Staredit Network > Forums > Null > Topic: Thoughts on morality, justice, and revenge.
Thoughts on morality, justice, and revenge.
Jul 2 2010, 10:44 am
By: DavidJCobb
Pages: 1 2 3 >
 

Jul 2 2010, 10:44 am DavidJCobb Post #1



I haven't slept, and I took my meds just after writing this. I know it's probably not SD quality, so I'm posting it here. Please tell me what you think -- does it sound intelligent? idiotic? fallacious?

I'm not necessarily looking to debate here. I just want to make sure it's coherent, that it makes sense, flows well, etc.. In other words, I'd like a review of the quality of writing.

(It's not a creative work, though, so I didn't put it in Media.)

The thoughts.




None.

Jul 2 2010, 12:01 pm NudeRaider Post #2

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Two wrongs make no right. Revenge is never a good deed, it just makes the victim feel better by also doing evil.
Punishment is not meant to balance the wrong that has been done, it's meant as a deterrent to prevent it from happening in the first place (best case) or at least to prevent it from happening again (resocialization, lifetime sentence).
Evil can only be balanced by good deeds like feeding the hungry (global scale) or by monetary compensation (towards the victim).

I think you're looking at the topic from the wrong side or misunderstood the justice system.




Jul 2 2010, 12:36 pm Azrael Post #3



NudeRaider, I think if you're going to say he's wrong, you should argue against some of his key points. For one, explain how the act of raping and murdering a small child should entitle you to a life of free food, shelter, and entertainment. Of course, it's not really free since it's being paid for by tax-payers like the parents of the child he raped and murdered.

As for the article, I agree 100%. The "justice" system is so flawed in favor of criminals it's insane. It's probably not a coincidence that the people who determine how the legal system works are also some of the most depraved scum in the population.

Ah well, there's a certain mindset that's been infecting the less intelligent population like a disease, spreading like a bubonic plague of the mind. To give a good example, within the last year I had a debate with someone where they literally argued, "If someone breaks your back window at 2 AM and enters your home, even though you have 2 vehicles sitting in the driveway so they know your family is home, and they are making their way up the stairs toward your young daughter's room, that if you should assault the intruder to stop them and they should die, you should be imprisoned for murder."

Really? How about, if you don't want to put your life at risk, you don't break into people's houses in the middle of the night.

I mean that's the kind of illogical thinking prevalent in today's society, so don't expect any number of logical arguments to make a dent. It's like fighting napalm with a bucket of water, or cancer with cold medicine. It's just too persistent to be dealt with in such a way, you will never convince someone like that they are wrong because it's clear they already completely lack any understanding of many basic concepts ranging from logic to empathy to reality.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 2 2010, 12:45 pm by Azrael.Wrath.




Jul 2 2010, 12:43 pm NudeRaider Post #4

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from name:Azrael.Wrath
NudeRaider, I think if you're going to say he's wrong, you should argue against some of his key points. For one, explain how the act of raping and murdering a small child should entitle you to a life of free food, shelter, and entertainment.
I think I did by explaining that "entertaining him" is not the goal of the justice system, but locking them away so they can't do any further harm.
It's not balancing the scale, it's preventing it from getting more imbalanced.

Ideally these people would be forced to do good deeds to balance the scale. But that's probably not practical.




Jul 2 2010, 3:25 pm Riney Post #5

Thigh high affectionado

Unless you have a bat costume laying around in your house, dont go seeking revenge.



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-- Updated as of December 2021 --

Jul 2 2010, 3:29 pm Norm Post #6



An age old technique that would improve your understanding of this scale would be to extensively study the opposition's case. It also implies that you are able to determine what is right, wrong, fair, etc perfectly - which, if you don't mind me calling you out - is unlikely for most people.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 6:31 pm EzDay281 Post #7



Quote
I mean that's the kind of illogical thinking prevalent in today's society, so don't expect any number of logical arguments to make a dent.
So, either you know this person's full and moral code, and have determined that his claim is logically opposed to it (in which case, what is his code?), or else you have come to the conclusion that fundamental values can be logically "wrong" or "right" (in which case, how?).
Quote
This scale measures the prevalence of good and evil, and right now, it's out of balance.
And how, exactly, are good and evil measured?
Quote
Revenge is when someone who was victimized despite being undeserving of pain -- in other words, an innocent person -- retaliates
So does disproportionate retaliation not justify reretaliation?
Quote
Revenge balances this scale. Justice, on the other hand, does not.
If revenge is considered just, then justice includes revenge. I'm confused by what you mean here.
I get the impression from the rest of your post that you mean "justice as implemented by the U.S. (and similar) justice system(s)", as your arguments against are based generally on the realities of the particular implementations of justice, but you also explicitly state that such matters are outside of this discussion when the discussion is regarding your ideas instead.
Quote
She is at the mercy of an uncaring, cynical, and likely oblivious jury
This would be a failing of the common juror, and/or of those presenting Jane's case to the jury. Are you saying that it is impossible or beyond reasonable likelihood for people to be improved, and that juries should be removed? (in which case, replaced with what?) Or that the problems with juries would be solved by or irrelevant to a more punitive system? (how?)
Quote
He now gets free food, shelter, and clothing, and even limited forms of entertainment
The issue that I see with prison is that it can't seem to decide whether it wants to serve punitive or rehabilitative purposes - though to be fair, I know very little of what actually goes on inside those concrete walls, being informed mostly by popular media, intensely biased yet similarly ignorant individuals, and hearing my father complain about the toilets.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 8:07 pm Azrael Post #8



Quote from EzDay281
Quote
I mean that's the kind of illogical thinking prevalent in today's society, so don't expect any number of logical arguments to make a dent.
So, either you know this person's full and moral code, and have determined that his claim is logically opposed to it (in which case, what is his code?), or else you have come to the conclusion that fundamental values can be logically "wrong" or "right" (in which case, how?).
This is exactly my point. You're obviously one of the people I referred to. Use all the convoluted pseudo-philosophical psychobabble you want to try to complicate the subject. Bottom-line, you rape or murder a random person on the street, you are evil. That is wrong. It's a pretty simplistic concept that anyone with any sort of intellect or smidgen of morality can understand without a full-length discussion beforehand.




Jul 2 2010, 8:34 pm Norm Post #9



Quote from name:Azrael.Wrath
Quote from EzDay281
Quote
I mean that's the kind of illogical thinking prevalent in today's society, so don't expect any number of logical arguments to make a dent.
So, either you know this person's full and moral code, and have determined that his claim is logically opposed to it (in which case, what is his code?), or else you have come to the conclusion that fundamental values can be logically "wrong" or "right" (in which case, how?).
This is exactly my point. You're obviously one of the people I referred to. Use all the convoluted pseudo-philosophical psychobabble you want to try to complicate the subject. Bottom-line, you rape or murder a random person on the street, you are evil. That is wrong. It's a pretty simplistic concept that anyone with any sort of intellect or smidgen of morality can understand without a full-length discussion beforehand.

What would be the case if people are SUPPOSE to die? No matter how many people tell you what morals are true, there is still no one who has the authority or the intelligence to be able to pass off moral code as fact.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 8:54 pm EzDay281 Post #10



Quote
This is exactly my point. You're obviously one of the people I referred to. Use all the convoluted pseudo-philosophical psychobabble you want to try to complicate the subject. Bottom-line, you rape or murder a random person on the street, you are evil. That is wrong. It's a pretty simplistic concept that anyone with any sort of intellect or smidgen of morality can understand without a full-length discussion beforehand.
You complained of a lack of "logic". All I'm doing is asking for you to demonstrate that you're any better (or, more fundamentally, that you understand what "logic" is. People throwing around that word, meaning only "reasoning that agrees with mine", is a pet peeve of mine).
Yes, "rap[ing] or murder[ing] a random person on the street" is bad. That's not the situation you were talking about.
Or:
Bottom-line, if you engage in blind, emotional indulgence in the concepts of "vengeance" and "two wrongs make a right", you are evil. That is wrong. It's a pretty simplistic concept that anyone with any sort of intellect or smidgen of morality can understand without a full-length discussion beforehand.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 10:28 pm DavidJCobb Post #11



Quote from DavidJCobb
I'm not necessarily looking to debate here. I just want to make sure it's coherent, that it makes sense, flows well, etc.. In other words, I'd like a review of the quality of writing.
...Even so, I am pleased that a debate has arisen. It means that I was at least mostly coherent.

Quote from NudeRaider
Evil can only be balanced by good deeds like feeding the hungry (global scale) or by monetary compensation (towards the victim).
"I just kidnapped, tortured, raped, and murdered the person you love. Here's a hundred thousand dollars. 'S all good, right? :awesome:"

Quote from EzDay281
And how, exactly, are good and evil measured?
By the impact that they have, which in turn is measured by the pain each inflicts and suffers upon/from the other. Obviously, there is no absolute measurement system for pain; my musings and writings were theoretical rather than empirical.

Quote from EzDay281
So does disproportionate retaliation not justify reretaliation?
One could make that argument, but I should hope that society at large would be forgiving toward the good guys, should said good guys go a little overboard. Seeing as the good guys are, ya know, good.

Quote from EzDay281
If revenge is considered just, then justice includes revenge. I'm confused by what you mean here.
I get the impression from the rest of your post that you mean "justice as implemented by the U.S. (and similar) justice system(s)", as your arguments against are based generally on the realities of the particular implementations of justice, but you also explicitly state that such matters are outside of this discussion when the discussion is regarding your ideas instead.
When I refer to "justice", I am referring to its implementation. My point is that justice is a watered-down perversion of revenge. And I only state that the proving of a person's guilt is outside the discussion.

Quote from EzDay281
This would be a failing of the common juror, and/or of those presenting Jane's case to the jury. Are you saying that it is impossible or beyond reasonable likelihood for people to be improved, and that juries should be removed? (in which case, replaced with what?) Or that the problems with juries would be solved by or irrelevant to a more punitive system? (how?)
I described the flaws of the jury system only as they related to Jane Doe's pain. The point I was making is that she is put in large amounts of pain by our hypothetical offender, only to be put in more pain by the justice system. When it's all finally over, she invariably suffers far worse than John Smith would ever be allowed to.

Quote from EzDay281
The issue that I see with prison is that it can't seem to decide whether it wants to serve punitive or rehabilitative purposes - though to be fair, I know very little of what actually goes on inside those concrete walls, being informed mostly by popular media, intensely biased yet similarly ignorant individuals, and hearing my father complain about the toilets.
Good point. Though seeing as people like sociopaths and sadists cannot really be rehabilitated at all, I should think that punishment should be a prison's primary aim.

Quote from Norm
What would be the case if people are SUPPOSE to die? No matter how many people tell you what morals are true, there is still no one who has the authority or the intelligence to be able to pass off moral code as fact.
Are you proposing that the innocent are fated to die and that we hence are unfit to morally judge those who bring about the deaths? Or am I completely misinterpreting your fairly ambiguous question?

Quote from EzDay281
Bottom-line, if you engage in blind, emotional indulgence in the concepts of "vengeance" and "two wrongs make a right", you are evil. That is wrong. It's a pretty simplistic concept that anyone with any sort of intellect or smidgen of morality can understand without a full-length discussion beforehand.
But the entire concept of "two wrongs make a right" supposes that the second wrong is, well, wrong. Personally, I think that if someone murders your spouse, and then you murder them, then you're not wrong. Why? Because that person committed an evil act, and hence stopped being innocent -- and it's only evil to harm those who do not deserve harm. In that case, it's a wrong plus a right -- a re-balancing of the scale.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 10:32 pm Azrael Post #12



Quote from DavidJCobb
But the entire concept of "two wrongs make a right" supposes that the second wrong is, well, wrong. Personally, I think that if someone murders your spouse, and then you murder them, then you're not wrong. Why? Because that person committed an evil act, and hence stopped being innocent -- and it's only evil to harm those who do not deserve harm. In that case, it's a wrong plus a right -- a re-balancing of the scale.
Exactly. This is the correct answer for those who are not morally corrupt.




Jul 2 2010, 10:52 pm Demented Shaman Post #13



Someone cite Naruto vs Pain.
Collapsable Box


Collapsable Box


Collapsable Box




None.

Jul 2 2010, 11:10 pm EzDay281 Post #14



Quote
Exactly. This is the correct answer for those who are not morally corrupt.
No it's not. You're wrong, and that's a fact, and I know that you eat kittens for breakfast you kitten-eater.
*plugs ears*
LA LA LA...
Quote
One could make that argument, but I should hope that society at large would be forgiving toward the good guys, should said good guys go a little overboard. Seeing as the good guys are, ya know, good.
Which fails to take into account subjectivity of values, ignorance of those judging of past evil deeds, and the fact that giving into emotional "REVEEEEEENGE!!!" tends to result in irrationality and poor judgment.
Quote
When I refer to "justice", I am referring to its implementation. My point is that justice is a watered-down perversion of revenge. And I only state that the proving of a person's guilt is outside the discussion.
Except that it's not revenge at all. It's rehabilitative, control/isolating, and preventive in the best case, and negative reinforcement.
Quote
I described the flaws of the jury system only as they related to Jane Doe's pain. The point I was making is that she is put in large amounts of pain by our hypothetical offender, only to be put in more pain by the justice system. When it's all finally over, she invariably suffers far worse than John Smith would ever be allowed to.
But again, your solution still requires some means of determination, which involves a correction of the jury (which would solve the issue you illustrated), or something better than jury entirely (and one that is exclusive against what you are referring to as "justice").
Quote
Good point. Though seeing as people like sociopaths and sadists cannot really be rehabilitated at all, I should think that punishment should be a prison's primary aim.
Which is unfortunate, but a minority. (By my standards, almost everyone around me is rather crazy, morally speaking)
In which case, prison (or psychiatric wards) serve to hold insane people, whereas revenge serves to piss them off.
Quote
But the entire concept of "two wrongs make a right" supposes that the second wrong is, well, wrong. Personally, I think that if someone murders your spouse, and then you murder them, then you're not wrong. Why? Because that person committed an evil act, and hence stopped being innocent -- and it's only evil to harm those who do not deserve harm. In that case, it's a wrong plus a right -- a re-balancing of the scale.
This is in disagreement with...
Quote
By the impact that they have, which in turn is measured by the pain each inflicts and suffers upon/from the other. Obviously, there is no absolute measurement system for pain; my musings and writings were theoretical rather than empirical.
It appears to me that your answer to "how are good and evil measured" was incomplete. Am I missing something?

Unfortunately, it appears that we have a disagreement of, as I have mentioned before, fundamental values, where logic can no longer dictate correct or false.
I believe in hedonism; that pain can only be, but is always, morally justified if available reasoning shows favourable odds of highest gains in good across a system, without regard for who it's good for. (if it could be absolutely proved that a sadist would gain more pleasure from my pain than I would displeasure, and that it would affect absolutely nothing else in the world, then it would be morally correct for me to suffer. Fortunately for me, those two are very, very unlikely and difficult to prove. :P)
From what you have stated, it appears that by your values, the evil of pain is divided by the weight of sin of its sufferer; that pain becomes less evil as one approaches greater sinfulness than innocence and that pain eventually becomes good.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 2 2010, 11:20 pm by EzDay281.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 11:22 pm DavidJCobb Post #15



Quote from EzDay281
Which fails to take into account subjectivity of values, ignorance of those judging of past evil deeds, and the fact that giving into emotional "REVEEEEEENGE!!!" tends to result in irrationality and poor judgment.
Torture, rape, and murder are evil. What's so subjective about that? Rape even has the benefit of being impossible to justify.

Quote from EzDay281
Except that it's not revenge at all. It's rehabilitation, control, and in the best case, preventive.
"You take away the life of an innocent, we take away your freedom." It's an epic fail attempt at revenge, but revenge nonetheless -- retaliation against someone for what they did to you.

Quote from EzDay281
But again, your solution still requires some means of determination, which involves a correction of the jury (which would solve the issue you illustrated), or something better than jury entirely (and one that is exclusive against what you are referring to as "justice").
We could very well keep the jury system. The only reason I ever even mentioned it was because it is one of the inequities between the differing experiences of Jane and John.

Quote from EzDay281
Which is unfortunate, but a minority. (By my standards, almost everyone around me is rather crazy, morally speaking)
In which case, prison (or psychiatric wards) serve to hold insane people, whereas revenge serves to piss them off.
Actually, I think that inflicting physical pain on a serial rapist would scare them more than anger them. Of course, I think the justified punishment for serial rape is a dunking of the offender's genitals into a vat of hydrochloric acid... You may have other ideas that are less of a deterrent.

Quote from EzDay281
This is in disagreement with...
Not at all. If someone kills your spouse, and you kill them in revenge, then you've made them suffer and helped to re-balance the scales. The impact that you have on them becomes closer to the impact they have on you. (Of course, this takes physical pain only into account; for a closer-to-perfect re-balancing, the hypothetical you would have to inflict extra physical pain to compensate for the psychological pain hypothetical-you would've experienced in such an example.)

EDIT TO ACCOUNT FOR YOUR EDIT:
Quote from EzDay281
From what you have stated, it appears that by your values, the evil of pain is divided by the weight of sin of its sufferer; that pain becomes less evil as one approaches greater sinfulness than innocence and that pain eventually becomes good.
Assuming I'm reading this right, yes, that's what I'm saying. The evil of pain's sufferer determines the evil of the pain. Evil sufferer, good pain. Good sufferer, evil pain.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 11:42 pm EzDay281 Post #16



Quote
Torture, rape, and murder are evil. What's so subjective about that? Rape even has the benefit of being impossible to justify.
But how evil? How much is it weighted by performing X evil deed and Y evil deed under Z and A circumstances?
Quote
"You take away the life of an innocent, we take away your freedom." It's an epic fail attempt at revenge, but revenge nonetheless -- retaliation against someone for what they did to you.
Except that, again, it's not revenge to begin with.
"Revenge" implies that the value comes either from "balancing the scales", or from the pleasure derived from inflicting it. Removal of freedom serves to make people think that perhaps they'd best not do something again, and/or to make it less likely for them to in the interim.
Quote
Actually, I think that inflicting physical pain on a serial rapist would scare them more than anger them.
Fear and anger are both excited, negative emotions, and such things tend to bleed together, especially as sanity goes down.
Quote
Not at all. [...] helped to re-balance the scales.
Um...
Quote
By the impact that they have, which in turn is measured by the pain each inflicts and suffers upon/from the other. Obviously, there is no absolute measurement system for pain; my musings and writings were theoretical rather than empirical.
Unless you mean that that slash between "upon" and "from" refers to mathematical division, then the two do indeed disagree, as it says nothing about "scales" or "balance" or indeed any factors other than amount of pain involved.
If that slash does refer to division, then you wrote it in a rather unintuitive manner, as usually there needs be some precedent or context (putting other parts of the thought into equational form, say) to say it, considering that slashes have another meaning in common English. :P

edit:
Quote
Assuming I'm reading this right, yes, that's what I'm saying. The evil of pain's sufferer determines the evil of the pain. Evil sufferer, good pain. Good sufferer, evil pain.
And interpreting this intentionally too literally for purposes of joke, a morally good sadist by your philosophy would in his right mind be able to indulge as much as he likes in his cravings so long as it is possible for and he allows himself to suffer equally to his infliction by the hands of his victims. :P

On comparing the two philosophies:
Assuming they are both followed absolutely perfectly by their respective civilizations, they both result in the maximum amount of good physically possible for a system.
On one hand, however, as reality is introduced - as omniscience is eliminated and reduced, as blind emotion and sadism and mistakes in judgment and disagreements in values come in, the revenge philosophy more quickly falls way from "maximum possible happiness". Of course, by the revenge philosophy, "happy" is only a factor of "good", so this isn't even a problem for revengeists.
On the other hand, hedonism only works if the people involved subscribe to it, and humans instinctively do not; humans tend to subscribe to the revenge philosophy, and so revenge can be better implemented with less departure from reality.

This is as things appear to me.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jul 2 2010, 11:55 pm by EzDay281.



None.

Jul 2 2010, 11:56 pm DavidJCobb Post #17



Quote from EzDay281
Unless you mean that that slash between "upon" and "from" refers to mathematical division
It does not. 0_o

Quote from EzDay281
And interpreting this intentionally too literally for purposes of joke, a morally good sadist by your philosophy would in his right mind be able to indulge as much as he likes in his cravings so long as it is possible for and he allows himself to suffer equally to his infliction by the hands of his victims.
Clever. :P But the sadist would still be morally bad. But once he receives his comeuppance, the morality of mankind itself is no longer affected by his actions.

When someone does something evil, the morality of mankind itself -- good's vertical position on the scale -- is lowered. When that evil is punished -- with an equal amount of pain -- then the someone is still evil, but mankind itself has no longer been dragged down into the squalid depths of depravity along with him.



None.

Jul 3 2010, 12:05 am EzDay281 Post #18



Quote
It does not. 0_o
Then you stated that evil is measured by pain involved.
The most direct interpretation of that is that "evil = pain". Your later statement is that "evil = pain/sin".
As the two are different, it is correct to say that they do not agree. :P

Quote
But once he receives his comeuppance, the morality of mankind itself is no longer affected by his actions.
... wait, so you're telling me that you do believe that as a sadist, you literally could morally neutrally follow that strategy?



None.

Jul 3 2010, 12:07 am NudeRaider Post #19

We can't explain the universe, just describe it; and we don't know whether our theories are true, we just know they're not wrong. >Harald Lesch

Quote from DavidJCobb
"I just kidnapped, tortured, raped, and murdered the person you love. Here's a hundred thousand dollars. 'S all good, right? :awesome:"
I just kidnapped, tortured, raped, and murdered the person you love. Now you kill me. 'S all good, right? :awesome:

Actually you bring up a good point here. Some evil deeds cannot be undone, neither by revenge, nor by compensating or good deeds.
Still there's no gain in revenge, however the money can pay therapists etc. that help you get back to a normal life, so part of the evil has been balanced.
Besides, money was just an arbitrary example. Theoretically there's many more way to perform good deeds. For example forced labor to help the victim or other people. And it might be just as satisfactory to know the bad person is going to spend his whole life doing things he hates and that at least others may benefit from his work now (or even yourself).




Jul 3 2010, 12:11 am DavidJCobb Post #20



Quote from EzDay281
Then you stated that evil is measured by pain involved.
The most direct interpretation of that is that "evil = pain". Your later statement is that "evil = pain/sin".
As the two are different, it is correct to say that they do not agree. :P
One of the added benefits of this discussion: it helps me detect ambiguities and inconsistently-expressed opinions within my writings, and correct them. I think in a little bit, I may write and post a second draft. I've been basically trying to say the latter, rather than the former.

Quote from EzDay281
... wait, so you're telling me that you do believe that as a sadist, you literally could morally neutrally follow that strategy?
No.

Once the sadist commits the act, the sadist is evil. And once that act is met with retribution, mankind as a whole is redeemed. The sadist is still evil, but his actions no longer reflect on the goodness or villainy of mankind itself. Kinda like how students at a school have to behave well on field trips because they represent that school.



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