Staredit Network > Forums > Lite Discussion > Topic: Lobotomy... Why it sucks
Lobotomy... Why it sucks
Oct 20 2010, 12:20 am
By: Tempz  

Oct 20 2010, 12:20 am Tempz Post #1



http://video.pbs.org/video/1049423655/

I watched a very shocking video today and it was horrific that someone can control it so he can do horrible things.

I can't really explain things more then this video.



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Oct 20 2010, 12:37 am Dem0n Post #2

ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

Isn't that what they do to "help" insane people? I remember it being in Shutter Island. :P



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Oct 20 2010, 12:51 am DevliN Post #3

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Based on my limited knowledge of how it works, a "lobotomy" just refers to doctors messing around with lobes of a brain (specifically and I suppose commonly the prefrontal lobe). I'm not sure if they still do it, but a lobotomy was an extreme measure for handling the most unmanageable cases in mental institutions because it can leave people as incapacitated zombies. And yes, movies like Shutter Island or One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest discuss this idea as well as a means to "help" patients.



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Oct 20 2010, 1:13 am Aristocrat Post #4



Lobotomy:

- Insert ice picks through eye sockets
- Rotate them to slice off the prefrontal lobes of your brain
- The lobes will float in the cerebrospinal fluid after being sliced off
- Patient now loses symptoms of insanity at a hugeass psychological and intellectual cost



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Oct 20 2010, 1:50 am Leeroy_Jenkins Post #5



So, I actually watched the video. That guy really turned into a monster towards the end of his career. His case notes against that kid sounded just like a regular kid, doing crazy kid things. I can't believe how eager he was to suggest a lobotomy. And then a lobotomy for a 4-year-old? WTF.

Personally, though, I think the side-effects (being a fat, stupid, unmotivated slob) is a lot better than being in a constant state of fear/psychosis. Although, with the invention of Thorazine, it has no use.

Edit: This seems like a pretty serious topic, no?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 20 2010, 6:17 am by Leeroy_Jenkins.



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Oct 20 2010, 3:22 pm lSHaDoW-FoXl Post #6



Quote from Leeroy_Jenkins
So, I actually watched the video. That guy really turned into a monster towards the end of his career. His case notes against that kid sounded just like a regular kid, doing crazy kid things. I can't believe how eager he was to suggest a lobotomy. And then a lobotomy for a 4-year-old? WTF.

Personally, though, I think the side-effects (being a fat, stupid, unmotivated slob) is a lot better than being in a constant state of fear/psychosis. Although, with the invention of Thorazine, it has no use.

Edit: This seems like a pretty serious topic, no?

I agree that this is indeed a very serious topic. What this topic comes down to is completely changing the way someone thinks, hence stripping them of their individuality and mortality. Basically put, I'd believe the morality behind this is whether it's all right to trade someone's personality in exchange to being supposedly 'cured.'

I'm greatly against forcefully changing the way someone thinks and as such I'm against lobotomy. I would sooner die with my problems and be misunderstood then basically be a zombie, Or even less then a zombie. I'll firstly argue on how changing the way someone thinks is wrong and then I'll move into lobotomy.

In our history we've misunderstood the human mind and we've tried to change people completely just because we didn't understand them. I wouldn't be surprised if Christian doctors gave Muslims a lobotomy just because their religion differed from ours, or if we gave gay's lobotomy's to supposedly fix a problem. Basically where I'm going with this is that really, we have no actual understanding whether someone's questionable thinking really should be changed because we cannot assume they actually have a problem. These days most of us know that it would be completely wrong to try and 'cure' a gay person and we know it's wrong to basically readjust someone's thought process to be the same as ours.

I'll even share first hand how this is wrong. As a child a lot of the adults thought there was something wrong with me and from such experiences I'm given the belief that maybe there really was. As early as kindergarten I was supposedly a brat because according to them I would never pay attention to the teacher and I had ADD.

As a kid I actually used that as an excuse to get away with a lot of things too. If I did something I'd blame it on ADD, so they tried to fix that supposed problem with pills. And you know what's really funny? At the age of Nineteen I realize ADD is one of the bullshitiest things ever, I'll even argue it doesn't exist. Looking back at the situation I did listen to the teachers, it's just that I didn't give them eye contact. And even today I still avoid eye contact unless I'm speaking to a friend. Big words like 'Depression' or 'schizophrenic' were added to my list of imaginary problems as I grew older over something as simple as the way I acted. As for my ADD? I was a kid, so of course I'd blame my problems on ADD real or not because I didn't want to get punished. I was never really diagnosed as schizophrenic but it was brought up that I had a few of the symptoms. (like avoiding eye contact)

And further expanding my bitching I'll argue that even if I didn't listen in class it wouldn't make me have ADD. People doodle in class all the time.

So my second argument is that the problems that the individual might be diagnosed with might not even be real to begin with. It's just they're reinforced by the community and other humans through something as simple as a misunderstanding. It's like a game of telephone. One person says something and as the story continues it gets more and more exaggerated and small details are expanded.

Now on to the lobotomy part. Firstly, this isn't something like fixing a leg, because in the end patient and doctor understand without a doubt that we need legs and we know whether it's fixed or not post treatment. Lobotomies however we're tampering with something we don't quite understand, the brain.

We live in a fucked up world where the very thing that brings life does not live,
to reproduce we stick dirty parts in dirty places, George Bush fucking lasted as the president up until his retirement, we fight over an imaginary man yet we condemn homosexuality and gun toting rednecks are recognized as sentient and intelligent beings.

Really, this world is fucked up. And there is no way we can actually measure whether someone's thought process is illogical or logical when the world its self is such a weird fucking place. We condemn cannibalism when it exists in nature to some species, we condemn murder yet we promote the military, we claim that the supernatural does not exist with the exception of god. And inside this neutron shaped little planet we are in an atom shaped galaxy where our very existence is ultimately infinite and beyond our comprehension.

We cannot even begin to imagine what exists past our own ideals and as such we cannot assume whether a mind is functioning or not. In the world the most 'civilized' species are the most savage. We act and walk with our heads up our asses yet the reality is when we hide behind anonymity we'll tear someone a new asshole. By nature we are all rude, aggressive, and power hungry twats.

And the men who get punished are the ones who embrace it as opposed to hiding it - this might be the world really runs.



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Oct 20 2010, 7:57 pm DavidJCobb Post #7



Quote from lSHaDoW-FoXl
[expression of bewilderment and misanthropy that is tangentially relevant at best, combined with a single case of snowballing psychological misdiagnoses]
I agree with you about the fact that lobotomies are bad simply because they inherently involve the destruction of a mind. The rest of your post, though, serves as a justification for that belief that is both unnecessary and barely relevant.



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Oct 20 2010, 8:01 pm MadZombie Post #8



So like, I have this teacher right?

Supposedly her brother used to work for the government or something like that and for whatever reason he was on the run. tl;dr it's a tinfoil hat situation where the guy supposedly knows information he should not know and was leaving, what I'd assume would be, some sort of discrete government organization. Cool right? So anyways Our teacher tells us that one day the government (idk) kidnapped her brother and performed a lobotomy on him. Thing is he can function perfectly even after his supposed lobotomy but he can't remember anything at all before he turned 20. I think he's a bit delusional but besides the memory loss he's fine. True? idk/idc.

I guess more towards the point:

I kind of see a lobotomy as a sort of euthanasia.

If you get a lobotomy and it leaves you as a zombie, as in you just sit. I don't see that as a bad thing as long as consent was given from someone. You've already died when you become a zombie and it's pretty much painless I think right? That zombie is no longer that person and that person will no longer exist, so in my book that's considered dead. The vessel is still there but that person died when the zombie form comes into the picture.

I'm ok with it. Of course you have to be at the point where you are a zombie/robot. Not a guy who can't remember half of his life or who some people are. IT needs to be completely no memory of anything. Like a baby.



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Oct 20 2010, 10:55 pm lSHaDoW-FoXl Post #9



Quote from DavidJCobb
Quote from lSHaDoW-FoXl
[expression of bewilderment and misanthropy that is tangentially relevant at best, combined with a single case of snowballing psychological misdiagnoses]
I agree with you about the fact that lobotomies are bad simply because they inherently involve the destruction of a mind. The rest of your post, though, serves as a justification for that belief that is both unnecessary and barely relevant.

Um . . . what does tangentially mean? It's nice to see you agree - even if you find a fair share of my post un necessary but meh, you speak truths. I don't think Canada and U.S.A perform lobotomies any more and hopefully we don't. I Think it's far more kind and more logical just to do the death penalty then to perform a lobotomy. Even then at least the person could feel before they pass away.

I'm also against the circle of magi in Dragon age and how they turn people into Tranquil's because that's basically the same thing.

Quote from name:f(._. )z
So like, I have this teacher right?

Supposedly her brother used to work for the government or something like that and for whatever reason he was on the run. tl;dr it's a tinfoil hat situation where the guy supposedly knows information he should not know and was leaving, what I'd assume would be, some sort of discrete government organization. Cool right? So anyways Our teacher tells us that one day the government (idk) kidnapped her brother and performed a lobotomy on him. Thing is he can function perfectly even after his supposed lobotomy but he can't remember anything at all before he turned 20. I think he's a bit delusional but besides the memory loss he's fine. True? idk/idc.

I guess more towards the point:

I kind of see a lobotomy as a sort of euthanasia.

If you get a lobotomy and it leaves you as a zombie, as in you just sit. I don't see that as a bad thing as long as consent was given from someone. You've already died when you become a zombie and it's pretty much painless I think right? That zombie is no longer that person and that person will no longer exist, so in my book that's considered dead. The vessel is still there but that person died when the zombie form comes into the picture.

I'm ok with it. Of course you have to be at the point where you are a zombie/robot. Not a guy who can't remember half of his life or who some people are. IT needs to be completely no memory of anything. Like a baby.

You become a corpse except you're a burden in the case of a lobotomy. A burden to both the family members and the staff of the institution. What of the expenses in keeping a person in a state where he my swell be dead? And really, I wouldn't think that Euthanasia should be compared to Lobotomy. (Though this makes me want to do a euthanasia thread)

I have a very poetic and perhaps even romantic view towards euthanasia and it rapes my ears when I hear of it being compared to such an act as lobotomy. Euthanasia your eased of pain, the family gets closure and your granted the gift of rest. A Lobotomy your stripped of what makes you a sentient being, the family will probably be counting the days that you're basically dead weight and as I said, from that point on your existence is a burden.

This is something you'd see umbrella doing.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 20 2010, 11:12 pm by lSHaDoW-FoXl.



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Oct 21 2010, 12:03 am TiKels Post #10



Everything worth saying has already been said, but I just want to point out how silly this is:
Quote
I'm also against the circle of magi in Dragon age and how they turn people into Tranquil's because that's basically the same thing.
Comparing real life occurrences to videogame fantasy ideas is just totally ridiculous. It is irrelevant and I'd go as far to say it's almost immature to compare something with such terrible ramifications to scenes in a videogame. Yes, I have played dragon age.



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Oct 21 2010, 12:27 am MadZombie Post #11



Quote
A burden to both the family members and the staff of the institution
Well I kind of figured that if a lobotomy was considered then you were a burden anyways right? I guess I might have used the wrong word to describe what I was trying to convey.

I also believe in allowing suicides so I guess that tells you something. :ego:



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Oct 21 2010, 3:12 am EzTerix Post #12



If lobotomy isn't added to the "crimes against humanity" list then I suggest it is. It has nothing going for it and overall it just destroys someone's mind while leaving them alive. That's one of the worst possible ways of living for anyone.

watched the video, wow that doctor war sadistic, especially towards the end. Glad we all agree lobotomy is beyond terrible.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 21 2010, 3:58 am by EzTerix.



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Oct 21 2010, 2:40 pm lSHaDoW-FoXl Post #13



Quote from name:f(._. )z
Quote
A burden to both the family members and the staff of the institution
Well I kind of figured that if a lobotomy was considered then you were a burden anyways right? I guess I might have used the wrong word to describe what I was trying to convey.

I mean you basically become a complete burden with absolutely no hope of being cured and a burden without an identity or feeling. Before lobotomy regardless of how insane you are at least you can feel.

I also believe in allowing suicides so I guess that tells you something. :ego:

You know, that would make an interesting topic wouldn't it? Someone should make a thread of that.



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Oct 22 2010, 12:48 am MadZombie Post #14



I just think it's too... well I don't want to say ignorant but something along those lines to completely consider lobotomy as useless and nothing but a form of evil.

Quote
Glad we all agree lobotomy is beyond terrible.
Well that's no fun. Let's get some more (semi)pro lobotomy guys here. :ego:



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Oct 22 2010, 2:11 am Centreri Post #15

Relatively ancient and inactive

Sorry, I can't be the anti-conformist here. I lurv my brain, and I''d kill anyone who tried to gimme a lobotomy if I had the means to do so.

No one as epic as I am should have to lose any brainpower. I'll actually start losing arguments! As for criminals... If they're bad enough to deserve a lobotomy, they're bad enough to kill (in most cases). I was pro-harsh-punishment anyway.



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Oct 22 2010, 11:17 pm MadZombie Post #16



Quote
anti-conformist
okay :-_-:



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Oct 23 2010, 1:01 am Tempz Post #17



I'm glad that I'm text walling people into this important issue =p (I can't believe someone moved this to Light discussion)...

I was only interested into this topic after someone told me that they had an accident with explosives and got pieces of shrapnel lodged into his/her (don't want to give out their info :O) body and several of those in there brain so i found it strange that they had such a radical change in personality could happen after it.

Edit : Lobotomy is still being used in the world for very serious illnesses however it can easily be replaced with other drugs and such lobotomy usually combined with drugs for serious cases however 3 - 5 years in the nut house plus the drugs is perhaps more effective as after 2 years of the lobotomy surgery said person a mindless, hapless, and shall i say worsened person... I do agree there should be limit for if someone stays in the Asylum for more then 20 years then lobotomy should be considered but it should be agreed upon by both the patient and the family without the doctor pushing for it and of course know all the risks and negative side effects.



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Oct 23 2010, 11:14 pm Decency Post #18



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Dully

Looks like an interesting read. =o



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Oct 31 2010, 2:05 am Tempz Post #19



It was... eventually you do regain brain cells but this is all dependent on red blood cells as the average human takes over 20 - 40 years to initially heal from a lobotomy. A human with a incredibly abnormal red blood cell count will heal in 8 years time (time not precise as abnormal red blood cell count very rare)



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