Yes that is balanced. Would it be fair to leave it there if say, the person on the other teams leaves right away to make it 1v1? I mean it may be a little imba due to 1 player leaving, but most DS maps give NO BONUS whatsoever to the 1 player when doing a 1v2 or even 1v3. The 1 gets extremely overpowered in those maps.

You mean imbalanced? else this makes no sense to me sorry for that idk if i misunderstands.... but ur xcample (but most DS maps give NO BONUS whatsoever to the 1 player when doing a 1v2 or even 1v3. The 1 gets extremely overpowered in those maps). >>>>> Same in DS NIGHT BUT 15-20% MORE EXTREMELYOVERPOWERED???

What i was saying: was that the 1player vs more in ds night. the 1 has advance cause of the 15-20% bonus

Your saying: that the 1 player vs more in ds night. its balance cause of the bonus------ but without the bonus the 1 gets Huge advance(makes no sense to me)-- (add the bonus from ds night in the maps with no bonus and then it suddently balanced??)

I think something is missing out else i dont understand your conclusion.

3FFA means to say that in a 1v3 game without any bonus, the 1 becomes overwhelmed, as in can't keep up with the 3 players. He said overpowered in the passive sense rather than the active sense you have interpreted it.

Now I'm not particularly interested in re-hashing why I implemented the 15-30% bonus for imbalanced teams in place of the refund mechanic because I've already explained and debated it at length earlier in this thread (probably around page 10 or so, at least on my SEN settings, perhaps page 20 if you use default settings?).

But to put it shortly, the refund mechanic is not perfectly balanced either, and I've found that in a 1 v 3 game with the refund mechanic that the single player can often win and the 3 player team have no chance, simply because the 1 player can out-special them easily thanks to the refunds. I explored various other mechanics on how to make this fairer but ultimately couldn't find a better system than the 15%/30% flat mineral bonus.

In general I built a lot of mechanics into the game with the intention of preventing players from leaving because they got angry or whatever. The 1v3 situation with the refunds was an example of that: I've been in games that started off as 3v3 but went to 1v3 for whatever reason, where the people on the 3 team just quit because they knew that no matter what they did, they wouldn't be able to win. Now in DS Night in a 1v3 situation it is quite likely the 1 player will quit because they'll have difficulty winning when it comes to the special war, but in my actual gameplay experience, generally 2v3 or 1v3 games will carry on to completion if the game has gotten to a certain point (around 3-4 gas), often just to see how long the disadvantaged team can hold out. I have also won a few games myself when playing in a 1v3 or 2v3 position and it can get quite exciting and feel like a real accomplishment if you do manage to win.

I totally disagree

Round 1 - P1 & P5 spawn
Round 2 - P2 & P5 spawn

Equal spawning agreed?

In terms of countering 2 different races, if you've played the game long enough you will have a feel for which units work best in certain situations. At least this holds true for every DS i've played to date excluding Night because i really just dont like BW so i havent familiarized myself with it.

If the above holds true (which i don't see why it wouldnt), 15-20% is not needed.

Who implied anything about leaving the 15-20% bonus there? I believe GG was implying that whoever was the 1 that had the 15-20% bonus for 10 minutes has been receiving extra exceeding the 2. The game now becomes 1v1 and 1 player had a 15-20% bonus for 10 minutes while the other didnt. Why not compensate the 1 who didnt have a bonus so that theyre back to equal resources that were accrued by this 15-20% increase.

I think this is where you confused GG. When you referred to OP he probably thought you meant "rigged" which it seems like you meant "over run". But as he stated above, if you add 15-20% on those maps all of a sudden it would be balanced?

What about 2 specials vs 1?
In a 2v1 scenario why is the 1 not refunded after using spec?

*EDIT*
Sorry this would have been posted before Lanthanide if SEN wasnt acting up for me (website kept timing out)

Anyways in reference to your issue in a 1v3 scenario for refunds. Had you considered refunding 2 different amounts (ie. 1st spec high amount, 2nd spec medium amount) It was very rare for me to encounter a game that made it to spec on the older variations of DS as 99% of the games i played were won in 15 minutes. The newer variations of DS are usually 30-40 minute games and have a few spec's involved the refund system works as it does in the old variants and the 3v1's i've encountered have been fine. On the latest release of DS Final, Vespene is used for spec and it is upgradeable. This also uses the refund method. Works good as far as i've seen.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jul 6 2012, 7:27 am by staxx.

Well to share my apenion.. i think 1vs2-3, without bonus not taking specials in perspective, is balanced. Cause each team spawn equal no matter if its 1v2-3. In games where 1 player only gas and other players gets mad and leaves i think the 1 player have advance cause of start boost the player had, but theres really no way to even such a scenario up. Rather the balance should be meant for games starting 1v2-3. All the ds ive played i find it even hard vs more with no bonus = ive won both beeing on team with more vs less and opposite also won beeing less vs more. So i dont think the 1 is beeing overwhelmed vs more. Actually i think beeing 1 is rather more easy to time ur gas fitting your racial power.


I think i use default settings.


For the concern of specials and refund, its posibbel to do up the math of balancing the refund amount so it fits tree types of scenarios without the refund to be as high as the cost of specials. For xcample i made special cost 3000 and refund is 1000,1500,2000: in 3v1 its 2000 and here the 1 is able to counter all 3 and then the cycle starts all over, the math look like this p1 3000-3000=0 vs p5 3000-1000=2000 > second special p2 3000-3000=0 p5 3000-1000=2000 > third special p3 3000-3000=0 p5 3000-1000 >>Each time p5 use special and loose 1000 he need save up 1000 -- then after tree specials he have had wait time of 1000x3=3000 which is the precise amount time that p1/p2/p3 need wait for beeing able to special again.

Now this is depended that all specials is as even as possibel--cause if mc is the strongest in 1v3 scenarios team havin most mc options win cause of the unbalanced specials -- but 1 protoss vs 3 protoss would be even. I mentioned this problem 1-2 page back. In ds night i do find infest to be alot stronger than other specials (cause of the high instant dmg it delivers to the temple). But yes it takes up lotta time to balancing specials.

Yes, that maths is very obvious and easy to work out.

The problem, again as I have already discussed at length earlier in this thread, is that it puts the single player in the controlling position in the game. If *any* of the members of the other 3-team stop saving money and instead build something, while the single player continues saving money, they're instantly behind and can't catch up. So here we have a matter of team discipline an agency: it's 3 players vs 1, if any of those 3 players play badly against that single player, they can doom their team and there's nothing the other two players can do about it. The single player can also perform a coup-de-grace and easily win: say it costs 3,000 to build your special and you get a refund of 2,000 every time you do, it means after you've saved the initial 3,000 you only ever have to save up an additional 1,000 after that. So if you save up 4-5k you can easily use several specials in a row, or you could dump the money into a lot of high-end units all at once, which will then spawn on 100% of all future spawnings (whereas in the 3 player team, high end units from any single player only spawn 33% of the time) and still have enough money left over for a special or two.

Another aspect is giving Terran's refunds for their buildings: if they only need to save up 1k to get their special (because they started at 2k and get 2k refunded) then any refunds from lifting off buildings and destroying add-ons is magnified. This is, I think, a nice mechanic that the terran have and helps set them radically apart from the other races when it comes to end-game specials, and I think going to the refund system (which is flawed) would necessitate dropping this mechanic would be a shame.

ok lets put this in perspective here, let's say when everyone starts saving for spec's each teams spawn are even. They all reach 3000 at the same time p1 goes first 3000 goes to 0 p5 counters 3000 goes to 2000 p2 counters this and 3000 goes to 0.

Just so we follow
p1 0
p2 0
p3 3000
p5 2000
Mass is at p5 temple

By the time p5 has 3000 again they will spec obv since they need to push, at this point p3 will have 4000 and will counter.

p1 1000
p2 1000
p3 0
p5 2000
Mass is still at p5 temple

And so on and so forth.

Now if p5 went first, you could imagine it would just be disastrous for p5 as p1 would just counter and p2/p3 would each have 4000 by the time p5 went again followed by 5000 for one of them on the next follow up.

In conclusion of the above noted, if everyone is "disciplined" as you stated, the team with 3 will more than likely win.

Now, as for a player stopping to build more, this would indicate that their spawn isn't pushing and this player is attempting to get a push back. In this case, why, if your already losing the game would you not deserve to lose from spec's anyways?


Yes, lift for refund to spam spec's is very lame. This was addressed by myself and GGmano on our latest version of DS Final. Here we use vespene for spec's to remedy lifting for spec's as theyre only refunded minerals when they lift. I know you're going to reply with "well i can't use this system because vespene is already being used as a delay timer". There are several other ways to incorporate timers (burning buildings, display text, etc.) Then now i know you're going to reply with "I don't have the time anymore to update this map" in this case why not release an unprotected copy so that people may address issues that are present in the game. I'm not referring to myself or GG, i'm rather referring to any map maker. If you're worried about people incorporating cheats and bugs into your maps, everyone already knows your work for what it is. Any piece of s**t that surfaces from others will not get played while the good maps you've made will continue to get play.

Actually, I've seen plenty of the bad map versions(rip-offs as Lanthanide puts it) being hosted at various servers. Usually its the same 4-5 people too. I've had experiences where if you kindly tell them that the map is a rip-off version, please download the latest from staredit.net, they can respond in any way from ignoring you, replying in a different language, cursing at you(sometimes in the other language), etc.

Yes, and did you end up playing the map? Gauranteed you didn't. Which would just reinforce the point i made in my previous post.

staxx clearly just wanted the game to be a battle of units disregarding specials

Maybe you just misunderstand what was written in the above posts, but how does removing the 15-20% and fixing the balance of specials have anything to do with disregarding the use of specials?

To touch on the exact quote you decided to bring up. You feel that if you're dominating your enemy through the entire game your enemy should have the opportunity to win the match just because theyre able to save for their special? What would be the logic in building good units then if the game outcome will be determined by a spec war?

The whole point of that is, if you've made poor choices through out the game, you don't deserve to win. As Lanthanide bluntly put it before to me at one point "We're not here to hold hands for poor decision making".

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 8 2012, 8:11 pm by staxx.

This game is about utilizing every minerals, units, bombs, and specials. Every player has his own way of playing the game whether concentrating on units or specializing on tactics using small amount of decoys or using bombs and specials to beat their enemies. It's not about solely on units where your winning at first and you lose on the end when your enemies used bombs and specials. The game always turns around when someone saves for specials and uses bombs. Don't predict that your enemy will just build units like you do because everybody is different. And don't say that one will always win on special wars because all players have specials like you do. It only matters when and how you will use it.

Try to play 1v2 on balance minerals. When the team with 2 players use a tactic where one creates units and the other only specials mid-game you can't win the game. Just one use of special can turn the whole map to your advantage where all units become your enemies and how can you cope up with that alone on balanced minerals? What would happen then on 1v3? You can't be saying you can win the battle on units where 3 players uses specials because they can use 3 specials while you can only use one.

Play the game and don't compare on refunds on previous versions where the gameplay sucks. Lanthanide makes a very good job of editing this game where there are so many players playing this game.

Agreed


I agree the game is all about tactics, no argument there.

As the game should turn around when specials are used, that is after all the intention of specials. Any player with common sense would watch the scoreboard and see that someone is saving for a special and be right there to follow up on it so that if their enemy uses a spec, theyre able to counter it and push the game right back where it left off.

I think you misunderstood again here. No one said anything about JUST building units. When i refer to "Spec Wars", i'm saying that the game has come to a point where specials are used every round thus making anything that was considered tactical up to this point void.

I feel like i'm a broken record here...
Please just re-read what was already posted several times.

No one said Lanthanide did a crappy job, if you took the time to read what people write you would see the statement i made about people knowing the good work he has done and that they will continue to play his maps. All myself and GG are trying to do is make suggestions on what can be improved.

I disagree. I think it's a very neat feature unique to the terran race, which helps to complement their special which is much more situational than the other races'.

Mineral refunds from lift-offs are added by me in triggers. If I wanted to removed them, all I'd have to do is remove the trigger. In standard SC, add-ons become owned by Neutral when a building lifts off: all I do is detect the neutral add-on, destroy it and compensate the player with 66% of what they paid for it. But I could just destroy it without a refund, or simply leave it there un-touched.

So you think its neat that terran can lift off to gain enough for several spec's?
Wheres the balance in that?

I'll give you a scenario. 3v3

Force 1 has at least 1 terran, force 2 has no terran. Lets say everyone has used up all their booms, insta spawn, and saves for spec at roughly the same time just for argument sake.

Top team spec's first
Bottom team counters
Top counters
Bottom counters
Top counters

Now 1 player from bottom team still has spec. Next spawn this player uses their spec just so they can do damage to their enemies temple without interruption.
Whoever was terran on bottom team lifts a couple buildings to gain enough for another spec, they use it on the next spawn again to ensure there are no interruptions to damage on the enemy temple. They lift a couple more buildings and keep repeating this process for every spawn there after. OP much?

Yes, i know how the trigger works. It would be a shame if this trigger was removed.

I don't know why you guys are discussing this stuff. It has been discussed before and dropped. The map is very balanced as it is now and I can't come up with anything I would honestly do instead to balance it more. Maybe +1 or +2 damage on siege tank but that would be it. (When in siege mode)

I agree on that i have same problem with several of my maps same i know staxx have had problem with one of hes maps to. it dosent feel good when you have used lotta time on making a map, but mostly i only get mad if its beeing made rigged since ur name is on it and you didnt want a rigged map with ur name. Its not really that big a problem to me tho.

back to subject that i dont think the bonus of less vs more is good for your map lanthanide and i think both me and staxx explained you why, but as i posted earlier its all up to you on how you want your map.

To adjust whether specials influence more or less on outcome of win or lose in the map its the cost of specials and the quality(the dmg made on temple compared dmg made from push) the ressource speed and delays on the gas that determines how much specials are used and how many times these end up making the outcome of map.

For xcample ive never played your map where people dosent choose double cost of specials, so why even beeing able to choose normal price specials. you could change the price for normal to be abit less than double price is now and have game option specials at 1.5 prices?? an idea.. also u could put a limit on specials per player.. so each player is maximum allowed to make 3 specials for xcample.

also the terran lifting addon refund can cause unbalance tho i dont think it dose in your map since its only factory addon that gives normal units so its hard mass add on refund buildings.


ohh im not refering that much to the unit balance cause its hard for to see both cause so many different types units and game is not really determined by unit balance.

Its not that i dont like the map i rather think its a ok map, just not the ds map i prefer i know other ds maps that is nearly as much depended on specials as this. If the specials where to be removed completly for a test version. then unit balance would be way more easy to see, whether which unit is to high dmg which is to less compared price and so on. but changing units stats wouldnt change the maps gameplay much unless u change the stats alot so one race would be rigged. if unit balance is nearly even then specials is come to play and the balance of specials determines the overall balance.. = even terran would have best units spawn but terran special is weakest then terran is the weakest race overall..

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2012, 3:27 pm by GGmano.

Each special has a place where it shines. P and Z mainly is right as the last few enemy units spawn (so this is often around the 5-14 seconds mark). Terran is more based around that the best offense is a good defense. The timing I feel is much more versatile with Terran. Thus people have a hard time trying to find the "best" timing for the Terran special. It can be used before the enemy spawn as well as after the spawn and even as the spawn spawns. It can be used to save the silo or night defense as well if timed correctly.

Did You Mean that 1 gets overwhelmed by the team beeing 2 or 3? So its bad beeing 1vsmore?

Correct. I just played a 1v2 yesterday (from the start) as the 1 and was overwhelmed. Sad thing is it was PvZT and the T went MASS barracks and 10 depots into mass tanks into mass wraith then left when it was clear that I lost if we continued 1v2. Funny thing was that he was incredibly bored and asked if he could leave. I answered yes and his ally said no. He left and we both lol'd. Then I was barely able to win due to having just gone for a mass carrier army and switched to special as soon as he left. My opponents had just done a good amount of damage to my temple and knocked down the Night D with 1)infest 2)Nuke 3) Infest while I had yet to special. Thankfully I was able to pull in the win due to his ally leaving.

Overall, it is hard to balance it for 1v2 switching to 1v1 but for 1v2 alone you really, really require that extra 15-20% bonus. I leave any DS maps where it is 1v2 due to there being no bonus thus meaning that I end up looking like a total noob if I keep playing .