Staredit Network > Forums > SC2 Melee > Topic: ZvT help
ZvT help
Jul 30 2010, 2:10 am
By: PearS  

Jul 30 2010, 2:10 am PearS Post #1



So i play zerg and most games i like to go fast roaches unless scouting says i should do otherwise. I run into a problem when a terran player walls his door (which is everytime because i dont see why they wouldn't do it).

When i see the wall i immediatly cut all ground units and get tier 2 mutas as fast as i can because i feel like it is a losing battle trying to get vision up the ramp and then pushing the few ranged units in the choke to get mauled by the rines/whatever else the terran has by then.

Ok so i usually get mutas up quick because i'm getting gas kind of quickly with the roach build anyways so i can usually get mutas on their worker line and take out a good bit...except when they automatically put turrets up before i even show my mutas.

So from here i see no way in except with drop/nydus/guardians so i keep a small roaming force, set up a ling on each xel naga tower, and expand once or twice....thinking its time to settle in for the long macro game.

The terran players usually mass air because their air units are so dang good. An army of vikings is HARD for me to kill and even banshees are annoying even if i have mobile mutas and observers to spot them. So my question is how do i stop all this. It seems zerg has like no way to defeat terran air with such few units of theirs even able to hit air (hydra muta corrupter queen).

Instead of going mutas or settling in for a long macro game should i instead get a mobile ground force and try to stop my opponent from expanding so i can attrition him out? please help! i dont wan another loss for this stupid matchup =[



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Jul 30 2010, 6:02 pm BeDazed Post #2



Theres always the early baneling/zergling rush. I wouldn't try it if you get scouted though. The build is plain simple. From one base, you eco/early gas. Get the building as fast as you can. By then, you'll probably have queen out. Make loads of lings. Banelings. 5~6 of them should do. Put them on front then pop T's supplies. Use extra caution not to use those on the barrack. It won't do a damn thing. Rush in with your zlings. Voila, a baneling rush. But if it gets scouted, then T will simply put up a bunker or two, and all will be spoil't.

Now then, for a long macro game however.. You'll have to put up with long macro games. Most decent T's, gold or platinum, you won't be able to make it work. Unless you're fighting a drunk opponent, it won't work. A zerg's long macro game is plain out simple. You have two choices to make. Single hatchery, put up some eco, then tech. Two hatchery, strong economy, loads of zerg. At early to mid game, you need lots of hydras and roaches. Mid to late, still, with more lings and infestors and any shit you think that would be useful. But still, hydra roach. The way the zerg is meant to be played. Also, long macro games = upgrades. Upgrades make loads of difference.



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Jul 30 2010, 11:35 pm ImagoDeo Post #3



Yeah, I'd agree with BeDazed. Blings are the way to go. Nothing better for popping a terran wall, especially if you get in before he has tanks out en masse. Then run in and trash the eco with your lings. Either that or you can try to kill his army, but if he's not going tanks he'll have a pretty decent army by that point and he probably won't have trouble killing your zerglings, so go for the economy. Each zergling just has to kill one half SCV to more than pay for itself, both short and long term. At that point with his wall down, and him on guard, keep pressure by making a few more blings and some zerglings, bust his wall again if it's safe (check for siege tanks with a zergling first), and expand. Then you can transition to mutas and go harass. Keep map control - sending overlords to islands to dump creep will prevent him from getting a sekrit bace there. Don't forget to send a ling to each Watchtower. Once your mutas pop and he sees them and gets more marines, get more banelings, bust the wall and try to hit either all his marines or his economy. If he's going thors by that point, more zerglings are the ticket. Don't forget you can backdoor him with a nydus worm, too.

Hope my wall of text helps.



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Jul 31 2010, 3:34 am Vi3t-X Post #4



Nydus backdoor. :P

Seriously, diamond players aren't that great. Most of them don't have their entire base scouted.



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Aug 3 2010, 2:04 am Cheese Post #5



Like the others have said baneling rush, but if you have to wait for the long macro game then expand across the map, deny him expansions, and Tech to Broodlords.
Then I suggest some corruptors and hydras supported by creep to fend off Vikings, fungal growth can be useful against terran air too, immobilizing them to get ur Broodlords away and your hydras and corruptors in for the kill.

Nydus is good too unless they are super noob and surround the entire border of their base with Turrets.



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Aug 3 2010, 3:29 pm BeDazed Post #6



Or unless the opponent is pretty smart and knows how to make some supply depots on the borders.



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Aug 8 2010, 5:43 pm PearS Post #7



yeah i hate when they build around their whole base...makes it hard to sneak in with air or nydus.

I've was talking to a few high level platinum Terran players last night and some of them say that when a Z player goes mutas relatively fast it's usually big trouble for them. Do yall think a fast baneling/ling to mutas strat would work? And if so does anyone have a build that they like to use written down? I've been tinkering on one with AI but you know it isn't the same as fighting a human.



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Aug 8 2010, 9:50 pm BeDazed Post #8



You can't fast baneling and then muta. If you baneling, you'll end up spending more gas then you imagine enough for mutas. Then either you'd need to nat or 1 base muta. If you 1 base muta, you wont have enough gas. If you nat, it won't be fast enough. It won't work. Baneling rush is a kill, cripple or get owned strat.



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Aug 9 2010, 4:38 pm PearS Post #9



ok noted. I think vs Terran i'll auto build into fast mutalisks...unless of course my scouting drone tells me thats a bad idea.



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Aug 13 2010, 9:47 am MasterJohnny Post #10



I think if the Terran has a lot of air, mutas would probably suck.
Best way I think is to mass hydra and bring overseer and worm your way in.
Also I put overseer at watchtowers because I can poop out a changeling every once and a while to see things.



Philosophy deals with unanswered questions. Religion deals with unquestioned answers. I am a Mathematician

Aug 13 2010, 3:43 pm BeDazed Post #11



You can rush zerg air. Zerg air always comes faster than T air. If you do get Z air, get 6~7 of them. (With nat obviously.) You'll have to block the T's early marauder rush. Or you're screwed. But if you do get your mutas airborne, then you can do some damage. However, try not to lose them -_- Muta prices are really high, and each of them are valuable if you put them with ground forces. So just harass, if they do have formidable air defense, just lightly pressure your opponent. Rather, if they do feel pressured by the mutas, they will create vikings. By which you can allocate your resources to other things, such as tech, roaches, or more hydras.



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Aug 13 2010, 3:44 pm Syphon Post #12



As soon as they've walled off, start getting map control. Fast expansions, creeping, etc.

Diversify your tech so you can quickly respond to their pushes while you get Overseers to scout them. Once you have a few Overseers, don't just scout with them - Use them. You see what kind of build they're going, and Contaminate their most important structures. You delay their build 30 seconds, and now you can know where you want to specialise to counter it.

Are they 1-1-1? Get Mutas Ling Infestor.

MMM? Baneling/Infestor/Ultra.

Mass air with minor ground support? Mass Queens with Corruptors should do the job.

Meching? Lings, Ultras, Infestors.

Trying a contain? Broodlords.

Fast expanding? Shark roaches.

Main not well defended besides the wall? Mutas/Drops.

In any case, you should also have a few Infestors out to further slow pushes. Because you have creep all over the map, you can see when they start to push... Fungal growth slows them down ANOTHER 30 seconds. And ANOTHER.



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Aug 14 2010, 8:36 pm Amadi Post #13



I just lost again Terrans, again. The worst thing about this was the way this happened. This was a 4-player map where your natural is only accessible on ground through your own base.

Early on, I teched and expanded fast to my natural. Scouted and noticed he was making mostly marines and teching, with a heavily defended wall. In other words, he was turtling. Knowing that I couldn't break that down reliably, I started capitalizing on map control, spreading creep all over the place and expanding to some 4 places fast. I built Hydralisks, Infestors, some Mutalisks and advanced towards Broodlords. I also invested in a Nydus Network.

Then he just came out of his base with a lot of Thors, Marauders and Marines. I was able to beat that force but with heavy losses and a few buildings. I was fast to recover due to my multiple expansions, though. I noticed him moving to his natural and delayed him with Nydus Worms and Infestors a lot. He proceeded to attack with Banshees, which I took down with ease, and started building broodlords to finally break the turtle. Aerial combat took its' time and I decided just to contain him in there until his expansion had ran out of gold, which happened. He tried a few Viking attacks that I took down.

Finally, in the end though, he just came out of his base with guns blazing with Marines and Marauders, and a tank or dozen, in a giant ball. That ball then basically decimated 200 food worth of broodlords, zerglings, banelings, infestors and hydralisks while suffering basically no casualties from all this. That ball just ended everything, destroying what was probably six or seven hatcheries and all other buildings I had built.

What should have I done? More Banelings? Boomdrop him constantly to make him spend resources fast enough to be unable to finish 200 food worth of units? I tried to Nydus my way in but he had a lot of units in a small space, and built stuff around so I didn't have much space to spawn them anyway. Ultralisks, maybe? Destroy my own drones to make my army consist more of combat units?

TL;DR: Enemy contained to one expansion while I took everything else, he came out of his turtle with 200 food worth of units that I could just not stop and I got steamrolled. Advice?



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Aug 14 2010, 8:55 pm BiOAtK Post #14



Welcome to the BIOBALL.
There's not really a counter that I know of for Z. Sometimes P can get away with collosus, stalks, immortals, and ht.



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Aug 15 2010, 12:31 am BeDazed Post #15



@ Amadi.
Many mistakes. You're going Mutalisks against heavy rine build. Marines rip up mutalisks so bad, especially in late game with upgrades, that it's a loss even if you win the battle. It's similar to saying I WON AGAINST GOLIATHS WITH SCOUTS!! but with heavy losses... :(.... Guess what. In that one battle, you lost more resources than T did. Marine equates to a zergling. They're expendable. Unless it's your last layer of defense anyway.

If you saw MMM, then you should've gone roachdras with infestors. You should've also ended the game more quickly. 3-3 infantry on SC2 is better than a 3-3 zerg. -_-

Also, if you're having trouble using roachdra infestors (which is kind of tricky. you have to know when to strike. It's a hard one requiring several multitasks.), try mutabaneling/ling. It's not a rush though. You nat, tech to mutas, block off first strike with crawlers, then go baneling/muta. If he went heavy rines, then this is the right build. You need to upgrade 1 air armor before you go though.



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Aug 15 2010, 12:51 am Amadi Post #16



The issue is that he had used Thors, Vikings and Banshees before, and only used MMM to defend. I used flying units to harass, hence mutas.

I couldn't've ended the game earlier through a turtle with probably eighty-nine bunkers and walls thicker than my screen. There weren't even any place there for a goddamn Nydus wurm. I was trying to wear him off, since I had gazillion expansions and he only had one. Since he had previously only come out of the base with small groups of flying units and not the ground ones, that was what I expected. I wasn't expecting I needed to fight a sudden ball of infranry. Once it came out of there, which was about a minute or two after I had killed a patch of Vikings, I still had about all my food's worth of combat units dedicated to fighting air.

Should I have suicided a Ovie and started destroying my own army so I could have a better army composition? :|



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Aug 15 2010, 4:14 am BeDazed Post #17



If you can post a replay, it would be much more helpful. It would give me an idea of where your level of playing is at.



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Aug 24 2010, 4:54 pm Vi3t-X Post #18



To beat terran air, make hydralisks.
If terran has more air units than you have hydralisks, something is wrong. :P



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