Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 General Discussion > Topic: The Importance of Open Source
The Importance of Open Source
Nov 19 2010, 8:21 pm
By: payne
Pages: 1 2 34 >
 

Nov 19 2010, 8:21 pm payne Post #1

:payne:

I think it's extremely important to recognize the importance of leaving maps Unlocked, and this is why I am asking to the community to write a wiki about it. I think it'd be really great to be able to send reticent people there for them to learn how awesome Open Source is.
Would anyone be willing to write such an article?



None.

Nov 19 2010, 9:40 pm DevliN Post #2

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

In b4 OSMap 2.0.

I don't think that's really an article we should have in the Wiki. If perhaps it was "Protection versus Open Source" explaining the pros and cons to both sides, that may work. In a Wiki you're supposed to show as little bias as possible, and shoving a lecture on why "open source" is better is very biased.

I personally have no problem with people locking their maps, and clearly neither does Blizzard.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Nov 20 2010, 2:35 am payne Post #3

:payne:

Quote from DevliN
In b4 OSMap 2.0.

I don't think that's really an article we should have in the Wiki. If perhaps it was "Protection versus Open Source" explaining the pros and cons to both sides, that may work. In a Wiki you're supposed to show as little bias as possible, and shoving a lecture on why "open source" is better is very biased.

I personally have no problem with people locking their maps, and clearly neither does Blizzard.
My demagogy failed. You're right. :><:

But I personally do have problem with people locking their maps. I would've found out so many things faster if they hadn't. :massimo:



None.

Nov 20 2010, 3:42 am NicholasBeige Post #4



But to argue the other side of the story...

The people who figured it out so much quicker than you did (ie. knew about it, learnt it, put it in a map, completed the map and then published it) deserve credit for their brain-smarts.

There is nothing worse than putting lots of time and effort into something for little to no recognition. I could create the next level custom dialog inventory system and use it in my RPG.
  • Open Source:
    • The map gets lots of direct downloads
    • Few people play the map, because it is map-makers who download it to see the triggers/data
    • The maps popularity suffers and I get little to no recognition for my hard work
    • Soon every map with an inventory system and a map-maker who uses a forum implements this feature
    • My name is forgotten to all but the tiny percentage of mappers who feel the same way Payne does about Open source - IE. give credit to the originator.
  • Locked Content:
    • The map gets slightly fewer direct downloads
    • But, lots of people play it online, constantly... it is unique and offers something amazing which hasn't been done before.
    • With proper viral advertisement (forums, youtube, etc etc) the map takes the #1 popularity.
    • Blizzard make it a featured map.
    • I get the recognition for my hard spent time, blood, sweat and tears.
    • I am forever remembered as the bastard who came up with it first and as the awesome mapmaker, by modders and players respectively.
Payne, I know how much you hate Wall'o'Texts so I tabulated it in a nice little list for you :)

But - from my own personal perspective. I am 110% for unlocked content. However, this is like being 110% for world peace and unity through global arms and weapon embargoes and banning of violence. It'll never happen, at least not in my life time :)



None.

Nov 20 2010, 3:43 am The Starport Post #5



Pay someone to construct an unlocker.

????

Profit!



Problem solved.



None.

Nov 20 2010, 4:05 am DevliN Post #6

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

You can already unlock a map by messing with the downloaded cache. "Locking" a map just means that it can't be opened in the editor from Battle.net. This is causing an OSMap style debate over at SC2Mapster. Apparently they're going to be changing the system, though, based on the Q&A at BlizzCon.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Nov 20 2010, 4:07 am payne Post #7

:payne:

Quote from name:Cardinal
But to argue the other side of the story...

The people who figured it out so much quicker than you did (ie. knew about it, learnt it, put it in a map, completed the map and then published it) deserve credit for their brain-smarts.

There is nothing worse than putting lots of time and effort into something for little to no recognition. I could create the next level custom dialog inventory system and use it in my RPG.
  • Open Source:
    • The map gets lots of direct downloads
    • Few people play the map, because it is map-makers who download it to see the triggers/data
    • The maps popularity suffers and I get little to no recognition for my hard work
    • Soon every map with an inventory system and a map-maker who uses a forum implements this feature
    • My name is forgotten to all but the tiny percentage of mappers who feel the same way Payne does about Open source - IE. give credit to the originator.
  • Locked Content:
    • The map gets slightly fewer direct downloads
    • But, lots of people play it online, constantly... it is unique and offers something amazing which hasn't been done before.
    • With proper viral advertisement (forums, youtube, etc etc) the map takes the #1 popularity.
    • Blizzard make it a featured map.
    • I get the recognition for my hard spent time, blood, sweat and tears.
    • I am forever remembered as the bastard who came up with it first and as the awesome mapmaker, by modders and players respectively.
Payne, I know how much you hate Wall'o'Texts so I tabulated it in a nice little list for you :)

But - from my own personal perspective. I am 110% for unlocked content. However, this is like being 110% for world peace and unity through global arms and weapon embargoes and banning of violence. It'll never happen, at least not in my life time :)
Mikelat didn't lock his famous "Special Forces: Elite" map... and it got popular! After a while, people started modifying it to their likes, and it ended up another version became more popular... which he never raged about for a simple reason: if the map is more popular with this edit, it's because the edit was relevant and he hadn't thought of it.
Also, did he ever lose credits for his map? Nope. Every single modified version of his map contained his name somewhere in evidence.

Mikelat, kudo for this first move toward an Open Source gaming world! :wub:



None.

Nov 20 2010, 4:22 am DevliN Post #8

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

I don't necessarily agree that an edited version is more popular because the edit was necessary. StarCraft 1 made that very apparent.

I will probably lock Invasion once I'm done because I really don't wanna see modified versions released that make it easier or remove the timer, or whatever. I'm of the mindset that if someone thinks something should be changed or modified, they should just make a suggestion to the creator.

I do understand the desire to see unlocked maps to learn how people did certain things, but I'm the type who learns through experimentation. I will admit I downloaded the unlocked SotIS map to see how they did some things until I realized their spells were done through triggers and then I closed the map and haven't looked at it since. Then again, I'm more impressed if someone utilizes the Data Editor to create an effect rather than easily doing it through a few simple triggers.



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Nov 20 2010, 5:47 am Centreri Post #9

Relatively ancient and inactive

SEN knows that there is no winning this argument for any side. I agree with Devlin; SEN should stay neutral. Agree to disagree, Payne? :)



None.

Nov 20 2010, 5:56 am payne Post #10

:payne:

Quote from Centreri
SEN knows that there is no winning this argument for any side. I agree with Devlin; SEN should stay neutral. Agree to disagree, Payne? :)
I wanted to force my point into the weak minds that would seek our wiki, but my evil plan failed. :(



None.

Nov 20 2010, 5:56 am The Starport Post #11



If people can already unprotect maps... why is there even a debate here?



None.

Nov 20 2010, 6:12 am payne Post #12

:payne:

Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
If people can already unprotect maps... why is there even a debate here?
Because unprotecting a map is a misbehaviour in regards to intellectual property. I'd like people to leave their map Unlocked on their own. >_>



None.

Nov 20 2010, 6:25 am The Starport Post #13



It's only a misbehavior if there's accountability. Unless we're talking about morals here.



None.

Nov 20 2010, 2:25 pm Apos Post #14

I order you to forgive yourself!

Wasn't this already done before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_and_closed_source
http://mongers.org/open-vs-closed
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/269
http://www.logicalnetworking.net/?p=1061
http://snook.ca/archives/building_a_web_application/open_source_vs

(Some of those links are more general and some are more specific [ex: Microsoft vs Linux].)
(The last link explains how you can be both closed and open source.)




Nov 20 2010, 2:57 pm DevliN Post #15

OVERWATCH STATUS GO

Quote from Apos
Wasn't this already done before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_and_closed_source
http://mongers.org/open-vs-closed
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/269
http://www.logicalnetworking.net/?p=1061
http://snook.ca/archives/building_a_web_application/open_source_vs

(Some of those links are more general and some are more specific [ex: Microsoft vs Linux].)
(The last link explains how you can be both closed and open source.)
Yes, it has been done before. :D



\:devlin\: Currently Working On: \:devlin\:
My Overwatch addiction.

Nov 22 2010, 6:37 am Gigins Post #16



Quote from payne
Quote from DevliN
In b4 OSMap 2.0.

I don't think that's really an article we should have in the Wiki. If perhaps it was "Protection versus Open Source" explaining the pros and cons to both sides, that may work. In a Wiki you're supposed to show as little bias as possible, and shoving a lecture on why "open source" is better is very biased.

I personally have no problem with people locking their maps, and clearly neither does Blizzard.
My demagogy failed. You're right. :><:

But I personally do have problem with people locking their maps. I would've found out so many things faster if they hadn't. :massimo:
You can always ask. Ain't that hard.



None.

Nov 22 2010, 6:46 am payne Post #17

:payne:

Quote from Gigins
You can always ask. Ain't that hard.
I would've if they all gave a way to contact them, yet they do not all.



None.

Nov 22 2010, 4:48 pm UnholyUrine Post #18



I agree that it is very important to keep things Open Source

As long as your map is popular enough, or that your name is plastered everywhere, giving clear indications that you want people to abide to the rule "If you edit, give me credit".

It helps round out the maps that benefits from other people's inputs. Mikelat's spec forces is an obvious candidate for that, as Special Forces is like... a budding mapper's wet dream.
Think about Nexus Destroyers... Cat and Mouse.. Random w/e.. MANY maps are made from these examples, and TONS of versions of them are made! If they were closed source, they would've never been as awesome as they are now.

It also allows other mappers to learn from your map. By the time people open your game to seek knowledge, your map would've been popular already. Even if it is not popular yet because you uploaded through a forum and such, it is still good to share information.

By closing the source, you're closing yourself from the community and development. Yes, you can try to help people thru forums/e-mails/tutorials.. but it's just so much easier to open source ur map. Finally, the new custom map system, albeit it being a total fucking piece of dog shit, really helps identify who made which map.



None.

Nov 23 2010, 6:55 am Neki Post #19



Personally I lock my maps because that's how I've always rolled. If someone wishes to edit my map, they can simply email me or ask me in person (doubt that'd ever happen). I've always felt that on the matter that keeping some of the concepts and ideas of the map secret made me feel better at least, as selfish as that sounds, I'd like to reap the rewards of my hard work, for just at least a little! Though the thought of multiple versions of one map flying around battle.net does seem irritating because most of your work in a map goes into finetuning to your tastes, but then people just go make "insane" and "double money" versions and it kinda defeats the point of you trying to balance in the first place. I'm just a cynic though, and if Blizzard didn't provide a protection option, it wouldn't deter me otherwise.



None.

Nov 24 2010, 2:08 am Jack Post #20

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Another point for closed source is that people can and will rip off your map, especially if its popular, and will remove all credits and stuff. Also, if you put a lot of custom art in your map and then someone steals it and uses it without permission or credits, you'd be pretty annoyed. However, I'd open source certain maps if/when I make them, just not ones like TS2 (due to possible high art content and ripoffability) and big RPGs. Maps like massers and special forces and such are fine to be opensourced, IMHO.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

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[10:53 pm]
Butch -- prob some weird character on a string somewhere or something dumb like that
[09:50 pm]
Ultraviolet -- It's weird indeed, not really sure what is so special about Spellsword that causes it to react differently on Remastered, usually EUDs are the cause of things like that
[05:35 pm]
Zoan -- I haven't played in like 2 years so maybe something changed I don't know about
[05:35 pm]
Zoan -- No-Name-Needed-II
No-Name-Needed-II shouted: Zoan No idea if anything changed.. I've made several maps that push TMOANC to the limit and they are still working.. 3 causes of it I've narrowed down are -Too many islands which some terrain on certain tilesets can create micro islands on cliff edges with basic isometric.. -Too many changes in elevation from high to mid to low ground.. -And too many tiles from certain doodads that block tank fire..
Any clue as to why a map which would previously work fine on past patches would now suddenly not work on the current remastered patch?
[05:34 pm]
Zoan -- I'll try Butch's suggestion of running in 32-bit, maybe that will fix it?
[05:34 pm]
Zoan -- Oh_Man
Oh_Man shouted: Did martiss' link not work?
It crashes as it does when you use EUD's incorrectly - like it closes starcraft and has the error window pop up with a ticket to send to Blizzard. I know it's not EUDs though since obviously spellsword doesn't use any, so IDK what it is.
[03:19 pm]
No-Name-Needed-II -- Zoan No idea if anything changed.. I've made several maps that push TMOANC to the limit and they are still working.. 3 causes of it I've narrowed down are -Too many islands which some terrain on certain tilesets can create micro islands on cliff edges with basic isometric.. -Too many changes in elevation from high to mid to low ground.. -And too many tiles from certain doodads that block tank fire..
[2022-5-23. : 12:21 am]
Oh_Man -- Wat precisely is wrong with spellsword now?
[2022-5-23. : 12:19 am]
Oh_Man -- Did martiss' link not work?
[2022-5-22. : 8:11 pm]
Zoan -- Also my KOTK maps all have the nooks and crannies issue when they didn't before; what changed?
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