Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Custom Maps > Topic: The Star Striker
The Star Striker
Jan 12 2011, 9:47 am
By: Decency
Pages: < 1 2 3 4 >
 

Mar 7 2011, 9:25 am Decency Post #41



Alright, so we played a ton tonight, probably a dozen 4v4 and 5v5 games, and I felt like doing this just to put my thoughts down and put off work. I rated all of the units on three different attributes that make a game good: balance, fun factor, and difficulty. Ideally I'd say a hero should be at about a 7 for relative power, for now. As the game gets more balanced the scale necessarily shifts. Anything above that needs a nerf, maybe only a slight one, and anything under that needs a buff. Design and skill intensiveness should be as high as possible. Every hero doesn't have to have a cool concept or be hard to use, but that only adds to the game, for me.


Rated 1-9 : Relative Power | Design/Fun | Skill Intensiveness | Comments

Terran:
SCV.......: 5 | 8 | 7 | Overall a good hero, but weakest of the goalies. Should stay "fast" since he can be more offensive.
Marine....: 4 | 5 | 5 | Very plain, grenade is weak and there are just better units. Increase stim speed or a new second spell.
Marauder..: 7 | 9 | 9 | Probably the most perfect hero right now, though a bit slow for his midfielder/possession role.
Reaper....: 7 | 3 | 7 | Too reliant on just autoattacking with his great speed. Mines are terrible and rarely worth 25 mana.
Thor......: 7 | 8 | 8 | In a really good spot right now. I'd still rather see his speedup be a shorter but more effective burst.
Viking....: 6 | 6 | 7 | In a pretty unique midfielder role, but the unnecessary channel on the second skill hurts. Drop that.

Protoss:
Probe.....: 6 | 7 | 8 | In a pretty good place, the new goalie spell is great. I'd like to see pylon give more serious benefits.
Zealot....: 7 | 8 | 8 | Good design, as long as it stays unique to him. I like this guy a lot, he's just tough to play for most.
Stalker...: 8 | 7 | 6 | I'm slowly accepting phased blink, but it's weird to learn for newbies. I still don't like shields, though.
Sentry....: 7 | 9 | 9 | Another awesome hero, fun to use and tough to play but can be very effective when used right.
Immortal..: 8 | 8 | 7 | This guy could use an increase to the mana cost of his second ability, its uptime is just silly.
Archon....: 3 | 4 | 6 | A two nuke hero that is just too slow to do anything but sit back and defend, and has trouble clearing.

Zerg:
Drone.....: 9 | 4 | 4 | Too fast, burrow is by far the best spell in the game, and his guardian form is just weak design.
Queen.....: 1 | 2 | 2 | Probably the most in need of a complete remake, I can't think of a single way to help this unit.
Zergling..: 6 | 4 | 2 | Outrunning people isn't very exciting and his autoattack sucks. He's a newbie hero, that's about it.
Hydralisk.: 2 | 1 | 4 | Could maybe keep the slow if it's buffed, but the channeled nuke doesn't fit on this hero at all.
Roach.....: 8 | 9 | 8 | Simple and skill intensive hero, but speed boost lasts a bit too long for how dramatic it is. Pick one.
Ultralisk.: 6 | 6 | 7 | Feels like a weaker version of the Zealot that rams people. His skills could be a lot more unique.



Also, I said I'd write up some newbie tips for the briefing so I'm just making a note of that. I really would love to see a revamped version for the next patch, this can hopefully jump right to the top of the list with some of the new changes. The retention rate for new players is really high, it just gets boring because we're always playing with the same people and it's not like SC1 where people can host their own games after they like it the first time and be more experienced than everyone. Most people learning a game don't want to play with the map's best right away. Once they don't have to I don't see any way that this won't take off, it's already getting close to being superbly balanced with the exception of a few heroes.

tl;dr:
Nerf:
Roach, Immortal, Stalker slightly.
Drone heavily.

Buff:
SCV, Probe, Viking, Ultralisk slightly.
Marine, Archon moderately.
Queen, Hydralisk heavily.

Modify for better design:
Reaper, Zergling, Drone.

I have ideas for all of these except the Queen and I gave some of the simpler ones in comments above but I'd rather see your opinions first and then see if we're on the same page, rather than influencing you.

Sorry for the massive wall, hopefully putting all of this down helps.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 7 2011, 5:54 pm by FaZ-.



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Mar 9 2011, 5:54 am Chirus Post #42



I'm going to try to find ways to balance/redesign the Viking and Hydralisk damage abilities so that they no longer channel. This is the real crutch with them, more than anything else. Also, the duration of the Viking's stun is a balancing factor kept from the days when kicking range was about half it is now, and I've seen with similar duration factors (the Stalker) that they need to be updated to accompany the changes in the overarching gameplay.

I disagree with your sentiments about the Archon. You have to play him really different than most heroes (he's really good for locking down a few players). His nuke doesn't drain as much energy as similar abilities (33 at the max) and can be an instant kill if used right. And, personally, I just love the way his abilities look & work too much to really change them.

The marine IS very plain, but then again, he's the very first unit I ever made, and he really hasn't changed much at all since release. The fact that he feels weaker and plain now is a sign to me that the game has developed beyond the initial gameplay, and units in general have stronger abilities. This is something I may have to address eventually with some kind of additional skill factor contributing to the game, since I don't want individual abilities to be so powerful that they overcome good gameplay.

The Ultralisk's problem is his first ability working against him and his second just not being all that effective at anything. Like you said, he's basically a weaker zealot. I'm actually surprised you gave him a higher score than the SCV.

Speaking of the SCV, I might reduce the cost of his wall. Or increase the height. When the wall was first introduced (exactly as it is now) it was proclaimed OP by people who had not experienced it in the gameplay before. Now that it has had time to sit in the game and more people have become accustomed to its use, it has decreased in usefulness simply because people come to expect it.

The Queen's just bad. I won't lie. I have been steadily buffing her, but it isn't helping. She just isn't fun to play. The next version will give her even -more- buffs, which will hopefully change the sentiments about her useless state, but I know I can't convince people that she is fun.

I generally agree with your statements/chart. I don't think the balance is as majorly offset for most of the units as people act like it is. Minor tweaks here and there will bring things in line. Until I make the next major change, anyway...



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Mar 9 2011, 8:02 am UnholyUrine Post #43



@Faz-

No I didn't want to argue, so I said as little as I could so you wouldn't nitpick it. But you did anyway.. sheesh

No it is not the same as removing push or removing the first ability. It depends on the kind of gameplay focus that you want the players to experience. Compare it with Fifa world cup. They really DO JUSt have kicking. there're no pushing (other than trying to steal the ball but you risk a foul) and the game is fun (to an extent) because of the Depth in game mechanics of the kicking/passing/shooting mechanics.

In Star Striker's case, I see that Chirus wants people to play with different characters that can fight while also kicking the ball. By removing the 2ndary ability, it makes the game more focused on selecting a character, rather than learning how each character works.

Again, it really depends on how you want players to play your game. Right now, I still see newbies just clustering and trying to attack, while the actual passing of the ball and other stuff is quite minimal. Remember that a newbie's perspective is different from yours. Faz- especially, since you've played the game so much, you've already mastered it. Therefore you think that everything's fine since you've had the time to learn it. But what I'm concerned about is people who aren't as impressed as you were or people who haven't had the time to learn the game to like the game.

tl;dr
- No, removing 2ndary ability isn't like saying removing 1st/push and just having the ball being kicked around. It is about how you want the players to play your game, which requires you to streamline your design and put depth in the areas that you want players to focus on.
- Example: Fifa world cup games - only kicking/passing/shooting - still very fun due to the depth in the mechanics of them.


In any case, the graph is highly controversial and redundant :-_-: But whatever floats your boat lol

@Chirus, I hope you aren't too influenced by peripheral route of persuasions... make use of the more compelling arguments!



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Mar 9 2011, 5:00 pm Decency Post #44



Since you've had a chance to process what I think are problem areas, I'll be more specific now with how I personally would fix them. I'm sure there's more than one way to do so for just about everything, so if you already have another idea feel free to weigh them against each other.

- If you get the channels out of the way I think the Viking will be nearly perfect. The Hydra's slow could probably use a buff, too as well as his movespeed.
- As for the Archon, I'll take your word for it for now. I've yet to see anyone use him well and can't do so myself unless the ball is locked into one area for a while. He's too slow to do anything if the ball gets moved around well.
- Marine I'd just make his grenade deal full damage (40) to everyone hit, but probably deal half damage to units not carrying the ball to prevent just mass nuking groups. I think that'd make him about balanced and an anti-cluster kind of unit which is a bit lacking for now.
- Ultralisk I still don't understand his abilities fully so I'll have to get back to you. I think making an ability where he can't be attacked might be interesting and fit him.
- SCV I'd always envisioned casting his wall at any angle. I'm not sure if that sort of vector is possible in SC2. If not, lowering the mana cost would be fine. I do think it needs a decently sized cooldown though, so it doesn't get too ridiculous. Maybe a second or two longer than however long the wall lasts.
- Queen, do whatever the hell you want with her. I'd say just ditch the tumor ability though, it's too tedious and has too small of an impact to be an exciting skill.

Quote
I don't think the balance is as majorly offset for most of the units as people act like it is. Minor tweaks here and there will bring things in line. Until I make the next major change, anyway...
Agreed, you're in a really good state right now with the majority of the units. I hope you add more soon, to be honest, I bet you could squeeze out 2 more per race. Ghost, Tank, DT, Colossus, Broodling, Baneling? =D

Now for the unmentioned guys:
Roach: make his speed boost give slightly more speed but also drain faster, so he can't just speed across half of the map.
Immortal: increase the mana cost of his second ability to 20 from 10.
Stalker: Not too sure, blink range/mana cost seems a bit obvious but might be too big of a hit. He might not even need a nerf once people start covering better.
Drone: Make medium or slow speed, make burrowing take way more energy if you fail. I don't even
Probe: Make Pylon more effective
Reaper: Lower the cost on mines so I can use them without hurting myself. Speed is too good for me to blow that much mana on a chancy skill. 25 --> 10 imho. Because of that, nerf his attack damage slightly.
Zergling: He might be okay, every game has a newbie hero. I'd say increase his attack damage, though, since one of his skills is semi-based around that.
Drone: We'll see after his burrow gets nerfed if using Guardian is worthwhile.


Quote
- Example: Fifa world cup games - only kicking/passing/shooting - still very fun due to the depth in the mechanics of them.
The game is fun because you're 1 person controlling 11 units. That changes the game a lot, just like the Mario example you provided earlier. When you pass the ball, you still have the ball. People in TSS look at passing as giving the ball away. When every player is capable of doing something intelligent on their own, simultaneously, the game changes dramatically.

As for passing, we had a player play for the first time the other day in a 5v5 who was doing awesome, making the correct intelligent passes and using his skills well. On the other hand, we had a player play 10 games with us who at the end was convinced that his unit kept unselecting itself and took half of the first game figuring out how to kick the ball, which he probably wou. I'm convinced it's more a level of stupidity and experience with team sports than it is with game experience. I can upload some of my first replays too to further prove that if you'd like, I save all of them.

I also communicate with my teammates a LOT using voice and text if needed. I yell at people for not passing and show that I'll pass myself. Maybe I just need to shut up and watch a game to see how people who aren't used to coordinating with teams deal with it: I've been playing team games at a high level for years.

Still, your point that newbies need to be considered is valid. That's the main reason why I've talked to Chirus about a better basic instructions screen and a more obvious (optional) tutorial. If you still think there's a problem after that, I'm not sure what we can do.



On a similar note, the game is on the third or fourth page down with a maxed popularity bar. I have no idea what that actually means in terms of players and it's still hard as hell to get a game going, but it's a good sign. =D



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Mar 10 2011, 5:15 am Chirus Post #45



Quote
I hope you add more soon, to be honest, I bet you could squeeze out 2 more per race. Ghost, Tank, DT, Colossus, Broodling, Baneling? =D

Medic or MULE/Ghost/Firebat
HT/DT/Hybrid (Reaver)
Changeling/Infestor/Lurker or Abberation

I've mentioned this list before, but yeah. These are the units I want to add. Any other models will either be event related (like banelings) or secret unit skins.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 10 2011, 5:37 am by Chirus.



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Mar 10 2011, 9:05 pm Chirus Post #46



Quote from UnholyUrine
@Chirus, I hope you aren't too influenced by peripheral route of persuasions... make use of the more compelling arguments!

I've heard a lot of very uncompelling arguments about what this game should be from a lot of different people. The game is the way it is now because of my opinions about what the game should be and the opinions of others that agree with my personal sentiments about the game and logic. That doesn't mean the game won't change down the road, but if I just took up the strong opinions of my friends (just because they were my friends), this game would have a lot of unnecessary and un-fun features (like WASD movement).



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Mar 24 2011, 5:47 am UnholyUrine Post #47



it was just my way of saying don't read too much into that graph cause it poses a lot of information.. and is unavoidably biased :C

Anyway... haven't played the game due to my laptop dying.. how has it been?



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Mar 24 2011, 5:51 am payne Post #48

:payne:

Quote from UnholyUrine
it was just my way of saying don't read too much into that graph cause it poses a lot of information.. and is unavoidably biased :C

Anyway... haven't played the game due to my laptop dying.. how has it been?
Been awesome! :3
And it got featured! :awesome:

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Mar 25 2011, 4:29 am by payne.



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Mar 25 2011, 4:28 am payne Post #49

:payne:

A new version is out. It mainly is about bug-fixes, as far as I know.
Next version will include an enhanced tutorial, options when starting the game, and 3 new units!



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Mar 25 2011, 4:42 am UnholyUrine Post #50



MORE units? oh jeeze...



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Apr 3 2011, 7:16 am Chirus Post #51



There's a forum now specifically for Star Strikers. I'll be forming a tournament soon there. http://thestarstrikers.forumotion.com/



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Apr 3 2011, 10:22 pm UnholyUrine Post #52



Wow it's been like 20 days before you came back....

Just want to say that the games improved a great deal now, but of course there're still some frustrating problems that could've been mitigated and/or streamlined.
But since you've chosen this design, and since people have sort of grown used to it now, AND since you've polished it as you went along, these problems are getting less and less in the way.

For example, The Clusterfuck problem, while still apparent in games, is much less of a problem now, probably because of revised ball possession, and people getting used to passing and stuff. It still needs work tho...
For instance, I think one way to make Possession more responsive is to increase the "Area of Possession", or basically the distance the ball can be away from the unit in order for the unit to grab the ball, when the ball is free (NOT in possession of others).
Another thing I really wanted to see was the Lob feature I keep talking about... Have u tried it? It won't hurt to try >:C

Anyway, Biggest problem I see is melee vs. ranged units, and certain units' abilities being obviously more useful than others. This can be ironed out over time.. so yeah



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Apr 4 2011, 9:58 pm Chirus Post #53



Quote from UnholyUrine
Wow it's been like 20 days before you came back....

Yeah, I've been dealing with a lot of bs life stuff lately. Two people quit at my job, so I've had to swap shifts and take more, plus my girlfriend broke up with me so my motivation is kind of killed.

Quote from UnholyUrine
Just want to say that the games improved a great deal now, but of course there're still some frustrating problems that could've been mitigated and/or streamlined.
But since you've chosen this design, and since people have sort of grown used to it now, AND since you've polished it as you went along, these problems are getting less and less in the way.

Thats my goal. There are still problems with the game, but I don't really want to just go about removing things to fix them. Some of the new options will let me play around with ideas and see what people like (like a no attacking mode). I'm also trying to improve the team-orientated aspects of the game by adding more units (like the ones I just added) that have abilities that work better with a coordinated team.

Quote from UnholyUrine
For example, The Clusterfuck problem, while still apparent in games, is much less of a problem now, probably because of revised ball possession, and people getting used to passing and stuff. It still needs work tho...
For instance, I think one way to make Possession more responsive is to increase the "Area of Possession", or basically the distance the ball can be away from the unit in order for the unit to grab the ball, when the ball is free (NOT in possession of others).
Another thing I really wanted to see was the Lob feature I keep talking about... Have u tried it? It won't hurt to try >:C

I may add an option for it. The problem is, I'm trying to manage my time to add the things I feel are most important to the progress of the game. There's also like ten new bugs showing up every day (thanks to payne) so I'm dealing with a lot of that as well. Lob shouldn't be too hard of an addition, though, so I'll see what I can do.

Quote from UnholyUrine
Anyway, Biggest problem I see is melee vs. ranged units, and certain units' abilities being obviously more useful than others. This can be ironed out over time.. so yeah

I'm thinking about giving melee units a damage buff. The workers are good enough without ranged attacks, the zergling has his attack/movement speed increasing ability (really only useful on slow units) the DT has his Wreathe ability (very good if you know how to use it), but yeah the other melee units feel kind of shunted. The Thor also suffers from a weak attack, because of a problem with his ladder design that I can't seem to fix (it takes him like 1 second to initiate his first attack, and I can't reduce this without the animation looking wonky.)



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Apr 4 2011, 11:48 pm payne Post #54

:payne:

Quote from Chirus
There's also like ten new bugs showing up every day (thanks to payne)
I haven't played that much lately, and I only reported 1 bug so... :P



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Apr 5 2011, 12:08 am NicholasBeige Post #55



So, I haven't played this. But i've been watching the thread quite a bit.

Please, PLEASE look into Movers. There is so much that you can do to alter the way the ball travels it's not even funny. A lot of what I saw in the video which Payne kindly posted is everyone running to the ball and spamming their abilities.

Strike - high power shot, used for scoring goals, arc of 20 (almost facing angle, little variation in aim without turning)
Lob - high, long, slow passing shot, used for clearing the ball and passing to a team-mate far away (fires in a parabola, like the Infestor using Infested Terrans)
Pass - quick toe-tap, has an arc of 360 allowing the player to pass the ball in any direction regardless of where he is facing. Less power than the strike.

It's late here and I'll post again with more detailed reasoning and explanation, but please understand that I havn't played this. I'm on EU.

But basically, when a player has the ball his abilities should be disabled and instead replaced with, Strike, Lob and Pass.

You can then further differentiate each hero unit by giving them different attributes, such as Strike, Pass and Lob - which will affect the strength/speeds/acceleration at which the ball moves when they use these skills.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong in saying that - right now, a player 'Kicks' the ball, and it travels 600 units in his facing direction?

Anyways the TL;DR reasoning is that this game needs more strategy. You've taken sport and put it into RT(Strategy) environment but from that video (and other peoples' comments) it seems like a 'clusterfuck' and ability spamming.



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Apr 5 2011, 12:14 am Decency Post #56



It is with bad players and no amount of tweaking is going to change that. Good players have excellent coordinated passing.



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Apr 5 2011, 12:45 am payne Post #57

:payne:

I think only one way to pass is the best, else the game becomes too unpredictable in terms of ball's movement and it replaces skills with chance.



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Apr 5 2011, 1:24 am Chirus Post #58



Watch some of the replays here. http://thestarstrikers.forumotion.com/t7-starstrikers-replays It isn't quite with pro players, but it shows the state of the game as it is now much better. There's still clustering, even with very good players, but in general people spread out and pass all the time.

You select what direction and distance you want to kick the ball. It doesn't automatically kick in your facing direction. One of the reasons I haven't made two kicking abilities yet is because I don't think it would really add anything to the game, except complicating the controls.

I don't use movers because triggers give a lot more control over the specifics of the movement (like bouncing).



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Apr 5 2011, 1:42 am UnholyUrine Post #59



The things Cardinal said are all good ideas

but the problem is that Chirus, not matter how much I've tried, wouldn't change the way he designed the game.
In terms of the way the game flows, Cardinal's proposed changes wouldn't fit.

Anyway, since Abilities are the major part of the game, working on those would probably be best

Lob shouldn't complicated it too much... but make sure you don't use "B", because 5 horizontal buttons is too much...
but who knows.



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Apr 6 2011, 10:13 am Decency Post #60



I don't think you need lob, it doesn't fit into the game and would make passing way too easy.

Right now it takes timing, awareness, and skill, which is perfect.



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