To be honest, I really don't think it's THAT big of a deal if someone steals your map. I mean, it's a douchebag thing to do and it'd piss me off if someone did it to me, but in all seriousness, it's not like you would get anything out of making a map. Will you become popular? Get rich? Become god of starcraft? Open source allows new map makers to learn how to create fundamental systems; I know for a fact that I learned a bunch of stuff from looking at other peoples' maps. Besides, if someone's too nooby to steal a map and add stuff to it, they probably aren't that great of a mapper, which means that they probably won't even understand half of the things you do (that is, if you release a good, complex map).

Also, like UU said, by having maps be open source, new versions can be made. There are a bunch of examples where a map was edited and make a whole lot better, increasing its popularity. Just look at starcraft 1 (who am I kidding ). There's been a whole bunch of new versions of poker d released recently, and they're a hell of a lot funner than the past versions. Maps need to be open source so that, one, others can learn from it, and two, newer and (hopefully) better versions can be made. Like I said before, if you make a really good and complex map, the people who look at your map in the editor probably won't know what's going on, so they won't really know what to change.

As far as I know, every single version made out of mikelat's Special Force map credits him.

Wrong. Europe has seen about 20 different versions of special forces over the past few months, all spawned from mikelat's original.

Jack has it on the head, and no matter how impenetrable your 'ideal-perfect-scenario' bubble is payne, people will always copy, rip off, steal and plagiarize your content if it is worth doing so.

The sad fact regarding special forces is that it is nothing truly ingenuitive in map-making. It's just a bunch of lazy tossers who decided instead of getting off their arses and making their own special forces map (of which there have been a few), they just copied the map in its entirety, changed a couple things and uploaded it as 'berserkers special forces' or 'timmy's special forces'... And of those few who did decide to create it from scratch, they literally copied it. Note for note. Which makes one beg to ask, why bother? If you're just going to duplicate something that already exists why not add something new?

I'd imagine for every 10 people who honestly only ever open a map to view its contents and learn from it there are about 15 who would have no qualms in rebranding and publishing it as their own.

Besides, it's more effective to use a wiki or a tutorial to learn how to map than to simply stare blankly at someone elses data editor or triggers. If you know how to use triggers, you can pretty much do anything. So that only leaves advanced functions such as banks and fancy-looking custom UIs.

Nexus Word Wars was locked through Blizzards normal publishing protection - which is about as effective as wearing a condom made out of sugar. Rodriguez had the sense to fuck things up inside his map once it was at a stable and publishable level. He converted all the trigger, variable and function names, as well as everything he made in the data editor to be called 'IIllIllIlIllIl'. Which is just a series of capital i's and lower case L's.

If anyone wants to view a map to see how something was done in the data editor they are a fool. Because chances are, they can just load a campaign dependency or use their head and accomplish it that way.

So, while open-source is important, closed-source offers 'protection' to 'your map', something 'you created' - spent hours creating in fact. And no matter how 'locked' a map becomes, or how good the 'protection' becomes - there will always be one bunch of aspiring young hackers one step ahead of the game. Truth.

Getting credit for a map will never serve any purpose in life other than make you feel good about yourself for wasting a lot of time on a game. Nobody even cares who the map creator is. It's not like the people email the map maker praising them all day long. You're not going to gain anything by being well-known over bnet.

Don't suppose you've ever published a map... or heard of Ice Frog... nope, didn't think so.. how about Guinsoo? Or Eul? Nope?

How's the weather under that rock of yours?

To add to Cardinal's point, looking at how someone else does a complex ability or something in a Data Editor wont teach you anything if you don't already know how abilities are structured in the Data Editor. You would learn how they are structured by reading a tutorial, and then after reading the tutorial you would have a better understanding of what you are looking at in the open source map. For example take payne's open source map that he keeps flaunting around, Swarmed Heroes. Some of Temp's abilities in there are complex and you wouldn't know how to recreate them just by looking at them without already knowing how to use the Editor in some sense.

Another example would be something like SotIS, which has been unlocked and spread on SC2Mapster for the purpose of "open source learning." I looked at the triggers in that map (since all the abilities are done through triggers) and everything is written in custom Galaxy code. That isn't helpful in any way to me. I'll still have to go learn Galaxy by reading a tutorial or guide somewhere.

Right, let's all have a chat about how the creators of the various versions of DotA were hired by separate companies to make new self-sufficient DotA clones.

And how many Tower Defense games exist now outside of StarCraft and WarCaft?

Sorry DevliN I ninja'd you big time just had to point out how wrong DemonSlayer was. But then again, he has two numbers in his name, so go figure

That's one instance of a map that got so popular that even if someone stole it, everyone would know who the creator is. Unless you create a ground-breaking new map (which I doubt any of us will), nobody's going to hire you for some outside job.

Wait, let me get this straight.

You're saying that no one is ever going to pay an interest in your map, getting credit for creating a map will do absolutely nothing for you. And, in fact, we're all better off making them open source, because we're all doomed to failure anyway?

There are at least four pro-gamers from Broodwar who were responsible for the balancing and testing of Starcraft 2. Every job post at Blizzard right now demands you have lots of experience with WorldEdit and GalaxyEdit. One can only assume that they use similar software themselves in creating World of Warcraft regions and instances, and most probably also Diablo 2.

In fact, I give up. Not going to argue with your useless points.

Pro gamers? As in starcraft players? As in not map makers? What does that have anything to do with this?

I agree that open source is important but sometimes people have to protect there project... and interesting fact : a crappy warcraft 3 flash tower defense inspired a great game called "GemCraft"

...read the sentence after that. He's saying that top players were hired to balance StarCraft 2, AND some job postings require knowledge of GalaxyEdit/WorldEdit. Those two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

I see an argument waiting to happen so I might as well butt in

WELL!111 AT least he isn't named after a FREAKING BIRD

hooooo SNAP

---

Anyways... SC2 being the way it is.. will probably have maps being mostly closed-source due to its "Premier Map" fiasco and the galaxy editor being ridiculously hard to understand.
But again, having Open-Sourced maps is very important for community development. Tutorials and Guides just won't do once you've gone to the level where you're actually producing maps and have a good understanding of things.

Also, it's just easier to learn through examples. And tutorials and guides may not have the exact thing you want to trigger.

As for spawning versions. It really depends on your mentality. Would you rather keep it so that you, and ONLY you, reap the benefits of the map.. or let others take some of the fame, but know that you helped them.
It's completely different than someone ripping you off.. so I don't know..

really, anyone can argue both ways.

I like open source because it provides me with better maps to play.

I prefer open sourcing because I'm more interested in seeing a fun map than myself sitting on a throne of e-peen.

Even if a better version is made (and if I cared about bragging), I can still brag "That guy built his success off of mine." Thumbs up to the first one to take my idea and make it even better.

I'm much more interested in finding delicious games than I am in worrying about trash games or having to sift through them.

gog damn I wrote so much about this issue I can't even think any more

In any case, it shouldn't be a big deal since you're not making a living out of SC2 mapping. And, frankly, if you're trying, you would be incredibly stupid considering how shit the system you're working with is.

I missed this thread because I haven't read SEN in months (sorry )

Although I've moved on to more web-dev related projects, I'm happy with the way Special Forces went. It was pretty popular on all the realms mostly because it was the first "real" version of special forces that tried to stick to the original formula. Edited versions have risen up to take its place, all of which have credited me.

It's not a complicated map, most of the work is in the data editor so there's not a whole lot to copy and paste. Despite that, all I did was I said it was free to edit or take what they want, all I asked of them was to credit me if they used my map as a base.

So if someone copied most of my triggering or techniques into their map, it wasn't a concern to me. Because really, it's more of a timesaver for the person taking them so there's no need to be petty (they obviously have a good working concept going on their map).

As for the map itself, I left my name in a couple of places, that being the minimap picture, the "help" credits at the beginning, and inside the map itself.

Any map that was developed by anybody competent left my name up, as they were thankful for using the map as a base, and I've actually been in contact with a couple of them and lended some help. In fact, I've had to ask them to REMOVE my name and try to keep me as a "originally created by" credits as I've been overwhelmed with suggestions for the popular edits which I have no control over.

As for the "crappy edits" as was described, I've noticed them too. The thing is that the person will add a CREATED BY SNIPER454 when the map starts or something, but my name is left in the minimap and the help screen (ironically these mappers also choose to lock their maps on publishing funny enough when I try to open them to see the actual changes they did). The thing is these maps never see the light of day anyways. If you search for "Special Forces Elite" sure you'll see about 30 edits, but they're sitting at the bottom so it doesn't matter.

I've heard of a couple of cases where people have stolen maps marked as private that are in "private beta" and then they host them to the public, but that's pretty much it for stealing.

Overall though, the maps that have spawned don't always take a direction that I necessarily approve of. There was a version that spawned that had all of the income shared, which I specifically refused to have in my version, as well as the inclusion of banelings in some of the other versions (I didn't find them to be a fun unit in many cases as they can't "group up" without killing all the players). Despite that it's not my say in what other people find fun. It may not be the way I would do things but I'm not going to go out and lock all my maps just because one or two people tried to claim credit (unsuccessfully) or tried add things to the map that I wouldn't like, that'd just be overdoing things.

Long story short people need to chill. Special forces elite may not have been a huge project but I leaving it open did nothing but spawn unique variations of it and help some people learn a couple things.

To wrap things up: people who steal maps are really stupid and won't understand the editor enough to take your name out of anywhere or get a top map on the popularity list, while people who give you credit tend to appreciate your work better since they spend so much more time and care with it, and will be the ones who get the map up there.

That's a dumb point of view. If the author doesn't want his map open source, it's his choice. It doesn't matter how beneficial it can be. His loss.
On the other hand, maybe he wants to be the one to edit it at a later point in time.
There's plenty of other ways to learn things, disrespecting the map maker should not be one of them.

Imagine if you applied that logic to other media forms.

Do you consider remixing a song "disrespecting the artist"?
Do you complain when you watch a video that borrows a clip from another video?

Just imagine if tomorrow authors could "protect" videos and music, because it's similar to the kind of user generated content people make in the galaxy editor. They work on their content just as hard if not harder. I'm sure there's plenty of people who would love to jump at the chance of that kind of security, but in the end it just stifles innovation. If you've ever enjoyed a remixed song or any video content that's borrowed from another video, you're a hypocrite by your own standards.

I know you're going to say something like "why doesn't blizzard release their games as open source". In this case they're a business, and are releasing full products, NOT user generated content. However, their games are the subject of tons of talented programmers, artists, testers, etc, so they have the right to protect their work. If your map has the same amount of people and work getting put into it, then I'll mind less if you decide to protect it. What gets on my nerves are the hundreds of maps that start as good ideas but in the end completely wasted, as the people who might be able to craft the idea into something better aren't allowed. Almost all of the best maps you can think of on Starcraft 1 that were popular and fun were edited iterations... the complaints in Starcraft 2 is that the popularity system doesn't a good variety of maps, you are limited to playing the top 20 maps but sometimes aren't the best maps, but no other games will populate so you have no choice.

Really if they care so much about stealing they shouldn't put their map up onto public domain. Nobody can steal it if nobody can play it. Really what it boils down to is epeen, they want to become some super famous map maker so they'll give it to the public, but don't want their work being edited or viewed incase somebody else might actually have a better idea then them. It's a selfish act.

And really, do you actually make starcraft 2 maps or are you just saying this as a theorectical map maker? Don't get me wrong it's not like I'm a fantastic map maker or you should be at least been involved in the process of trying to learn the editor and dealing with the frustration of the entire community keeping secrets just so their unbalanced mess of a map will remain protected while it never sees the light of day in the popularity system. The starcraft 1 community was a lot more open about teaching and evolving the games, while the starcraft 2 community is thinking of itself constantly.

Providing examples will better stress your point I Shall help..

• Nexus Destroyers
  
• Cat and Mouse
  
• Temple Siege
  
• Sunken Defense
  
• Block the Gate
  
• Turret Defense
  
• Zone Control
  
• Tug of War (to Build Tug of War to w/e)
  
• Special Forces
  
• Nuke the Whales (eventually to "Nuke the Whales Perfection")
  
• Assassinate [insert president here]
  
• Pylon D (eventually remade by ME into Pylon D Alpha land)
  

And the list goes on
Also, it doesn't include the maps that even just I, personally, drew experience from. Imagine how many newbie map makers used different maps to learn their skills. I would've never been able to map if I didn't first start off editing Nuke the Whales and Cat and Mouse.

@Last Paragraph
The problem you addressed stems from the way Blizzard treated the community. No, I'm not trying to put Blizzard down, so stop flaming me Cardinal. The way that they treat map makers now, calling them Mods, and pushing the Map Market out, all leads to over-hyping and over-representing maps for what they really are.

In business terms, this is great! Because then they can push their map market out. In community terms, it is utter shit. The reason why SC2Mapster is successful is because it is an attention-whore, where every member can get as much attention and hype as they want. It is evident with the amount of videos and news featuring maps (which is a good thing) while lacking the criticisms that ought to go along with them in order to push them forward (theoretically).

I've talked about this before. I think that, with the current ways of things, the maximum mapping community quality will be halved.
Basically, there will be a group of people that legitimately do great work on the editor. And then, there will be a group of people who will like to start mapping, but will never get to, because of all the problems of B.net 2.

Best example: The SEN community. More than half of us already belong in the latter group. We want to map in sc2, we REALLY do, but we can't/don't want to because of the poor editor and b.net 2 system. We can never really learn how to either due to the poor implementation of DL'ing maps, and of course, the protections.
If all of these problems were alleviated, I'm sure a lot of us will begin to map in SC2, and produce great maps in years to come.

Now, taking a more "updated" example, there are tons of "map development" that're being over-representated over at SC2Mapster. To be honest with you, a TON of those map ideas will simply NOT work. Anything with holding buttons, fixed cameras.. anything that tries to copy another game, such as World of Starcraft.. or things that are just so badly balanced that it'll never be played on B.net... will be forgotten.

These mappers may learn through the community, but their maps will never see the light of day. Because of the lack of sophistication from SC2Mapster, which stems from the way Blizzard treated the community, I highly doubt anyone will learn from their mistakes and just blame the popularity system. In the end, they will most likely give up. And even if they do continue to produce maps, the chance of their maps being popular is minimal.

Finally, a handful of people will become elitists, such as Mephs n Rodrigo. While they can make great maps, they are only part of the problem, as their maps will be weighed more heavily by the community, and will overshadow a lot of other players' maps.

The reason why SC1 worked well (but obviously not perfect) is because of the way maps are played. If your map is fun for that person, he/she will remake it, and spread it to other players. Therefore, your map isn't played simply because they recognize you as the creator, but because the map IS FUN, and SOMEONE LIKES IT TO AN EXTENT THAT THEY WANT TO REPLAY IT. It is also much better because Hidden Gems will be played occasionally by those who know about them, and will always have a chance of becoming popular.. go to http://renaka.com/pages/starcraft/motd for examples.

And finally, of course, is that people can open the map and work on them, creating better or more updated versions. Personally speaking, if I am the epeen loving d-bag that mikelat has accused of being the cause of this over-protectiveness, I found that by open-sourcing my maps, people create new versions of my map, but still remember that I am the original creator. Thus, hordes of soft and luscious gamer pussies flock to me (at least back when TS was initially released .. and also when I made Pylon D Alpha Land). They also tend to ask me questions, drawing from examples of my own triggering (which was a mess, as CAFG and moose can tell you )

All in all, it just makes more sense for things to flow freely in such a confined game network.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 27 2011, 11:17 pm by UnholyUrine.

Funny story. In WC3 I hacked into and modified a locked map called Vampirism (which was like Cat and Mouse) to fix some problems because the map creator had disappeared. I had to remake all of the trigger systems from scratch, and after introducing some new elements to satisfy my own interests (like alternate vampires, slayers, etc) I broke away completely from the original map but also left credit to the original mapmaker.

In the beginning I left my map open and unprotected, thinking it was a good idea that others could learn from the work I had done. However, one day I tried playing another offspring of the Vampirism map type, and realized that it was essentially a rip off of mine. The editor had removed credits to me and the original mapmaker from the loading screen, changed some of the art assets I had put into the map so that they'd no longer show credit to me, and in general fucked up the balance of the map. After attempting to contact the editor and seeing he was a complete jerkwad, incapable of compassion, I decided that I would never again leave one of my maps unlocked. If someone wants to edit one of my maps, then they can either contact me and politely ask for an unprotected version, or hack into the map and deal with the associated fuss. I feel that my maps would be in better hands if they were acquired in those situations, rather than just opened by some random newb.

Oh, and, while tutorials are a great asset, almost all of what I've learned about making maps came from toying around in the editor and learning how it works. I don't imagine I would truly understand the editor it if I learned how to use it any other way.

Who cares if a random newb kills the balance of your map and removes the credit? It won't get popular. Let him have his fun.