Staredit Network > Forums > SC1 Map Showcase > Topic: Desert Strike Night - Fixed
Desert Strike Night - Fixed
May 11 2010, 10:37 am
By: Lanthanide
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Jun 9 2012, 5:25 am Sacrieur Post #961

Still Napping

I haven't had any problems with T. Do you have any specific examples?



None.

Jun 10 2012, 12:09 am HSL... Post #962



Haha I really don't remember when was the last time I lost to a Terran in 1v1. (unless I'm also playing as Terran which is a coin toss) There are so many abusive strategies like Dark Swarm + Ultra or going all Corsair + Scout and win. Terran can be pretty good in 2v2 or 3v3 using its inexpensive special and supporting its ally with siege tanks, but I have to admit it is un-winnable in 1v1 match assuming both players know what their doing.



None.

Jun 10 2012, 1:41 am Lanthanide Post #963



Yeah, 1v1 games are pretty much impossible to balance, and so I don't really try. Largely that's because I very rarely play 1v1 so don't have much first hand experience on what needs changing. But SC's limitations really make it difficult to change terran in a way that they need to be. If I could change unit sizes, weapon damage types and cooldown then it would be significantly easier to balance, but unfortunately I can't. Also most people seem to enjoy 2v2 the most so I put good 2v2 (and 3v3) balance ahead of 1v1. I think the balance for team games is pretty good, perhaps the best of any DS variant?



None.

Jun 10 2012, 12:31 pm GGmano Post #964

Mr.Pete-Tong

Quote from Lanthanide
Yeah, 1v1 games are pretty much impossible to balance, and so I don't really try. Largely that's because I very rarely play 1v1 so don't have much first hand experience on what needs changing. But SC's limitations really make it difficult to change terran in a way that they need to be. If I could change unit sizes, weapon damage types and cooldown then it would be significantly easier to balance, but unfortunately I can't. Also most people seem to enjoy 2v2 the most so I put good 2v2 (and 3v3) balance ahead of 1v1. I think the balance for team games is pretty good, perhaps the best of any DS variant?

Hi lanthanide, im sorry to disagree with you. I find 1v1 games as easy/hard to balance as 2v2 or 3v3 only thing making the difference in the balance 1v1 vs 2/3v2/3 is that beeing in 2v2 you are able to do more specials. For that reason the specials needs to be more even if u want the balance to be same no matter amount players, i can at some point agree with u on that problem since counter and goin first and so makes more parametres to balance. I tryid ur lastest version last night and i didnt like how specials wins the game rather than doin some tactical moves with making units at the right timings and these unit vs other units and gassing at the right momemts. I did play alot of my own new version which tend to fairly balanced (i have only tested the brood edition couple times more units harder to balance can also agree with you on that). I also played the ds angel which i find advanced but was to me good balance. In your map i was protoss vs zerg. Same as in mine its hard for protoss to cope with mass amount of units that zerg have tho in the end protoss wins zerg cause of corsairs. I put a maximum on corsairs/carriers and dark archon in my brood version cause these are really powerfull units that can turn a match up side down. Instead i made protoss alot better for fighting against mass lings and hydras and marines by given protoss more units of zealots and dragoons. You should try out my versions with a open mind, and your welcome to steal any of the features that i put in the map. The difference in my versions on team and 1v1 is team is its faster cause of the abillity to make more specials.

If the unit balance aint balanced in 1v1 games then i dont think its much more balanced in team games (i have only tryid your lastest map in 1v1, the earlier versions i played i think protoss was overpowered)

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 10 2012, 1:10 pm by GGmano.



Trust is everything

Jun 10 2012, 6:15 pm HSL... Post #965



In 1v1 setting, Protoss is arguably the strongest in Lanthanide's game..
There are some Zergs very occasionally beat Protoss by significantly massing up and spawning 400 units at once, but the Protoss can still beat Zerg if Protoss produces 250~300 units at once composed of primarily Stargate units and Templar units.



None.

Jun 11 2012, 1:00 am Underworld Post #966



Make terrans dropship a killer, or double the heal range

increase wraith life/armor
make bc a bit cheaper
lower gol price a bit


these may help out mass vs toss/zerg when they get slaughtered

im in a 2v2 now with zerg/toss vs 2 terran...spored air corsair = toast.

they have 2 killing heros, we have zero..make some changes lanth please...take a few hours off D3 <3

to help.. make ND 4 nuke-able .... add dmg to nuke or reduce ND life ....

5-6 nukes on a double terran team is horrible... we waste that amount that could be on temp since we cant push

oh, other suggestions...and stuff i notice

toss or zerg special at 18 seconds, it hits the other person before all of their spawn spawns, like say 250 spawnable, 100 spawns then the 150 would filter...but with mc/infest it stops at 100 right?

wtith terran, it still filters to 250 ... that might help ?

plus 1 of our bc's missed the ND..

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 11 2012, 1:33 am by DevliN. Reason: Don't triple post. Use EDIT instead.



None.

Jun 11 2012, 1:35 am HSL... Post #967



Zerg/Protoss is usually the strongest combination so give yourself some slack.



None.

Jun 11 2012, 2:23 am Underworld Post #968



even in zerg/ter , ter/pro matchups its weak ..



None.

Jun 11 2012, 3:24 am Sacrieur Post #969

Still Napping

Quote from HSL...
In 1v1 setting, Protoss is arguably the strongest in Lanthanide's game..
There are some Zergs very occasionally beat Protoss by significantly massing up and spawning 400 units at once, but the Protoss can still beat Zerg if Protoss produces 250~300 units at once composed of primarily Stargate units and Templar units.

Z has arguably the most powerful special abilities. Acid splash + plague are just plain anti-deathball.



None.

Jun 11 2012, 8:37 am HSL... Post #970



Quote
Z has arguably the most powerful special abilities. Acid splash + plague are just plain anti-deathball.

If you really, really make a lot of corsairs, Protoss wins. If it's like 100 devourers vs. 150 corsairs, the devourers should win, but if it becomes like 150 devourers vs. 225 corsairs, there's a point that corsairs just dominate it all.



None.

Jun 11 2012, 4:41 pm staxx Post #971



Quote from GGmano
Quote from Lanthanide
Yeah, 1v1 games are pretty much impossible to balance, and so I don't really try. Largely that's because I very rarely play 1v1 so don't have much first hand experience on what needs changing. But SC's limitations really make it difficult to change terran in a way that they need to be. If I could change unit sizes, weapon damage types and cooldown then it would be significantly easier to balance, but unfortunately I can't. Also most people seem to enjoy 2v2 the most so I put good 2v2 (and 3v3) balance ahead of 1v1. I think the balance for team games is pretty good, perhaps the best of any DS variant?

Hi lanthanide, im sorry to disagree with you. I find 1v1 games as easy/hard to balance as 2v2 or 3v3 only thing making the difference in the balance 1v1 vs 2/3v2/3 is that beeing in 2v2 you are able to do more specials. For that reason the specials needs to be more even if u want the balance to be same no matter amount players, i can at some point agree with u on that problem since counter and goin first and so makes more parametres to balance. I tryid ur lastest version last night and i didnt like how specials wins the game rather than doin some tactical moves with making units at the right timings and these unit vs other units and gassing at the right momemts. I did play alot of my own new version which tend to fairly balanced (i have only tested the brood edition couple times more units harder to balance can also agree with you on that). I also played the ds angel which i find advanced but was to me good balance. In your map i was protoss vs zerg. Same as in mine its hard for protoss to cope with mass amount of units that zerg have tho in the end protoss wins zerg cause of corsairs. I put a maximum on corsairs/carriers and dark archon in my brood version cause these are really powerfull units that can turn a match up side down. Instead i made protoss alot better for fighting against mass lings and hydras and marines by given protoss more units of zealots and dragoons. You should try out my versions with a open mind, and your welcome to steal any of the features that i put in the map. The difference in my versions on team and 1v1 is team is its faster cause of the abillity to make more specials.

If the unit balance aint balanced in 1v1 games then i dont think its much more balanced in team games (i have only tryid your lastest map in 1v1, the earlier versions i played i think protoss was overpowered)

I would also agree with GG. If you're not playing 1v1's on any DS map then you're puting yourself at a disadvantage for unit knowledge. Unit knowledge is key to balancing the game as i'm sure you are aware. Without a balance in 1v1 scenario, then the balance would be off in 2v2/3v3 scenario's as well. For instance, what happens if all 3 top get terran and all 3 bottom get toss? Whichever race was OP in the 1v1 scenario would be OP in the 2v2/3v3 scenario i just mentioned. While I personally havent played any recent versions of DS Night, from my past experience on earlier versions every game i played resulted in a spec war. I don't know if this is intentional, but from my point of view whats the point in having a better spawn than your enemy if it's just going to end with spec's anyways? I personally feel that the game should have the opportunity to be won tactically based on builds (a more skillful win). Anyways, I also encourage you to check out some of the versions released solely for the non-expansion as there are quite a few which have a great balance to them.



None.

Jun 11 2012, 6:39 pm GGmano Post #972

Mr.Pete-Tong

Im also gonna quote a sentence one guy from sen told me on the shoutbox. i was telling him that havin all tree races all players make up the best balance, then he said not if one type of units is stronger than other kinds. Also was speaking with nuderaider about how he balanced hes map at the very start. He told me that he adjusted only units amount/price until he did find all units to be even(not that u cant go a one type build would be good) he meant that he didnt want if 1 race could mass out a single type of units and win the game that way. He made a good job on doin that. --- but "i think" the dark swarm abillity changes to much for to many units(even if setting a max on defillers swarm causes air to do 0 dmg aswell as range units. This is either good for the zerg vs terran or bad for zerg vs toss. The reason why i disabled the swarm. blizzard made swarm for the balance of melee games. computers cant just quit attacking with units that do 0 dmg and walk pass to attack the temple, in melee games u can move ur units away from the swarm so they start doin dmg again. the reason why such ablilies is to good in mass vs mass game controled by computers. Its same with disturbtion web if enough cosairs, clearly not only me havin knowlegde of that. Im not here to disjudge your maps balance, rather i wanna give you input on what you can change. I disabled the swarm completly and put a low amount max on corsairs. Im sure nuderaider was havin same trouble when he was balancing ds, only i think he decided to leave the it on and added specials to the game so the game was not only depending on unit balance (he rather have all spells that blizzard made on and make some other way around the problem) "with Nuke terran could be able to win the game" (im not sure on all this is what nuderaider thought but im assuming it). if u dont like disable abillities as swarm and disturbtion web, then you need focus on balance the map on time passed/amount units and time passed for beeing able to kill the temple with specials. --- but not all ds players like ds that way as staxx mentioned --- its all up to you. this would be my best input i could give you to your map. Havent opened your map and looked your triggers but from knowing how triggers work and what actions they do to units. you really made a good job on effects and adding the share upgrades is cool idea (i do belive its not to noob friendly tho) also wish it would be possibel making the com doin weapon armor upgrades to higher levels than 3/3/3. I for some time ago used like 2 weeks on trying the computer to do upgrades with ai scripts. When i came here to sen and saw nuderaider (THE CREATER OF MY FAVORITE MAP) i instant msg him if he knew how to make com not only do tech upgrades but also armor weapon upgrades. He gave me link and told its limit on 3/3/3 and i was like damn wasted so much trying get that to work.. xd.

last i wanna say im aware of how much time u have been using on cleaning up and fixing queen gambits triggers. as i used hes map to do my map( i made like 30 different types of ds versions from queen gambits map. when i was new to making maps i didnt know what all those triggers did, i learned bit by bit and it took me nearly one year to find out how much wait actions can cause of bug (gambit must have tested triggers over n over for a thousand times) since moving one of hes triggers up or down would cause all ai scripts to not function. ------ If i just have know the existence of sen------ lol my troubles had been solved alot faster. "to the point" in my map thers only 10-20 triggers left from original thats still is as gambit made em. you know how much work that is. Reading this post lets me know that you have been doin same. And For That You Should Have Huge Credit. I think Ds is one of the best strategy maps on Battle.net, especily for people not beeing able to do 200 apms. Making ds better was what i wanted and im sure you wanted same. The reason why i put my time in sharing my knowledge with you.

For the end i wanna ask you if you have played ds angel? and what you think of it?
(at the time i saw ds angel post i was like damn that guy must have seen ds features as i did. Alot of same features that i made is in ds angel. I could add even more had the idea of a shop aswell that ds angel map has. But from knowledge by older edits i made - its not the amount of stuff you can do that makes ds good its more the pace, the balance and the effects of doin simple strategies. i my self likes to play my ds map with all hero features off and all game speed on normal. excuse me if i have bad english typing (its not my national language).

EDIT:
Quote from HSL...
In 1v1 setting, Protoss is arguably the strongest in Lanthanide's game..
There are some Zergs very occasionally beat Protoss by significantly massing up and spawning 400 units at once, but the Protoss can still beat Zerg if Protoss produces 250~300 units at once composed of primarily Stargate units and Templar units.
when i was testing lanthanides map i had precise that xperiance. Was really hard for me to get a push goin and when i started push towards enemy i saw enemy minerals at 10k knowing what would happen now. What i didnt like was that this came so early i had only like 10 stargates 6-8 templar archives and 6-8 citadels --- maelstorm really good spell vs zerg units i rememer doin the mindcontrol upgrade late wanted see the precise change effect from dark chon doin double amount maelstorm and not using mindcontrol, its sad that u cant change tech upgrades backwards ^^ like mindcontrol is better when low amount units but not really to good when alot of units is on field, mindcontrol is abit same as queen spawnbroodlings. units beeing behind in mass gets slowed down cause attack the made broods or the mindcontroled unit, queens effect is also best when mass is still low ---

my enemy didnt have 400 hyd/lings but he had alot of guards/devours and minerals 10k. i was now aware that if i didnt want my temple to die from infestationdmg made over n over again, i would need rush to kill hes temple b4 he would kill mine. he made hes first infestation and killed my push totally plus gettin a huge guard stack= hard dmg on temple plus very hard for protoss to push back again. Had to use my second boom(first was used on silo) then i also was able to special he still alot infront me on minerals tho. this is where i made stupid move tho wouldnt have been able win no matter what. i keept seeing hes mineral goin up n up with my really slow push thinking i would have to hurry and hes 2 booms left(also used hes on silo). i made mindcontrol to speed up my dmg on hes temple. my special made like 2 bars on hes temple then the infest came and made tottaly same effect as first time. My temple receving huge amount dmg i had to use last boom if not die. then i wouldnt do same bad thing as i did first so i keept leeting my units to hes temple when the was near temple he infest i counter, and was all good until he infested again and i lacked 200 minerals to counter that... so at the time i made toss spec my temple had 2 red bars and was dead b4 the toss spec did fire. At that point i ofcourse knew it was bad of me doin toss spec first but only did it once and i made 3-4 bars dmg hes temple. Then i knew it wouldnt have mattered what i had done, i maybe would have been able to do max half temple dmg, if i didnt make bad move with toss spec first so he could counter. So yeah didnt really like how that game ended. My strategi from start was to gain income while letting him push(i dont think i would have gotten push even if i didnt gas). so i whent strait 4 gas and pushed him back as soon as push i gassed more that way i got full gas without him making dmg on my temple. I donno if that was good strategi but seeing how much mineral he was able to save up b4 i had my push makes me think it was best strategi i could have done. Rather for us both beeing full gas without him making dmg temple than for me beeing 4 gas and him beeing 6 gas.

by the way lanthanide, what kinda effect is the arbiter effect doin? Your making some kind of effect on arbiters does it do anything(heals?). Is the effect dark templars beeing killed? Anyway the effect looks cool.. xd

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 11 2012, 8:45 pm by NudeRaider. Reason: merged posts. please use edit instead of reposting



Trust is everything

Jun 12 2012, 9:29 am HSL... Post #973



GGmano: if you ever play on ICCup, we could play a game or two and I can lend you some tactics as a Protoss that seem to be effective against Zerg players 70~80% of the time. To put it in a nutshell, it's about the composition of the units for each spawn. For example, if you figure you need 40 Stargates and 30 Templar Archive to fight and win, don't do something like building all 40 Stargates first then the Templar Archives unless it's absolutely appropriate because that ruins the composition of your army for most of the spawns.



None.

Jun 12 2012, 11:45 pm GGmano Post #974

Mr.Pete-Tong

Quote from HSL...
GGmano: if you ever play on ICCup, we could play a game or two and I can lend you some tactics as a Protoss that seem to be effective against Zerg players 70~80% of the time. To put it in a nutshell, it's about the composition of the units for each spawn. For example, if you figure you need 40 Stargates and 30 Templar Archive to fight and win, don't do something like building all 40 Stargates first then the Templar Archives unless it's absolutely appropriate because that ruins the composition of your army for most of the spawns.

i was using a unit mix in my spawns when i tested it.. its like doin doin 6 gateway and then couple goon then more gateway again(at the start of game) chon more goon and so adding up unit mix as a spawn.. only nubs is doin 1 gateway 1 goon 1 stargate/templar then adding up bit by bit(if this way of adding up unit mix is good in a map - then air/tech units is to strong)



Trust is everything

Jun 13 2012, 4:42 am HSL... Post #975



Yes, I believe that is called the snowball effect. Of course your zealot/goon will get pushed if you simply make zealots while he is teching up for higher quality units. You have the quantity, but please do realize zealots melt against archons. Good thing he he didn't mix in a reaver or two for each spawn because that would've dissolved your army even faster.

But I'll cut you some slack. The snowball effect is very prominent in mirror match-ups and it is almost impossible to turn the game in your favor unless you just boom it and have a fresh start.



None.

Jun 13 2012, 5:09 am staxx Post #976



@ HSL... GG is far from a noob at DS, generally if you're good at one DS you're good at all of them. You can find us on US West if you're interested.



None.

Jun 13 2012, 6:44 am HSL... Post #977



I have no access to US West as I used to have a CD and lost it. And when I bought a new computer, I thought it was a waste purchase another Starcraft CD so I play in the ICCup for free..

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jun 13 2012, 6:53 am by HSL....



None.

Jun 14 2012, 1:57 am Underworld Post #978



Science vessels need a buff - more life/armor and WAY BETTER AI

redic how they move



drop ship has 4 armor and 145 life... mothership 6000 shield + w/e life and has 16 armor? ?whaaaaat




another edit..

oh, other suggestions...and stuff i notice

toss or zerg special at 18 seconds, it hits the other person before all of their spawn spawns, like say 250 spawnable, 100 spawns then the 150 would filter...but with mc/infest it stops at 100 right?

wtith terran, it still filters to 250 ...


Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jun 14 2012, 2:14 am by Underworld.



None.

Jun 14 2012, 6:34 am HSL... Post #979



I thought Vessel movement AI is the same as Overlord or Observer.



None.

Jun 14 2012, 7:11 pm staxx Post #980



It should be. I'm sure Lanthanides triggers are set so detectors patrol to a location centered on cloaked units. If you're implying that science vessels just die too quickly and dont get a chance to do their job as a detector then perhaps lanthanide should look into adding scanner sweep for terran.



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