I used to play Hero wars a lot. And then I realized how messed up hero wars was (2.3, 2.4, 2.5, 2.6) when I found out about the observer cheat. (top right corner--> free $2000) People soon quit playing the game because of the cheat.

So I set to work on my own hero wars - Hero Wars Not Rigged. It was very not successful at all. Not balanced, no flow, setup was confusing, etc. And the title really made ppl think it was rigged.

So I changed the name to Hero Wars Greece. I had the force names - Ares & Athena.

Again, people complained of imbalance, & all else. Some people just quit because it wasn't the real hero wars.

But over time I made the map better & I also changed the force names into "Athenians" & "Spartans".

That really caught people's eyes. That was just when movie 300 came out. "Sparta! Sparta!" & ppl didn't leave immediately upon joining the game as they would have before. They actually tried it.

I thought it would be cool to have reaver (hero reaver b/c the normal one can't quick drop/attack/pick/run) with a shuttle. And it was a pretty cool idea, & it was workable but the triggers made the ppl who chose the reaver drop (most of the time) So I had it out.

Hero Wars Greece was & is superior to the original hero wars series in almost every way.

First, no cheats.
Second, the game goes much faster. If you're a pro at original hero wars final (and more recent legend), you'll even love hero wars greece more b/c it's fast paced.
:map is 64 x 64 -much smaller
:Income is faster. You get more money for kills. You get more money for duels.
::This also led the photons to become much stronger (b/c heroes would get much stronger & so would the spawn & waves--> photons would get outdated easily)
:::And that led some ppl into think that something was wrong with the game - infact they didn't know it was a fast-paced hero wars.

Third, you duel all at the same time. Then there is no this rock-paper-scissor win. There's more strategy, more unexpected & new situations, more balance.
:But I had to make siege tank much weaker
:Also I had to "force" ppl to advance to the center by having the middle ground higher than the two ends of the arena. Or else, 1 side would advance & get killed 1 by 1 while the other side just stay still and attack whichever comes first.
:Also I had turrets at opposite ends to force ppl to move their heroes away --> coming to center.

Fourth, no cheap shots. In original hero wars, you could stay at that spawn location in the duel arena & have higher ground. Here, no, ,you have to earn it.
You could block the spawn location with pylon & reaver wave --> no income for enemy; In Hero Wars Greece you get income based on how many locations your computer brings troops to (in addition to the kills) --> you lose more income by doing that cheat .
::Also 2 x 2 square of the area is ground where you can't build stuffs.

Fifth, I added 1 more spawn level you can upgrade to (necessary). Spawn ups cost $4000. You can also nuke (pretty expensive though).
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I played hero wars enough, got bored of it. I wanted more things happening at the same time. I was bored of controlling just one unit.

I could turn to mass games, but they sucked. Always there was the balance issue, and little interaction was required for the players. And there was no need to micro, it was totally macro - your dudes died too quickly for you to do anything.

Then I remembered footmen frenzy from warcraft iii (only reason why i don't play that game is that it has that 3d graphics that I don't like - doesn't look as cool as starcraft's)

There, the footmen had enough hp for you micro with it - run when it's about to get killed, also enough hp for your dudes to withstand hits while regrouping, moving around to concentrate on one enemy unit, etc.


So, I decided to make a uber balanced mass game where your footmen die slowly. And you would have an upgradable hero. And I added spells, just like in footmen frenzy.
::Also, my brother made custom hero wars - with spells, I know that spells can be fun, but I noticed & my brother admitted it too, there was always this issue with balance issue between the intelligence agility and strength heroes
:::always intelligence heroes would win the duels but not fare well outside of duel.

I decided to fix those issues by making the ultimate spell much more expensive, leave out customization,with no option for "strength" "agility" "intelligence" but just 3 different hero types that have spells already customized.

So, you can't choose spell combos that make you ultimately rigged, but you don't get bored b/c you can always experiment with 3 spell sets.

I had 5 levels of footmen, 3 levels of spell, 3 levels of spell gas cap (limit)

The problem was with the income. How should I incentivize people to fight? You can't do that on kills (different units have different kill scores that you can't control). Deaths apply to all other players (-->doesn't work)

So I just had ppl come to center to earn income. Then ppl would fight no matter what, & ppl with most skill would likely win the game.

End of story. (I uploaded the map on the other forum)

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jan 13 2008, 4:10 am by cosmicagent.

First of all, the ultimate spells sucked in Custom Hero Wars, so why make them cost more, I have no clue. You should at least make them stronger and cost LESS. Second of all, it just sounds like normal hero wars with different names and a smaller map size. Third of all, getting money by standing there is never the way to go. . .Fourth of all, forcing people to duel isn't really cool, they want to get ready with their summons or something, then have an all out war. Fifth of all, three spell sets isn't a whole lot to experiment with, customization is key, customization means experimentation, experimentation is not pre-set spell lists. Sorry for all the criticism, but it just doesn't seem like I need to know how you made a knock-off map, and criticism always makes you try harder.

Ok, I just cut your reply short into points that I can focus with

Well, I think you got confused b/w Hero Wars Greece & Zero Wars Anime. They're 2 different maps - I talked about Hero Wars Greece a bit to explain how I came up with Zero Wars Anime.

1) Well, it might have sucked in that it doesn't win you the game but it was enough to win you your duels in tandem with your special combos that make them ultimately rigged.
2) Yes, Hero wars Greece is like normal hero wars except with all the benefits I mentioned.
3) Well, you only know the 1st part of the story. 2nd part is that, you get more income by gaining enemy territory. Deeper & deeper you penetrate, more income you get.
:::If you still disagree, tell me how you would solve that cheat where you block your own spawn so that the enemy doesn't get any income.
::::::This also fixes the imbalance between the spawn upgrades & pure hero upgrades (there's no point to concentrating on upgrading spawn in original hero wars) b/c spawn wins you more territory--> more income.
::::::This also gives some strategic benefits to building photon cannons (which are expensive anyways, $400, pylon $200 or something like that) - which almost no "pros" at original hero wars went for.

4) This doesn't really apply because Hero Wars Greece isn't Custom Hero Wars - so there's no need for you to prep for your spell moves.
:::If you still "", tell me "" where in duel the side that moves to the center first to attack loses because it's nearly impossible to coordinate such an attack simultaneously --> your guys get killed 1 by 1.

5) I agree that it's not whole lot to experiment with, but Zero Wars Anime has a lot of other features that would prevent me from adding the customization (which takes billions of triggers) because it would lag the game. Zero Wars Anime puts Starcraft to its maximum limit.
:::If you still "" "" how you can prevent your game from getting rigged by having the spell combos be customizable.

In sum, I think that some of your points were wonderful but they didn't apply b/c you didn't know I was talking about 2 different maps; others were okay, 'not cool' but really the practical side to my changes outweigh those "not cool" things - like it doesn't really affect the gameplay or cause any frustration for the players as much as it gets rid of imbalance & cheats & tricks that really frustrated me.
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You can download the maps here:
Zero Wars Anime
Hero Wars Greece

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jan 14 2008, 12:41 am by cosmicagent.

I would, on this one point, like to disagree with you. I've often played hero-and-army maps in which I get stomped, but where my one laughing fact is that I can still rape any of the other team in 1v1. In fact, in Hero Wars for WC3, I generally lose out in the beginning and slowly bounce back into complete domination by the end of the game, which I probably wouldn't be able to do so easily without duels.

By forcing people to duel I meant that the turret kind of forced them to go on, so people can't get prepare or anything, it's just a matter of who has more upgrades.

well, that's what it's really about, itn't it?

you deserve to win most of the time if you have more upgrades - that's really the essence of the balance in these games

i don't really see any alternatives where you can do some magic trick or do some awful strategy to beat someone with more ups (unless it's the hero type, attack type, etc)

also, the timer already warns that you have to be prepared for duel. i'm not sure what kind of real-situation advantage would appear by getting rid of the turrets.

Again, it's even worse to not have turrets because guys that move forward first then get killed 1 by 1 while the guys that stay behind still kill 1 by 1 whoever comes to them first. (remember this can be 3v3, so this really makes a whole lot of difference)

Why can't the normal reaver do quick drop attacks? I thought both the hero and non-hero reavers were the same in this respect? Is there something I'm missing?