The Universe is a sum of parts. Some parts are positive, most are negative. You're confusing the average entropy with local entropy. Since it is a closed system (as far as we know) it is subject to the second law; however, this does not mean that entropy must be increasing ubiquitously, but merely that it must be increasing overall.

Could you please explain this argument? I went through the whole topic and haven't seen you explain this elsewhere. Perhaps you did before in a related topic? Before we get into the entropy of the universe -- an incredibly complex issue in itself, we should understand what Jack is trying to say so as not to waste our time bringing up issues with entropy that are irrelevant to the argument.

Given that thermodynamics really has nothing to do with evolution whatsoever, clearly Jack's argument is stemming from misunderstanding.

Yeah, thermodynamics is a branch of physics, while evolution is, of course, biology.

Violation of the second law of thermodynamics actually a common counter-argument proposed in opposition to evolution. As I've stated, on the offset it appears as though there is a legitimate claim, but in actuality it isn't, so one may see how those who have not studied this area of physics may misinterpret it.

This is flawed. No one is saying the Bible is wrong and we must cherry pick the evidence to prove that. We have the evidence, and it shows the Bible is wrong. It isn't cherry picked.

No, no, no! Wrong!! With a scientific mindset you completely disregard what you think about whether the bible is right or wrong. You look at the evidence ONLY and THEN come to a conclusion, NOT before.


If this is what you truly believe Jack, then you should be more worried about why God would bother making a universe with a 'law' that does not permit the existence of life, so that it had to intervene with its own law in order to permit it... Lol.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Sep 11 2011, 8:59 am by Oh_Man.

We form a hypothesis before gathering evidence.

A hypothesis is an 'educated guess' because it is a suggested solution based on evidence. It's isn't based on your personal bias or unsupported opinion. Then you do a series of tests to see if the hypothesis is further supported or disproved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias <-- this is what you are suffering from

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 11 2011, 6:18 pm by Oh_Man.

Now if God created the universe, there would be no such thing as entropy before that, so it doesn't really matter.

Also, you guys are thinking about entropy completely wrong.
The transfer of energy decides if entropy is increasing or decreasing.
If energy is entering the system, entropy decreases, if it is leaving, entropy increases.
Energy from the sun is entering the Earths atmosphere, entropy decreases.
Energy from the Earth is escaping from the Earths atmosphere, entropy increases.
It's at equillibrium.

I also have a a beef with the entire concept of entropy in general, it states that entropy can increase in a closed system, which is physically impossible.
It's impossible to have a perfectly closed system other than the universe, and I dare you to give me a situation in which entropy can increase.

Source, please? I haven't heard this before.

It's not meant to be realistic, it's meant to be theoretical. Which we can then apply to systems that are conveniently thought of as closed, such as an insulated box.

This is what they teach you in high school but in true research it's frowned upon as it can lead to forming biased results in an attempt to support the null hypothesis.

Come on man, this is SD, you wanna put some more effort into that? What do you MEAN??

He created the universe, he created entropy, he created life. But entropy, by your very own logic, stops life from occurring. So he then has to intervene with his own law, in order to preserve life. Wait, what is this law for again?? He needs to create a law that he has to then intervene? Shitty law, shitty designer. Wait, maybe there is no such thing? Aaah, now it all makes perfect sense. Entropy DOES allow evolution and life to grow, and it doesn't need a magical sky daddy! How simple! Occam's razor slits the wrist of your God theory.

An insulated box doesn't instantly make it a perfectly closed system; closed systems don't exist and never will. They are purely the result of speculation.
Give an example that proves me wrong and I will gladly agree with you -_-


Yes, A single celled organism appeared out of nowhere and slowly multiplied into identical copies of itself that weren't the same, grew new cells that took on different functions that were mutually beneficial, and over millions of years started growing apendages, brains, logic, and inventing the wheel. Shitty law, Shitty single celled organisms. Wait, maybe there is no such thing? What perfect sense this makes. There could be a god to create the universe, and that god could have made everything the way it is.

Seriously, when you create a new form of life in a petri dish, and it thinks the processes that created it happened by chance, don't come crying to me.

Don't be so cocky. Maybe you'll figure out that you're not the only human with critical thinking skills.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

You don't understand what you're talking about.

Hey FaZ- I haven't seen you in a while.

I think many people are viewing my beliefs as only a fiction, as I do not. I could easily say the same of ideas of evolution. Sheesh, why do you people even believe in that evolution crap. We've known that God existed ever since he created the Earth and put Adam and Eve on it, and you guys till can't figure it out.

I view every belief as a fiction until it can hold itself up with evidence.

I like how you didn't address anything regarding the flawed-entropy-law-and-why-god-didn't-create-it and instead copy pasted what I said and swapped it out with evolution related words. I see what you did ther. But my post wasn't even about evolution? It was about the law of entropy and how it doesn't make sense why God made it in the first place?

To test your faith, clearly.

They don't need ten commandments, just two:
1. God exists.
2. If it appears that God does not exist, refer to 1.