I'd be able to give mentoring help if anybody wants, too. I'm confident and fairly strong with nearly all mapping aspects. I've done a little bit with a friend of mine, and it seemed to help him.

I can help you motivate yourself by harassing you hourly on aim. That's about it.

SEN Rampage contest 1-1 is officially closed. All scores are final. Prize distribution will occur on Friday, October the 21st at the earliest.

Thank you to all of those who participated (including those who didn't finish on the deadline =p)

You mentioned that EUD Actions aren't allowed, but are EUD Conditions allowed?

Yes, but expect EUD Actions to be allowed in the future.

No one ever asked for EUD actions to be allowed.

If you thought Lethal's post was a complaint about the state of the rules then you grossly misread it.

There was a lot of negative feedback from CC.

I fail to see how EUD actions are any sort of modding. They write data in the game, such as adding HP; they do not import new data into the game. I definitely think there is a fine line between modding and EUD actions.

1) EUD actions allow mappers to do more. HP regeneration, upgrade levels, and various other things can be completely changed in the game. This offers a new avenue of creativity.

2) EUD actions require an external program only because Blizzard patched Starcraft. Before, they were just as usable as conditions.

3) EUD actions are coded within triggers, and only function within one map. They cannot import new data (if they could this would not be allowed in the contest). You are still only working with the original stardat.mpq and broodat.mpq.

---

They're not an unfair advantage. It does take a lot to know them; it takes a lot to know EUD conditions. But knowledge and experience factors into a mapper's skills. I'm not about to nix some complex system because an amateur is unable to grasp it.

Furthermore, EUD actions cannot be written into SCM Draft 2. Do not expect them to be allowed until there is any easy way to implement them, and they become well-documented (much akin to Roy's EPD guide). "In the future," does not necessarily mean the next contest. I wouldn't permit them until they were easily accessible.

I'd support potentially allowing EUD actions in future contests, so long as their inherent disadvantages-- i.e. having to arrange the game in advance in order that everyone might be running an EUD Enabler program, operating system compatibility issues-- are recognized as relevant to the scoring of any map that chooses to use them. It is true that not being able to use text trigedit after adding EUD actions is rather annoying, though...

1) EUD actions allow the kind of advantage that forces everyone to use them. That is why modding isn't allowed in mapping contests, and mod-allowed contests are called modding contests. This is not the same for EUD conditions, where using them is optional since their impact, especially in multiplayer environments, is almost always negligible.

2) EUD actions cause the map to be unplayable except in single-player, or in limited circumstances at predesignated times. This is the same reason many mappers dislike mods. It greatly limits the audience the map is available to, and heavily restricts the mapmakers ability to enjoy the map himself.

3) The mechanics of how they alter the game is irrelevant, or whether or not they have ever been usable without third-party programs. You have listed a few totally irrelevant differences between EUD actions and mods. Another one similar to those would be "they aren't called the same thing." Well that's great, but the fact is that they still have all the same inherent flaws and disadvantages that mods do.


Not any more than a mod is, assuming the information for modding was readily available.


I'm not about to applaud some system when an amateur couldn't manage it without requiring third-party programs to use it.

Of course, the same logically nonsensical argument could be used to call those who do or do not use mods "amateurs" as well.


You shouldn't permit them until they can be played without modding StarCraft to do so, or you should permit modding altogether.

If I can remember correctly, single player games can use EUD actions.

I must make a map that uses EUDs to inject code to install and run a separate game.

Then we should disqualify K_A's map, as he used a third-party programme (SCMDraft) to make his map.

Your logic is contradictory. If a mapmaker can't use third-party programmes to enhance their map, restrict them to StarEdit. Don't bother using the "but SCMDraft let's mapmakers do more with the game!" argument either; the same is true for EUDs.

Reread what you quoted.


I said to use it, not to make it.

My logic is perfectly sound.

I once observed lard roll uphill.



I personally wouldn't ever trust you with a judging position of any nature no matter how small. Not with the bias and ignorance you parade around.

Nothing personal or anything. I wouldn't judge the contest either.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 21 2011, 4:36 pm by IskatuMesk.

The advantage of the results-oriented system that I have been advocating, where you are liable for the disadvantages of any method you use, is that all of the downsides that you mentioned will be taken into account in evaluating any map with EUD actions. Once those things are factored in with their full weight, I would say that your (1) would probably not hold; if anything, judging by the relative popularity of maps without EUD actions to that of maps with them, it would seem to be very, very hard to come up with an EUD action map that is truly competitive with those that are not subject to the disadvantages of that method. The same would be true of allowing maps with accompanying mods: I expect that once the negatives of such a system are taken into account, a map like that would have a hard time doing well.

And no, allowing EUD actions or even mod accompaniments would not make the contest into a modding contest: in a modding or mod-map contest, mods are expected, so participants are not liable for the inherent disadvantages of modding, whereas in a mapping contest, they would be. Likewise, an "EUD Action Map" contest would carry with it an expectation that such triggers were used, whereas, in a straightforward mapping contest, there would be no such expectation, and hence no special tolerance for the weaknesses of EUD action maps in general when compared to maps without them.

Well I didn't get the impression that he would take said disadvantages into account should he allow them, only the advantages. If there were, say, a 25% penalty for using them, then I could see the contest remaining a mapping contest.


You quoted me out of context

I know. :3

Anyway, Az is arguing from a matter of principle, rather than a matter of practicality. I still think it is more practical to allow mappers to write data, and he disagrees. I do think, however, that Az has a point about it raising the level that's required to do well. Whether I think it's fair or not, it would definitely be a turn off to anyone not capable of doing them (read: most contestants).

This fact is something I need to consider.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 23 2011, 11:53 pm by DevliN. Reason: Editing out unnecessary argument.

I just thought of a great theme... Dungeons; whether its a rpg with dungeons, a puzzler, or just simply a labyrinthos inspired map.

I would reconsider the way you judge the contest if this becomes a problem. To me, it doesn't matter how you choose to present something. Whether it's a mod, or a map, or somewhere inbetween, but rather the end product. You can have a simple map still present itself better and be more enjoyable than a mod, what it will come down to is how the author chooses to use his skillset rather than what his skillset contains. For example, I don't recommend people to voice act if they are bad at it. I would rate a mod worse for bad voice acting than if they had no acting at all. Just being able to do X shouldn't magically grant you points. Otherwise all of my mods would have been amazing just because they had custom voice acting. As it turns out, almost all of them were total shit anyways.