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The inmates won't be shooting each other, they'll be shooting their innocent commanding officers.

Quote from ClansAreForGays

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The inmates won't be shooting each other, they'll be shooting their innocent commanding officers.

Throw them in combat then. See if they shoot the commanding officers, who aren't shooting them, while they get shot at by their enemy.

They put a little ditch in front of you when you learn grenades. At least, they used to. When my dad was in the ANG, a young man turned to his commanding officer, pulled the pin and said, "you and I, right captain?" the officer took his hand and forced it into the little ditch.

Another time, my dad told me a guy went apeshit and open fired on the base he was at using heavy artillery. He was quickly subdued.

Long story short? You're making a lot of assumptions on human behavior. Some people just don't care.

Quote from Fire_Kame

They put a little ditch in front of you when you learn grenades. At least, they used to. When my dad was in the ANG, a young man turned to his commanding officer, pulled the pin and said, "you and I, right captain?" the officer took his hand and forced it into the little ditch.

What's the significance of the little ditch?

Quote from Fire_Kame

Another time, my dad told me a guy went apeshit and open fired on the base he was at using heavy artillery. He was quickly subdued.

Quote from Fire_Kame

Long story short? You're making a lot of assumptions on human behavior. Some people just don't care.

First, wasn't a long story to begin with. Second, sounds like non-criminals can do as much harm as criminals. I still fail to see a reason why we aren't doing this.

... Because most prisoners didn't do anything that would justify what is essentially a death sentence, and those that did aren't trustworthy?

You put the hand in the hole so that it blows up the guy's hand and doesn't hurt anyone else

Scenario A: They choose to make the best of their forced conscription and fight for their country to find redemption
Scenario B: They get the guns and turn on each other
Scenario C: They get revenge on their captors- their commanding officers- they are now free
Scenario D: They desert, and oh cool, get free guns to start out their new life of freedom
Scenario F: They defect, sell secrets, information and gunpower to the enemy to get revenge on the country that sentenced them to die

Somehow I find scenario A the least likely of all of them.

First, she never told you the long story, which would've just been more stories. Second, sure non-criminals can do just as much harm as criminals, but this is historically infrequent. Trying to force the people you've locked up for countless years and face deathrow to fight for you? Asinine.

Quote from Kaias

Quote from poison_us

Quote from name:private_parts

That said, I do recognize the problem with too many people not going to wars that ARE fairly worthy causes (eg. WW2) due to cowardice. However, I have not yet thought of a solution. Though I still strongly believe that conscription is NOT that solution.

Send the people with life sentences. Clears up our jails, and they aren't productive anyways.

Scenario A: They choose to make the best of their forced conscription and fight for their country to find redemption
Scenario B: They get the guns and turn on each other
Scenario C: They get revenge on their captors- their commanding officers- they are now free
Scenario D: They desert, and oh cool, get free guns to start out their new life of freedom
Scenario F: They defect, sell secrets, information and gunpower to the enemy to get revenge on the country that sentenced them to die

Somehow I find scenario A the least likely of all of them.

A is best case, I agree. B probably isn't going to happen, because they ALL have guns. Ever hear of the gang war that got resolved by giving both sides guns? I know I mentioned it earlier C is equally unlikely; what CO would want to place himself on the frontlines with privates that will never get out? D is actually good, depending on where they desert. Train them in a prison-like military base, and they wont get out. If they desert in another country, all the better for USA. F is impossible. The fuck would you give a convict "secrets" and "information" for? You crazy.

B. You suggested this, I agree it's unlikely
C. How is C unlikely? Somehow you manage to get the convicts from prison/training to the battlefield without there being some point where they can commandeer the situation? How about the plane/boat/helicopter ride over? You sound like you intend for them to train these inmates, give them a gun and drop them in a hot zone as disposable meat, not to be reused and effectively abandoned.

What's the point? If you want to reuse them you're going to have to recapture them (which you've just armed). If you want to just drop them in a situation to fend for themselves and hopefully shoot some enemies before they die, whats the point? You can't rely on them to do anything, you can't reacquire them because they are unlikely to not fight back if you try and they accomplish no goals because you don't have any CO's with them and they aren't likely to listen anyway; and since they aren't reliable you have to put the calvary in place in case they fail that you would've if they weren't there at all. When you deploy infantry its to carry out a mission- this won't help any conceivable mission except perhaps as a distraction.
D. So you're liberating occupied France or ostensibly attempting to overthrow the Sadam Hussein and stabilize the region and you drop off a bunch of psycopaths with guns. They desert, run wild and all you've done is wasted equipment and money training meat and only worsened the situation.
F. Not only not impossible but probable. You seriously underestimate what information can be useful, from base locations, the type of equipment the US is employing to sabotaging any mission they were just set on. Its impossible to completely obscure them from seeing/hearing/knowing anything helpful.

This isn't to mention that unleashing rapists and serial killers with guns on any region would make you a war criminal.

This idea is exactly like Starcraft Marines lol. They solved the solution to this 'unreliability' problem: mental conditioning.

With the ongoing advances in neurobiology, it wouldn't surprise me if something like that becomes possible in the near future.

I think the biggest problem is that using criminals only would make small armies. At best you would supplement them to an already existing force. You are also assuming that all criminals are proficient with weaponry, combat, military life-style, etc. Remember people go to jail for all sorts of things.

ETA: I've thought of a solution to the criminal reliability problem. You can parachute them deep into enemy territory, the criminals only. That way they have to fight to survive. Not really moral I know, but best I could think of. Also you could do things like Tychus Finlay like booby trap them so if they go rogue you just set off a chip that stops their heart or something. But really if they get parachuted deep into enemy lines wearing your countries uniform they know they have got to fight to survive. Really all you would be using them for is cannon fodder + distraction. They would be causing havoc all over the enemy lines while you wouldn't care whether they lived or died. If they try to defect - set off the chip.

Also another method would be like the Reapers from SC. They have to survive like X battles or whatever and then they win their freedom. Or better living conditions in their prison. Some sort of incentive, so they know they don't have a chance in hell. They will be more effective if they have hope.

Post has been edited 5 time(s), last time on Jan 22 2011, 9:12 pm by private_parts.

Using criminals only is another strategic bottleneck - you might have 3000 men ready for infantry and yet you need 200 in logistics.

There's no such thing as 100% successful mental conditioning

You parachute them and they can either fight, die, or defect. And you're not saying who they can and cannot fight - who's to stop them from shooting up a school for the hell of it? I would never trust people fighting against their will in enemy territory alone. And you're right - entirely immoral.

Don't you love it when: 1) making a challenge post, 2) see the response as having no thought put into it, making you care a little less about humanity, 3) only to return later feeling vindicated by reading the overwhelming support for your argument.

Give up the ghost, Poison.

Why? Because the prisoner-to-soldier system would clear up more problems than it creates, if they can be trusted? CAFG, I wasn't giving up, just not checking the SD forum. It's really uncommon for me to be posting here. But back to the subject: The prisoner system could work, if they can be trained to kill the right people. Nobody would trust them with military secrets anyways, and it's not like they'd have a great chance of escaping if the military base has the right kind of security. Dropping them into a warzone, preferably behind enemy lines, with orange camo, and they're almost certain to die. If they don't then the next fight will solve that little dilemma. And yes, we could offer them freedom after surviving X battles, but word the contract so that it's nearly impossible to get out of the frontlines. How many people honestly read the Terms & Conditions of anything?

A strategic bottleneck? You're unfamiliar with the Zerg melee style, aren't you?

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I was saying that I didn't have to return here and defend my argument, because everyone else already did, because it's common sense. I was clearly the absent one, not you. You remain still trying to prove an unprovable point.

SC isn't real life. You're not going to. Spend training on those that want to fight.
Yes because that's where they're fighting /sarcasm
SC isn't real life, you can't just warp them in. You're going to have to endanger some innocent getting them there. Waste of fucking supplies too. Guns and ammo aren't cheap, you're basically just giving them away to the enemy.
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...What? I read the terms and conditions on everything. Its a legal document.

Anyways, I know the prisoner system is impossible, for now. I do believe it would be a good solution, if we could somehow stop people from doing illegal things (though then there would be no criminals, would there?), but the risks of placing a troop of criminals in a foreign land to fight are too high for little reward. It's just an alternative that one day may be possible, rather than reinstating a draft.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 26 2011, 7:55 pm by DevliN. Reason: Deleted "trolling" part.

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Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 15 2018, 9:47 pm by DavidJCobb. Reason: bad takes, ahoy!

In Starcraft, they had mental conditioning. Prisoners were mentally reconditioned to have a completely different past, a complete military training, and the condition to follow orders. Then they were sent to their deaths.

The whole rape thing shouldn't be used to force women out of combat if they want to. But women should be made aware that they have got more on the line then just their lives.

But as I've already said, that's going backwards. Keep women out of the wars, now all we have to do is get men out as well!

Mental conditioning; have fun pouring money into something unreliable and that will most certainly be outlawed in every democratic or half-ethical country.