is kinda...meh

I actually prefer the speed and the difficulty isnt too hard, it's just that friendly fire is annoying as hell and it's too "fast paced" for the rate of speed you are given. It's a constant checkpoint rush.

Im just too used to NOTD: AM then, where if youre good with your equipment you can survive anything.

Hey Mal,

So I've had several chances to play this game now, and let me tell you first..
don't take any of this personally

(Also, since I believe you're somewhat new to SEN, we're very critical about maps here, but it's all in order to help mappers bring out their best. Moreover, we wouldn't even comment if we didn't care or see potential in your map)
it is also true that I have not once met a mapper that was not stubborn about his game design... so, knowing our 99% chance of failure, you should be glad that we're still spending time to make suggestions about your map =)

Anyway

First of all, everyone's comment here is right.
Movement speed IS slower than what players would expect.
Also, the learning curve is extremely high and 90% of the players will give up and do something else.

The reason why Movement speed should be faster is because it allows the players to be able to position themselves better, and allow a higher margin of error for the player to escape. Secondly, it is just more exciting and fun to be racing around trying to dodge zombies (which would also be faster).

I sort of understand why you'd made movement speed so slow. For one thing, it forces teamwork, as it is pretty hard to run around killing zombies by yourself and then escape back into the protection of your group. But this is poor design, as there are numerous other ways to make players feel like they need to stay together that can be more fun and even more challenging.

Take Left 4 Dead for example. The reason why the survivors get incapacitated every time they die, they get jumped on, or even when they get latched onto by a long tongue (bleh) is b/c it forces players to stay together. Basically, they'll die or lose a ton of HP if their teammates are not immediately around. The reason why this is better is b/c it is more thrilling and scary to be incapacitated than simply being handicapped to walk slow the entire game.

Of course, there're other ways you can do this, such as giving heroes abilities that work best when players are close together.

---

The other big problem is the "learning curve"
Probably one of the most fundamental things that a lot of mappers forget is the old saying "Easy to Learn, but Hard to Master".
Fortunately, I don't need to type this out, as a Game Designer that I hold a lot of admiration to has made a video about this!

Watch this!! I can't embed this video :C -- http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2921-Tutorials-101

You're probably thinking "Well there's Bootcamp mode". But that's hardly a good excuse. Most players don't Want to sit through a more newbie mode of a game unless they are really motivated to play the game. Moreover, tutorials should integrate as part of the game, and having a mode that detaches from the game and the map's experience just isn't the best way to do this.

I'll also mention that the written tutorial is measly at best, and that "bootcamp" usually means "hardcore" mode.

To keep this short, I'm going to end this before it start becoming too text laden.
So, I'm going to quote from the video.
"...Humans are prone to snap judgements about their entertainment. If you can't grab the player in the first 10 minutes of play, you're going to lose a large part of your audience..."

I agree with your points and the video also, however ...
Text and visual indicators are pretty much the only way to present a tutorial ( I honestly don`t see anyone making even small tutorial videos/voiced text, when the size limitations are what they are). I`ve tried to my best to present the bootcamp in sections, each having relevant example for the information presented in text. Its a separate mode because its a multiplayer environment, all of the games that present nice tutorials as the game progresses have the leisure of singleplayer, where one player has all of the comfort of learning at his own pace.

Of course I would like to have a better tutorial, that unravels as the game progresses, it just doesnt seem possible to me at least, so far I have not seen a game that explains mechanics in a multiplayer environment - well except for MMO`s I guess (to which we can`t compare as the pace of the game is just ... lightspeed, compared to an MMO). Limited bits of information, such as in L4D ammunitions or medkits get highlighted telling you how to pick them up - exist here also, clicking explosives/items/enemies while the player has less then 10 plays will give him small relevant text.

By its nature the map can`t appeal to a broad audience, its targeted at hardcore players, those that enjoy the challenge and don`t back down when presented with setbacks (such as early death). The aim was never to make it one of the most popular maps, but one that can generate a small community of elite troopers
However that doesnt mean that we dont like new players, I myself play many games trying to lead newbies to victory, and some of them stick for a second game even after dying a horrible death after 15 minutes. Those are the players that we are counting on. I don`t think the casual player will ever find this map enjoyable, simply because its too hard, team-oriented and generally complex, no matter how many tutorials you throw at him. The casual player likes games where you dont have many buttons

Also if I give the impression of being stubborn I apologize, I do appreciate feedback I receive.

In fact, you are one of the few that take UnholyUrine's criticism in regards to Gaming Design on a non-offensive way, which is the right way to go.

Meh, I knew it...

Oh well.. what pains me is the amt of details and polish you gave the game, but it will never be well known or enjoyed by most people just because you latched onto your design choice.


I completely disagree
There are plenty of ways to integrate a tutorial into a multiplayer game.

Here I'm just going to list a few off the top of my head.
- For example, you can start people off @ a more enclosed area that favours the players dramatically.. like start them off @ a higher elevation. Or, you can give them a place to heal @ the beginning of the game.
- A popular way to start survival game is to start the heroes in a relatively safe place with some sort(s) of barricade that will eventually be destroyed, making the area much less advantageous and force players to explore.
- Since your map is done through Quests, you can design the first quest to start off with zero, or VERY few enemies, and let players come into grips with their abilities and stuff. Not only would this dramatically increase the atmosphere of the game (depending on how you execute it), it will also dramatically increase a player's "staying time". I mean, once I've learned how to play something, I want to stay on it and figure it out. Hardcore players can easily breeze through this quests (or even skip it), but it can allow newbies to figure things out before the game start. If you're good enough in designing this, you can easily make this "tutorial quest" seem like a real quest and part of the game.
- Abilities can also be introduced in a staggered way so that players don't have to wrestle with all the decisions @ the start of the map.
- Enemies can (and Should) also be introduced in the same manner.

I believe the reason you think this way is, again, because of your design choice. Aka, your "Only hardcore players allowed" thing. It almost seem like you're being lazy and ignoring it, and excuse urself by saying your map's only for "hardcore" players.
It really makes no sense. Most players aren't going to go "hardcore" on a new map they've never played before. They'll just ignore your map unless you entertain them and draw them in. THEN you can start whopping their asses.

@L4D Example
If you've played through L4D and really observed it, you'd notice that the first segment of the game for each campaign is always considerably easier (except for the DLC campaigns, which they assume you'd only DL'd after you've played the game a lot).
Not only that, special effects/situational stuffs never ever happen in the first segment.
What I mean is, for example, in the Hard Rain campaign, the First segment is completely dry, no rain. But after that, the rain falls down, and your vision becomes impaired. This is basic stuff. The game allows the players to get used to the game first, before hitting them hard.
Moreover, the AI director in L4D is a subtle beast, and is a big factor in L4D's success.
Notice how it'd never send you hordes/special infesteds/tanks in the beginning. Tanks especially are designed to come out @ certain times/situations.
I mean, I can go on typing bout the AI director in L4D, but bottom line is, it was thought out very carefully and designed very well. And you can't tell me L4D don't have "hardcore" players.

@Payne
This is one of the few instances when I spent more time in my criticism in order to make it more positive.
Not that it made any difference :C

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Apr 16 2011, 7:13 am by UnholyUrine.

All right, most of those ideas seem doable. I will likely add them to the 2nd part of the map (an "expansion" if you will), which will be a bit more linear/cinematic as opposed to the freestyle of current one. The way I designed the story initially was to tell it in 3 separate maps, each taking the team through a different location.

Just letting you know that your feedback does not fall on deaf ears and will experiment with your suggestions in the future. It will prove at the least an interesting experiment

Thanks,

Just validating that my views are important makes me glad

In the end, it's still your game, so you get to do w/e u want with it...

EDIT: Btw, who'd u get to design you all those ability Icons?

I did them myself, I have limited skill with photoshop. Most of them (the ones that are "militariesque" such as guns and bombs) I took from google images and gave them a small edit. I am by no means a professional photoshopper

Hire me! I cost only 1000$/minute. :3

Found another video (by Daniel Floyd again) that speaks on the problem(s) I see w/ your approach on this map

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2454-Easy-Games