Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Melee > Topic: Cecil is in Diamond
Cecil is in Diamond
Aug 20 2010, 12:21 am
By: CecilSunkure  

Aug 20 2010, 12:21 am CecilSunkure Post #1



I got StarCraft II last night, and I'm in Platinum league! It seems this is a pretty simple feat since I've done it one day, and don't even know all of the tech for all the three races.

Here are my replays I have so far (lost some because of the 25 thing).

I play Protoss, and almost always utilize stalkers as my main force. I like blink.

VS Z I start off with 2 gates, and usually push out once I have a stalker, sentry, and some zealots. If I scout banelings I make sentries and stalkers and use the sentries to block my ramp. From then on I just keep the zerg under control until I tech to Collossus, where I'm then able to take on the Zerg army directly. Hit and run micro works ridiculously well with stalkers//collosus.

VS T I tech to Stargate first, usually, and make a couple Pheonixs as I find them very useful for scouting the entire map. If I know the enemy T is going to mass a bunch of units off of one base I quickly tech to templar so the storms will tear them up. This works especially well if you have stalkers with a sentry vs a lot of marines. The sentry's shield will greatly reduce the effectiveness of the marines (as well as zerglings). Most commonly the Terran will turtle with siege tanks -when this happens you keep expoing and keep making more gateways.

In PvP it seems whoever gets the most stalkers//immortals wins, with emphasis on the immortals. A push with 6 stalkers and an immortal seems to work very well if you follow it up with a pylon for warping in more stalkers -although this can be risky if it's close game; the enemy's robo will be producing immortals just as yours does, but you'll have the walking distance delay.

Tricks I've found useful:
  • Warp prism a couple units into the back of the enemy's base. Once they pull the majority of their army, hit the front while it's empty.
  • If you're scouting well, you'll know where the enemy's army is. If they move it out (to their expo or something), run on into their main and leave some sentries behind to keep the entrance blocked. You can do some major damage before your sentries run out of mana.
  • The sentry globe shield greatly reduces the effect of the zergling and marine attacks -use at least one in your first group of units.
  • Pheonix > Muta.
  • If you scout early banelings you need sentries to block your ramp while stalkers stand behind them.

Oh and one more thing, I defeat the owner of Nibbitz in 1v1 :D
Here's most of my replays: http://www.mediafire.com/?sn0a0osi0860ifc

[Edit]I made diamond today.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Aug 21 2010, 11:32 am by CecilSunkure.



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Aug 20 2010, 1:12 am dumbducky Post #2



None of this is really new. Observers are much better scouts than phoenixes.
Your second trick is a kind of dumb. You'll need to use a fairly large force to break into their main, otherwise they'll be able to build some units in their and take you out. But if you divert your army into their base, you leave your base open to attack. Maybe it works in certain situations, I don't know.
Sentries shields only effect ranged damage, making them useless against zerglings.
Of course Phoenix is better than mutalisks. One is a dedicated AA unit and the other is just a harasser.

One little trick I like to use on maps with cliffed mains is to rush blink and an observer. Then you get a small group of stalkers and bring them and the observer to the edge of the cliff. The observer gives you the sight to blink up the cliff. Then you can run over an harass the peon lines. When units come rushing in, you'll be able to run back to the cliff and blink back down and away. You should be able to do it with minimal losses while disrupting the other player's economy. If they've got a nat, you can use your stalkers as a diversion to get them to pull away from it and then attack.



tits

Aug 20 2010, 1:19 am CecilSunkure Post #3



Quote from name:negrodamus
Sentries shields only effect ranged damage, making them useless against zerglings.
Oh damn, thanks. I'll keep that in mind. I had no clue.

Quote from name:negrodamus
But if you divert your army into their base, you leave your base open to attack. Maybe it works in certain situations, I don't know.
If they leave to attack you, you'll be dealing damage in their base while having a small window of time (travel time for zerg), to order more units. You can also just leave the enemy base and move back to yours if they counter attack. It works in some situations, and I don't force it to happen -I just do it if I see the chance to. Plus, it's hilarious.

Quote from name:negrodamus
Observers are much better scouts than phoenixes.
[Edit] Phoenixes are faster, and are useful when the enemy is using medivacs. [Edit 2] Plus Terran doesn't really have cloaked units, so pheonixes have just been more useful for me than observers. I also like having the immediate access to Void Rays, which are useful against a lot of siege tanks.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 20 2010, 1:29 am by CecilSunkure.



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Aug 20 2010, 2:07 am MasterJohnny Post #4



I am also in Platinum league.
I do not see why you would block banelings with sentry. I think its better to have the stalkers block and the sentry behind as stalkers have more health.



Philosophy deals with unanswered questions. Religion deals with unquestioned answers. I am a Mathematician

Aug 20 2010, 2:11 am Alzarath Post #5

Praetor

I doubt you Johnny... I'm sure he was talking about the force fields...



None.

Aug 20 2010, 2:13 am dumbducky Post #6



I think he means blocking with force fields. Sacrificing sentries to fend off banelings is incredibly stupid.



tits

Aug 20 2010, 2:21 am MasterJohnny Post #7



Quote from CecilSunkure
If you scout early banelings you need sentries to block your ramp while stalkers stand behind them.

It does not sound like use guardian shield/force field. To me it sounds like use sentries as a sacrifice. Guardian shield does not do anything against banelings right?
If he uses force field the banelings will just run away? Then comeback a little later as sentry will run out of energy.

I never found force field useful except blocking the enemy ally so they cannot come out to help.



Philosophy deals with unanswered questions. Religion deals with unquestioned answers. I am a Mathematician

Aug 20 2010, 2:25 am CecilSunkure Post #8



Quote from MasterJohnny
If he uses force field the banelings will just run away? Then comeback a little later as sentry will run out of energy.
Yeah, if you delay them long enough you can actually build up enough units for a solid defense, rather than getting overrun while you have 2 sentries and 3 stalkers.



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Aug 20 2010, 2:34 am dumbducky Post #9



Quote from CecilSunkure
Quote from MasterJohnny
If he uses force field the banelings will just run away? Then comeback a little later as sentry will run out of energy.
Yeah, if you delay them long enough you can actually build up enough units for a solid defense, rather than getting overrun while you have 2 sentries and 3 stalkers.
This. Also, if you're on even ground against a largely melee force, you can use forcefields to surround yourself or the enemy and just open fire without them being able to touch you. I saw a clip where zerg had a group of banelings. P came in with a few templars and sentries (along with basic units), Z had enough banelings to wipe out P pretty easily. However, he bunched them up and P quickly threw up enough force fields to entrap them. A storm or two from the templars killed them all, gg. This all happened in a bout 5 seconds, so you have to be up on your micro.



tits

Aug 20 2010, 2:39 am CecilSunkure Post #10



That sounds interesting. Can you link me to that?



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Aug 20 2010, 9:31 pm Vi3t-X Post #11



Any half decent player wouldn't pull his entire army to kill off a few units in the back.

Any half decent player wouldn't keep his army in his main. The natural is a much more effective place to defend, even on maps with two openings, like Kulas Ravine.

Guardian shield does not protect against melee attacks.

I find it much easier just to wall off and throw a few stalkers behind against a baneling... bust?. You don't have to waste that gas on sentries, so you can put more stalkers on the field, and tech up to robo or HT much faster.


Blink Stalkers and Zealots beat Blink Stalkers and Immortals.
Blink Stalkers with Sentries if used effectively can beat Blink Stalkers and Immortals.
In conclusion, use Blink Stalkers.



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Aug 20 2010, 11:55 pm Amadi Post #12



Quote from Vi3t-X
You don't have to waste that gas on sentries, so you can put more stalkers on the field, and tech up to robo or HT much faster.

Sentries, however, are very effective against all of the following Zerg units:

A: Zerglings. You can use walls to stop them from surrounding you. Narrow Pathways are good when fighting vs speedlings. This is why most terran players run into mineral fields against zerg players whenever able: Less skin-to-skin contact area means 'lings lose.
B: Hydralisks. Guardian shield vs fast-attacking low-damage ranged unit. Do the math.
C: Banelings. Walls stop them from reaching your base/army, Illusions blow them up for nothing.
D: Mutas. Guardian shield is just golden against these, too.

In most of the cases the sentries will not be a waste against the zerg player. Infact, well-microed sentries probably cause me most problems against protoss players. They are just way too versatile to be dismissed.



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Aug 21 2010, 1:32 am Vi3t-X Post #13



Yes, but that gas can be put to much better use on colossi or high templar. High templar cost 50 more gas (and you could argue 400 minerals and 500 gas for tech and upgrades), but they massacre zerg units much more effectively. Not to mention when you're out of energy, you can morph an archon and simply disintegrate zerglings.



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Aug 21 2010, 5:08 am CecilSunkure Post #14



Quote from Vi3t-X
Yes, but that gas can be put to much better use on colossi or high templar. High templar cost 50 more gas (and you could argue 400 minerals and 500 gas for tech and upgrades), but they massacre zerg units much more effectively. Not to mention when you're out of energy, you can morph an archon and simply disintegrate zerglings.
It takes a long time to tech to those type of units. Early game relies on force fields and energy shields. Vs z you need the shields to funnel units and block your ramp, vs T you need the energy ball shield to lower the effectiveness of every single T unit that exists. You die against decent players if you have no sentries early on. You need zealots to counter the standard MM timing pushes, and as such you have a backup of vespene that shouldn't be spent on large amounts of stalkers (because large amounts get wasted by MM). You put what's leftover into the ever so helpful sentries.

Quote from Vi3t-X
Any half decent player wouldn't pull his entire army to kill off a few units in the back.
That's why you force him to by warping in, or making it look like an all out attack.

Quote from Vi3t-X
Any half decent player wouldn't keep his army in his main. The natural is a much more effective place to defend, even on maps with two openings, like Kulas Ravine.
He would if he has one base, and I was referring the nat//main as a singular unit anyways.

Quote from Vi3t-X
I find it much easier just to wall off and throw a few stalkers behind against a baneling... bust?. You don't have to waste that gas on sentries, so you can put more stalkers on the field, and tech up to robo or HT much faster.
A single well placed force field from a sentry can cut an early push up your ramp in half, letting you fight only half their army at a time. If you have more sentries you can possibly even fight multiple chunks at a time. Besides this and most important of all, it can delay a massive and early zerg rush.



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Aug 21 2010, 2:44 pm Riney Post #15







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-- Updated as of October 2019 --

Aug 21 2010, 3:25 pm TiKels Post #16



Quote from Riney
LOL!



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Aug 21 2010, 9:15 pm CecilSunkure Post #17



:D

Well I've transitioned into using actual build orders, and studying up on the current strategies I can find on TL.

If anyone wants to get some 1v1 going, please pm me so we can get some practice in.



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Aug 24 2010, 4:38 pm Vi3t-X Post #18



Quote from CecilSunkure
Quote from Vi3t-X
Yes, but that gas can be put to much better use on colossi or high templar. High templar cost 50 more gas (and you could argue 400 minerals and 500 gas for tech and upgrades), but they massacre zerg units much more effectively. Not to mention when you're out of energy, you can morph an archon and simply disintegrate zerglings.
It takes a long time to tech to those type of units. Early game relies on force fields and energy shields. Vs z you need the shields to funnel units and block your ramp, vs T you need the energy ball shield to lower the effectiveness of every single T unit that exists. You die against decent players if you have no sentries early on. You need zealots to counter the standard MM timing pushes, and as such you have a backup of vespene that shouldn't be spent on large amounts of stalkers (because large amounts get wasted by MM). You put what's leftover into the ever so helpful sentries.

Quote from Vi3t-X
Any half decent player wouldn't pull his entire army to kill off a few units in the back.
That's why you force him to by warping in, or making it look like an all out attack.

Quote from Vi3t-X
Any half decent player wouldn't keep his army in his main. The natural is a much more effective place to defend, even on maps with two openings, like Kulas Ravine.
He would if he has one base, and I was referring the nat//main as a singular unit anyways.

Quote from Vi3t-X
I find it much easier just to wall off and throw a few stalkers behind against a baneling... bust?. You don't have to waste that gas on sentries, so you can put more stalkers on the field, and tech up to robo or HT much faster.
A single well placed force field from a sentry can cut an early push up your ramp in half, letting you fight only half their army at a time. If you have more sentries you can possibly even fight multiple chunks at a time. Besides this and most important of all, it can delay a massive and early zerg rush.


1) Many players are phasing out of a roach opening, so a zealot and stalker wall off is acceptable, allowing tech into blink stalkers, or robotics facility. If they do go into a roach opening, Immortals 3-shot roaches. Chronoboost immortals.

2) You'd have to tech to robotics and get a warp prism. While your zealots / stalkers warp in, he: Sends an equal number of zealots to dispatch them, leaving his stalkers to defend the front which is logically walled off; sends a few roaches and zerglings/hydralisks, leaving quite a large army to defend his front, since zerg can out-macro (unless you somehow killed the natural); sends a few marines, marauders/siege tanks. The only real threat I see with this currently is if you teched to one of the templars, warped them in and harassed the mineral line, and even then, that's more resources going towards tech. Remember that for the five seconds that they're warping in, they can still be attacked.

3) If they had one base, why would the army mobilize to defend a non-existent natural?

4) Banelings are expensive units. If the zerg player wants any real attempt at a bust, the most common build (and I use this on occasion), is 13 pool, 12 extractor, speedling, baneling nest. When all of those are complete, you should have enough minerals / gas to produce 6-8 banelings, and have a zergling army of maybe 20-28 zerglings (depending on if you switched into an economical build, or just decided to go all in). Funneling banelings usually wont matter, unless you've blocked off the entire ramp, and myself personally, I always find myself running short on gas, so I'd rather block the entrance with a gateway (thus rendering the bust useless). Also, if you've scouted correctly, and you notice a bust coming, placing those structures behind existing structures is useful. You should also have a number of zealots up to be ready. The main reason why I stress not to use gas is that I like to get +1 protoss weapons to make sure that regardless of what tricks the zerg may have, you'll still be ready.



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Nov 1 2010, 4:58 pm NicholasBeige Post #19



The Sentry block is an invaluable tool for a Protoss army. I find that in medium sized to large battles (ie. when you cannot micro your blink stalkers to safety at a rate of 90%+ or higher) it becomes more and more important to choose your terrain (ie. where you do battle). The Sentry's ability is a little tool which ultimately allows you to create your own bottle-necks, blocks and traps. When used well, which is rarely, it is astounding to witness.

Personally, I never tech Hallucination. In 9 times out of 10 I fast-tech to a Council and go for either Charge or Blink. Using QXC's Build Order Tester (search SC2 Mapster, it too, is invaluable), I can consistently rush out 20 Blink Stalkers in under 10 minutes. Basically, once you have reached 4 Gateways and Warp-Gate technology, you are ready to go deal some serious damage to your opponent. I usually rush with a probe, put up a proxy pylon and reinforce my troops continuously. Another alternative, when I see my opponent is going to outmatch me in forces/combat - I utilize Blink to get into his mineral line - with his economy damaged, however slightly - the Warpgate technology will allow you to rebuild before he can bring the fight to your doorstep.

Another advantage of the Blink-Run-By is you get a pretty holistic scout about your opponents base. Allowing you to alter your tech. Immortals counter Thor's remarkably well, they move faster and 7 of them can One-Shot a Thor. NEVER, EVER train Air units if your opponent is making/has the ability to make Thors. Their air attack does splash damage - which pretty much munches through Voidrays and Carriers...

One final gem of knowledge I like to share is the importance of Gas as Protoss. My build order is something like this (for all Protoss games)
  • Pylon @ 8
  • Chronoboost 2x Probes
  • Gateway @ 13
  • Chronoboost 2x Probes
  • 2x Assilmilator @ 15
  • Pylon @16

Keep 6 probes on your gas from this (relatively) early stage in the game, until you die or win. This gives you the ultimate flexibility as a Protoss player. Dark Templar are the perfect mid to late game harassment units, if used creatively, you can knock out valuable sectors of your opponents infrastructure. They also make invaluable scouts and expo-deniers. I tend to get 5 or 6 and scout - and if my opponent is becoming a detector (Ravens/Overseers/Observers/Photon/Missile/Spore Turrets or even 2+ Orbital Commands) I transition these (now redundant) Dark Templar into Archons.



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Nov 1 2010, 8:02 pm CecilSunkure Post #20



That large amount of early stalkers is going to hurt you in your economy by a large amount, especially since you're getting such an early vespene income. In order for this sort of tactic to be viable, you are going to need to do some serious damage with your early stalkers, in order to at least set the enemy back to the position you are at.

I feel that protoss play has been proven to be most powerful (at this time) when the protoss plays a highly macro-oriented game in high level play. I predict that the 1 gate FE for PvT is going to become the standard opening, and FE vs zerg will always, always happen (similarly to PvZ in BW). Vs Protoss a FE can only be viable and effective in a map with a decent choke point, in order to funnel enemies towards your cannons. I'm currently around 1600 diamond due to me not taking SCII so seriously, though earlier while I was 1400 the leading ladder player was at like 2000 (the leading ladder player is now 2700) I was successfully fast expansion vs other protoss 4 warpgaters. This works because the 4 warpgate timing attack hits at about the same time you have 2 cannons and units from 2 gateways. Cannons are strangely cost effective and hard to deal with.



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