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[11:17 pm]
Zoan -- Wow I sound like a hick with those typos lol
[11:17 pm]
Sand Wraith -- payne
payne shouted: Sand Wraith you are saying it is impossible that the human race can come up with a sustainable way of living?
No, I mean that sustainability will always be a factor to consider. It's a goal to attain. You never "achieve" sustainability without constantly keeping an eye over yourself and it.
[11:16 pm]
Fire_Kame -- Roy
Roy shouted: Will there really be a scarcity problem when we have robots manufacturing robots to automine nearby asteroids?
what's going to happen when robots are considered sentient beings worthy of civil rights, and as such we're all considered racists for using Siri for gags?
[11:16 pm]
Zoan -- Sand Wraith
Sand Wraith shouted: Zoan Sigh, that's wrong. Communism doesn't need to assume something that fantastical. Most people aren't lazy enough for laziness to be a problem. Capitalism doesn't even particularly spur innovation. Having basic necessities met and providing time to play and experiment to people is more than enough to drive work and labour, amongst other things such as personal and social fulfillment.
I didn't mean everyone working doing whatever, I meant those in power. For communism to work well, it assumes those in power, or those who are running it, are good. Also, imagine working and make 100 bucks, while your neighbor decides to skip out on work that day. At the end of the day, if this was communism, half of what you just made go to him. So now he got 50 bucks for doing nothing, and thinks to himself "Hey, this is great! I never have to do anything again!" while you think "Seriously? I guess I'm not gonna do anything if everyone who does nothing gets 50 bucks." Then the next day no one works and nothing gets done. Now imagine everyone doing that.
[11:16 pm]
payne -- Sand Wraith
Sand Wraith shouted: payne I meant in terms of sustainability. Sustainability is the problem. Finite resources is the source of the problem.
you are saying it is impossible that the human race can come up with a sustainable way of living?
[11:15 pm]
Sand Wraith -- So yeah, realistically, I think we'll have to deal with Earth, but given the plan for the manned mission to Mars, I'm actually pretty hopeful.
[11:15 pm]
Roy -- Hydrogen is a fuel source.
[11:15 pm]
Sand Wraith -- But you still have to cross vast distances and transport the fuel.
[11:15 pm]
Sand Wraith -- You'll need some sort of fuel source. If you can find the proper fuels on said asteroids, I guess it wouldn't be.
[11:14 pm]
Roy -- Will there really be a scarcity problem when we have robots manufacturing robots to automine nearby asteroids?
[11:13 pm]
Fire_Kame -- Like I said, once we invent the replicator we will live in post scarcity :awesome:
[11:12 pm]
Sand Wraith -- payne
payne shouted: Sand Wraith I don't see how you can prove that it will "always" be a problem.
I meant in terms of sustainability. Sustainability is the problem. Finite resources is the source of the problem.
[11:12 pm]
Roy -- TL;DR: payne can't properly defend communism, so please stop talking about it in front of him.
[11:11 pm]
payne -- zoan, TLDR: "stop debating about communism. It's fucking dumb to do so. Debate about socialism instead: it's a much more practical debate."
[11:11 pm]
Zoan -- Aight reply time, lol
[11:11 pm]
Zoan -- BACK
[11:10 pm]
payne -- I thought enlighten meant furthering of knowledge
[11:10 pm]
Fire_Kame -- what would you call it?
[11:10 pm]
payne -- (if we can say that one can be "converted" to a political system)
[11:10 pm]
Fire_Kame -- You said yourself you are here to enlighten us.
[11:10 pm]
payne -- I wasn't trying to convert people to communism. :(
[11:09 pm]
payne -- trying to convert?
[11:09 pm]
Roy -- What preachers do.
[11:09 pm]
payne -- preaching = ?
[11:09 pm]
Fire_Kame -- public preaching based on an ideal.
[11:09 pm]
payne -- anyways, conclusion: stop debating about communism. It's fucking dumb to do so. Debate about socialism instead: it's a much more practical debate.
[11:08 pm]
payne -- define evangelist?
[11:06 pm]
payne -- and when it comes about practical socialist revolution, then the discussion can get quite deep and interesting
[11:06 pm]
payne -- idealist debates are quite worthless
[11:06 pm]
payne -- but I felt the need to enlighten the people here about this distinction so that they know about it in the futur
[11:05 pm]
Roy -- Socialism is the way to go, though. UBI is the future.
[11:05 pm]
payne -- I also forgot "moneyless", but I heard some theorists actually are debating that
[11:05 pm]
Mini Moose 2707 -- I'm glad to see most or all of you agree with what I said half an hour ago. :P
[11:05 pm]
payne -- SW, you are very right!
[11:05 pm]
payne -- and this is kind of what makes a lot of socio-political debates very dumb: people criticizing communism are generally talking of socialism, and thus the pro-communist side has it very easy in their head to argue that you are wrong
[11:04 pm]
Fire_Kame -- your discussing an ideal vs the practical application. In an ideal environment even capitalism would flourish.
[11:04 pm]
Sand Wraith -- hm that's true. Honestly, I don't know the finer details about Communism, my friend is much better read than I am.
[11:04 pm]
Roy -- Government: A government is the system by which a state or community is governed.
[11:04 pm]
payne -- what you are debating is the Socialist movement of the workers during the period of time where they try to achieve communism
[11:03 pm]
Sand Wraith -- or perhaps so, idk.
[11:03 pm]
payne -- government = a different class of people, and thus not classless. it thus cannot exist within a communist society
[11:03 pm]
Sand Wraith -- payne
payne shouted: communism IS "classless, and within a post-scarcity scenario"
I really don't think this is a realistic reflection of modern Communist ideas.
[11:03 pm]
payne -- communism IS "classless, and within a post-scarcity scenario"
[11:02 pm]
payne -- you have to understand one thing about communism and some of its theorists: the definition of it is literally a system that already presupposes the perfect scenario which would make sure that the system would hold in place (which is somewhat dumb, but oh well!)
[11:02 pm]
Fire_Kame -- in fifty years china will most likely declassify their "five year plan" that used communism to reunite the country and how they will/are slowly dismantle it to minimize negative impacts on the working class. It's already started.
[11:02 pm]
Sand Wraith -- payne
payne shouted: Sand Wraith that's the pre-scarcity idea of communism, indeed.
<< Is it? Even so , finite resources will always be a problem and Communism would likely be able to provide a framework to use resources sustainably.
[11:02 pm]
payne -- Zoan, there are no governments in communism.
[11:00 pm]
Roy -- Go back to China, you communist! Wait, China's not a communist state?
[11:00 pm]
payne -- Also, Zoan, maybe you should visit a Rainbow Gathering once in your life :)
[11:00 pm]
Sand Wraith -- Mini Moose 2707
Mini Moose 2707 shouted: I think Kame is saying the culture assimilates the communistic ideals, not the other way around.
I think that's mostly fine. It sounds reformist though, which is problematic if you're asking the people in power and who control the means of production to give it up for the good of the people.
[11:00 pm]
Fire_Kame -- what's the good of it all in building a wall when in front of your eyes it disappears?
[10:59 pm]
Sand Wraith -- Zoan
Zoan shouted: Well even could be, I don't think communism would ever work. It assumes a wrong viewpoint of human nature, which is that we are all good.
Sigh, that's wrong. Communism doesn't need to assume something that fantastical. Most people aren't lazy enough for laziness to be a problem. Capitalism doesn't even particularly spur innovation. Having basic necessities met and providing time to play and experiment to people is more than enough to drive work and labour, amongst other things such as personal and social fulfillment.
[10:58 pm]
Fire_Kame -- such as the invention of the replicator
[10:58 pm]
payne -- thus, once you have all you need provided, why would you need a market system?
[10:58 pm]
payne -- post-scarcity means there would be enough of the necessary ressources available for everyone to use
[10:58 pm]
Zoan -- Like if everything is in abundance?
[10:57 pm]
Sand Wraith -- payne
payne shouted: Zycorax theoretically, indeed. Communism is post-scarcity, for example. Once post-scarcity... hell, what wouldn't work?
No, I don't think that's true. Scarcity will always be a problem. Communism addresses that by distributing resources appropriately such that scarcity never impacts one group overwhelmingly (as capitalism presently permits).
[10:57 pm]
Zoan -- Not sure what that means haha
[10:57 pm]
payne -- Zoan, you do know that in the theory, communism is said to be post-scarcity?
[10:56 pm]
Mini Moose 2707 -- I think Kame is saying the culture assimilates the communistic ideals, not the other way around.
[10:56 pm]
Zoan -- Well even could be, I don't think communism would ever work. It assumes a wrong viewpoint of human nature, which is that we are all good.

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