Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Custom Maps > Topic: Special Forces: Elite
Special Forces: Elite
Sep 12 2010, 5:30 am
By: mikelat
Pages: 1 2 3 >
 

Sep 12 2010, 5:30 am mikelat Post #1



I've made a special forces map for the map contest, here's an overview of some of the features:
- I've tried to capture the core gameplay of special forces, and add a few surprises and improvements since we're now on the starcraft 2 engine. Won't spoil them, you just have to play it.
- There's 15 units to choose from, all of them have their uses and their own special ability. Not the normal special abilities like stim pack and whatever (I felt that having that as an upgrade was always a cop out), but each unit has a special ability that is typically in the game and may have been altered or I made a new one. All units retain usefulness throughout the game and upgrades effect all units, so if you start with infantry and decide to get a few aircraft, you can have that kind of combination of units, which also adds a fair bit of re-playability.
- I've put in a fair bit of polish, I'm rather big on that, there's things like how you can pick your starting unit from the battle.net lobby.

So go ahead and give it a try, search for "special forces" and it'll be in that list (not a lot of special forces maps on battle.net it seems). I hope you enjoy it.

Two outstanding issues are:
- I have not done a whole lot of balancing work, especially since the mapping contest didn't let me do that really. I've done my best to balance it for 6 people, but I really won't know until people start playing it.
- The map appears smaller than the original, mostly out of time constraints for the contest, but it still has a lot of gameplay and depth.



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Sep 12 2010, 6:31 pm payne Post #2

:payne:

Well, I was quite deceived at the quality of the map.
While being somewhat professional, the balance wasn't great, the gameplay neither (though it's probably just me that hates Hack'n'Slash maps).

I really loved what you've done with the Lobby, though! I didn't know we could do something like that. :)

P.S. People that like Hack'n'Slash will probably like this.



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Sep 13 2010, 1:33 am mikelat Post #3



Have you never played special forces before from Starcraft 1? That's exactly what it is. I've tried to stay true to the formula.

The balance is actually pretty good. If you're playing it alone that's your problem. It's meant to be played with buddies.

It's hit page 4 on the popularity list, pretty cool.



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Sep 13 2010, 3:04 am payne Post #4

:payne:

Quote from mikelat
Have you never played special forces before from Starcraft 1? That's exactly what it is. I've tried to stay true to the formula.

The balance is actually pretty good. If you're playing it alone that's your problem. It's meant to be played with buddies.

It's hit page 4 on the popularity list, pretty cool.
I did play SF on SC1 and, as I've said, this just isn't the kind of map I like, really no offense there! :/
I played yours because I thought, exactly, that you wouldn't stay true to the formula. :P
I played with 4 buddies. Past like the first or second Hatchery we killed, a guy went all-in for Ravens... and really, he just owned everything on the map, including Kerrigans in under 2 seconds.

I'm glad for you it hit page 4, I'm sad for myself that still have to wait for maps like Hex'd, Runling Run, Sentry Scramble and NOTD to enjoy the Custom Games. :(



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Sep 13 2010, 12:52 pm mikelat Post #5



Alright I caved in and made a video of me completing it, you can check it out here (its a 3 parter):
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm3qt3X2BCo
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJtmx-Phd4I
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_U9ZlcyZjg

It hit about page 2 of popularity today, enjoy the videos.



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Sep 13 2010, 3:36 pm The Starport Post #6



I bet a side effect of the parameters of Blizzard's contest was a huge influx of these sorts of maps (that is, copies of proven successes from previous SC1/W3/etc. as opposed to new/creative ideas). I hope Blizzard gets the facepalm moment they deserve. :bleh:

(or maybe that was their goal...?)


Not that that makes this a bad map or anything.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 13 2010, 4:53 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.



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Sep 13 2010, 5:00 pm mikelat Post #7



Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
I bet a side effect of the parameters of Blizzard's contest was a huge influx of these sorts of maps (proven success maps from previous Starcraft/W3/etc.). I hope Blizzard gets the facepalm moment they deserve. :bleh:

(or maybe that was their goal...?)


Not that that makes this a bad map or anything.
Well they wanted innovation more than anything. Although my map is based upon special forces, it isn't a straight copy (there's actually a special forces map on bnet where the guy actually jumbled the tech tree buildings at the bottom of the map again just like in the first game. While this was necessary in Starcraft 1 it's not even close to necessary in Starcraft 2).

I disagree with your thinking that it's bad to remake the maps from Starcraft 1 and W3, but I will agree that it's bad to remake them EXACTLY without taking advantage of some of the newer editors features.



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Sep 13 2010, 5:12 pm The Starport Post #8



Edited that post, by the way.


Naw, I don't think it's bad to remake/re-envision, necessarily. I just think maybe they didn't think their cunning plan all the way through by making a contest with a hefty prize reward and a tight deadline constraint. Anyone "serious" about winning ought to make a more conservative choice for their map as opposed to taking risks (by attempting "new" ideas, I mean). There's not going to be a lot of true originality to come out of this, methinks.

Maybe they don't give a shit and just want to see stuff being made that people can play right away. Personally I think a lot of the point of a mod community (a place to try new things) is somewhat defeated with that attitude, though.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 13 2010, 5:24 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.



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Sep 13 2010, 5:28 pm mikelat Post #9



The Programmer on SC2Mapster made a bomberman style map, I saw that one and immediately thought that guy was sure to win. I still think my chances are good, as there's a lot of unique gameplay ideas and it's just good old fashioned fun, something sc2 needs more than another third person shooter that is kindof fun at first but you don't really pick it up again.

But the time constraints were pretty bad, I'll agree. I pretty much officially started this when they announced the contest, did a little bit of work as I as busy, then kicked it into overdrive after a week when I realized I would have no way to finish anything if I had waited. Either way I'm happy with the result.



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Sep 13 2010, 5:30 pm Ahli Post #10

I do stuff and thingies... Try widening and reducing the number of small nooks and crannies to correct the problem.

The map looks fantastic.
Make Kerrigan a bit stronger, especially the "end boss"-building's death's wave.

Static Defenses should become more powerful, too. Sunkens & Spores die instantly except in the first enemy base.

Btw, what happens, if the players pushes to the right side to kill the spawners before they are activated?

Reaper seems OP, but maybe their HP upgrade is just a bit to high.

Does Firebat blink cost Mana? If not it seems to strong for me in the beginning.

I look forward playing this in EU. :)
Excellent work!




Sep 13 2010, 5:46 pm mikelat Post #11



The EU has an easier version of the map at the moment, the guy I had upload it has to update it and he hasn't signed on yet (he's British). Last night I made kerrigans stronger and the hive spawns like 7 of them, and they also give away less money.

Might make adjustments to certain units and enemies soon.

If you push to the right side and kill the spawners, they will activate the ultralisks and the next spawner after that tier (roaches and mutas) which is why it's a terrible idea to take it out before you're ready.

Firebat blink has no cooldown and costs 25 energy. I did this intentionally so you can bring him out when he's around swarms of zerg, as well has strategies of blinking him really fast to assist an allie and other things. The cooldown is a melee balance thing which makes no sense in most custom maps, especially mine.



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Sep 13 2010, 5:56 pm The Starport Post #12



As for the map itself, here's a few odd suggestions:
  1. Make the CC seem more like it's actually doing healing. Purely effect, though.
  2. Nukes seem like a cheap way to make progress. A lot of the fun I remembered from special forces games was akin to a "cracking the shell" style of gameplay where you had to come up with ways to break into fortified new areas. Maybe add some creative support spells instead?
  3. For a similar reason, I'm not too sure about air unit heroes, also. But to a much lesser extent.
  4. One thing that always bugs me about Special Forces games: You never get an indicator your unit is taking heavy damage or when its at low health. Granted, you only have a handful of units (usually) and keeping on top of their stats are part of the game and ought to be expected. But I think a UI indication of rate-of-damage or at least a low health warning or something wouldn't be a bad buffer to add. At the very least it would enable you to tighten up the initial difficulty, as you could expect players to have a micro-ing edge as a result.
  5. Integrate upgrade options into a UI component? You SC2 fuckers have no more excuse to be using in-game units and shit for your option select systems. :hurr:
My 2 cents.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 13 2010, 6:21 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.



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Sep 13 2010, 6:07 pm mikelat Post #13



1. There's a heal effect when you're close by. It's subtle, but you can see it.
2. There's always room for that.
3. I was trying to make it as like 3 "elements", being infantry, mech, and air. Removing air is like taking out 1/3rd of the game :P
4. I can look into some ui solution maybe.
5. Wha? Where did I use ingame units for a select system? I made the only select system as a lobby thing, which is much more than what other SC2 mappers do.



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Sep 13 2010, 6:11 pm The Starport Post #14



Well I mean it looks like you have to select that one building to get your upgrades. Meh. Just a pet peeve of mine. :hurr: It's actually fairly straightforward as is.


Reapers also make the progress element too straightforward, like air units and nukes. I guess reducing complexity can be a good thing, but if you can pull off complexity while keeping it fun, then I think that could add much more to the game.


Edit: Also, where's the fun in taking out friendly fire? :bleh:

Edit Edit: These are just my observations from watching your gameplay videos, by the way.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 13 2010, 6:31 pm by Tuxedo-Templar.



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Sep 13 2010, 11:35 pm mikelat Post #15



Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
Well I mean it looks like you have to select that one building to get your upgrades. Meh. Just a pet peeve of mine. :hurr: It's actually fairly straightforward as is.
Making a UI for building units and stuff would be a bit clunky, also due to the time constraints over the contest I wouldn't of had time for something more elaborate. I don't know if it's truely better to do it with the UI as I am taking advantage of the command card options and so on, it feels more natural ingame.


Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
Reapers also make the progress element too straightforward, like air units and nukes. I guess reducing complexity can be a good thing, but if you can pull off complexity while keeping it fun, then I think that could add much more to the game.
I'll fine tune the game balance in due time my friend :)


Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
Edit: Also, where's the fun in taking out friendly fire? :bleh:
So you can't troll other players by killing them when you get frustrated or have to leave. People do that, I've played a fair bit of SF in starcraft 1. There's actually a fair number of people who immediately ragequit my map because it isn't easy, so removing that option was a good idea on my part.

Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
Edit Edit: These are just my observations from watching your gameplay videos, by the way.
You don't have SC2? Or you don't make maps for SC2? Tsk tsk tux :P

Also my map has hit 1500 games made per hour on US and almost has hit the first page... on EU it's on page 3 and has about 300 I think.



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Sep 14 2010, 12:17 am The Starport Post #16



Quote
I'll fine tune the game balance in due time my friend :)
But I'm not talking strictly about game balance so much as game logic. I'm suggesting there might be a way to make it funner by preserving and working within the constraints of ground terrain topology, as opposed to giving players ways to leap, fly, and (substantially) attack past it. If you follow me.

The original special forces managed it reasonably well. My point is: What are you truly adding to the gameplay by going beyond that?

Quote
So you can't troll other players by killing them when you get frustrated or have to leave. People do that, I've played a fair bit of SF in starcraft 1. There's actually a fair number of people who immediately ragequit my map because it isn't easy, so removing that option was a good idea on my part.
Surprisingly enough that rarely actually detracts from the map. Typically what happens is the remaining non-nubs get ticked off and retry hosting the game for better players, which ironically enough helps spread it further. :crazy:

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2010, 1:37 am by Tuxedo-Templar.



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Sep 14 2010, 12:34 am Fisty Post #17



Played this map three times today, I enjoy it, but people who dick around with vikings early on ruin it. There simply isnt enough firepower when they take off every time harm comes, so instead of farming the zombies, everyone dies.

Goliath seems to be the most powerful first unit. Can earn enough money for a new unit quicker than any other (I found anyway). Just pop 2 damage upgrades and you onehit the zombies.

Edit: Thoroughly enjoyed, although Marines are really Overpowered into late game, I just fucked everything up and carried the team because they all went for big units.

http://www.xfire.com/profile/thefistypony/screenshots/?view#104151590

http://www.xfire.com/profile/thefistypony/screenshots/?view#104151574

Mineral distribution system might want to be worked on if you plan on doing anything to improve the map, so we don't end up with one person carrying the team, like the above.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2010, 1:51 am by Fisty.



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Sep 14 2010, 2:12 am UnholyUrine Post #18



Ooh I saw this map. I didn't play it tho, cause I thought it'd be just a big boring killing spree

But watching the video, i think you've put a lot of thought into each unit. I especially like the firebat's blink ability XD
I'll play it again when I have the chance

EDIT:
One thing you can do to fix the healing thing.
You can make it a percentile of max health instead of linearly +1 hp per x seconds.
This'd solve big units healing very slowly.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2010, 2:47 am by UnholyUrine.



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Sep 14 2010, 4:25 am mikelat Post #19



Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
Quote
I'll fine tune the game balance in due time my friend :)
But I'm not talking strictly about game balance so much as game logic. I'm suggesting there might be a way to make it funner by preserving and working within the constraints of ground terrain topology, as opposed to giving players ways to leap, fly, and (substantially) attack past it. If you follow me.

The original special forces managed it reasonably well. My point is: What are you truly adding to the gameplay by going beyond that?
I'm not sure what can be added in this case, I don't remember the original special forces being too much about topology.

Quote from name:Tuxedo-Templar
Quote
So you can't troll other players by killing them when you get frustrated or have to leave. People do that, I've played a fair bit of SF in starcraft 1. There's actually a fair number of people who immediately ragequit my map because it isn't easy, so removing that option was a good idea on my part.
Surprisingly enough that rarely actually detracts from the map. Typically what happens is the remaining non-nubs get ticked off and retry hosting the game for better players, which ironically enough helps spread it further. :crazy:
The point is, I have the ability now to remove friendly fire, I might as well use it.

Quote from Fisty
Played this map three times today, I enjoy it, but people who dick around with vikings early on ruin it. There simply isnt enough firepower when they take off every time harm comes, so instead of farming the zombies, everyone dies.

Goliath seems to be the most powerful first unit. Can earn enough money for a new unit quicker than any other (I found anyway). Just pop 2 damage upgrades and you onehit the zombies.

Edit: Thoroughly enjoyed, although Marines are really Overpowered into late game, I just fucked everything up and carried the team because they all went for big units.

http://www.xfire.com/profile/thefistypony/screenshots/?view#104151590

http://www.xfire.com/profile/thefistypony/screenshots/?view#104151574

Mineral distribution system might want to be worked on if you plan on doing anything to improve the map, so we don't end up with one person carrying the team, like the above.
The goliath seems strong, but he has certain weaknesses. He can't run when surrounded as easily, hes slower. Marines technically attack slightly faster than the goliath with stim.

I don't know about marines being OP, a lot of units seem OP but maybe you just did relatively well. I played this game a bit today and people weren't sticking only to one strategy, and no strategy seemed overpowered.

Mineral distribution is fine. If you noticed, whenever you kill a massive unit, structure, or hero, the mineral text is bigger. That is because everybody gets that amount of money.

Quote from UnholyUrine
Ooh I saw this map. I didn't play it tho, cause I thought it'd be just a big boring killing spree

But watching the video, i think you've put a lot of thought into each unit. I especially like the firebat's blink ability XD
I'll play it again when I have the chance

EDIT:
One thing you can do to fix the healing thing.
You can make it a percentile of max health instead of linearly +1 hp per x seconds.
This'd solve big units healing very slowly.
I don't know how to do a percentile of max health.


Also the map hit #7 just now and it's barely been 24 hours since I made the map public. :D

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 14 2010, 4:31 am by mikelat.



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Sep 14 2010, 10:18 am Fisty Post #20



So the Brood Lords/Devourers get shared too? Oh, cool. I had been the only one to survive the initial attack and had to tank them till I could get 40 armor ^^

I'll play it a few more times, because I actually really enjoy it. This would be fun to do some competition speedruns on.



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