If you buff the terran, I'll totally force all my games to be Tri-Terran and arma the hell out of my enemies. I think it's already fairly effective now that you can't just boom the archon. Also, are you sure you want to call them "War Pig"? That sounds so corny. xD

Anywho, otherwise, I agree with the Templar Archive changes for certain. Archons are kinda not worth it, especially when the Guardians come - then they just die. All of them.

War Pig is the name of the Marine mercenary in SC2. As Devil Dogs are the Firebat mercenaries. I agree War Pig is a terrible name, but that's what Blizzard called them.

I think the changes to the terran infantry will ultimately come out as a slight nerf. At the moment, they have very strong AA from mass marines and reapers, if I make the current reapers (new war pigs) much less mass-able (0.75 per supply depot and 3 for 1 engineerin bay) that'll hurt them there. Because most air units are Large the new Kerrigan reapers will only do 25% of their damage, whatever it ends up being (probably in the 20-25 range) which will mean ~3-5 damage after armor with a longer cooldown and I believe slightly shorter range (6 vs 7 on range-upgraded marine?). However on the flip side, giving them units that do strong damage to Small units will make them even stronger vs Zealots, Zerglings and other small units, as will making Marauders (Firebats) more viable (by replacing Helions (Vultures) with War Pigs (Raynor Marine), essentially).

The buff to nuke would be fairly minor; currently it does 2900 dmg vs a 35,000 HP temple, or requires 13 nukes rounded up to destroy it completely. The change would be to make it do 3,400 dmg, or require 11 nukes rounded up to destroy it completely. At the moment I think nuke just doesn't make enough of a dent in the temple to be seen to be 'worth it' and most people seem to think nuke is far worse than DJ and Infest, when really my idea is to simply make it "different" and generally equal - in some ways stronger, in some ways weaker. Adding in 6-8 Helions that spawn (with much buffed stats, like 200hp/5 armor) at your temple when nuke is cast will help with defense, because the biggest problem nuke has is that it doesn't kill most things on your side of the field, so if there's a big army there you can sometimes be powerless to do anything about it if you're terran.

As for Archons, do you think 1.25 per building, or maybe 1.33 or 1.5?

Hmm, I think you should make the arma 3200 damage.
The reason why arma is not considered as effective is because the guardians still stick around the temple even after usage, which fairly sucks if you're trying to counter an infestation which creates Swarm Guardians that rape the temple quite well.
And I think 1.33 for the archon is viable.

EDIT:
Dual Terran rapes the hell out of everything. Are you sure you want to increase armageddon's strength? -.-

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 9 2011, 10:28 am by Zhuinden.

Hi Lanthanide, 1st at all please igonor my grammar and spelling as I am not either a good English speaker nor writter.
I have make modification on Desert Strike Night 2.15 as depicts below,
1.) 3 races at start
2.) Money = 40000 at the beginning
Then I have experienced few challenges to overcome,
1.) When the map is almost fully building up, the upper team (Raider Team) will experience no army being released for few route.
2.) Protos special only work on 18 to 23 sec.
My email is ryu_sigon@yahoo.com. Please write to me in order for me to release the file to you.
Last, I prefer 3 races map instead of 1 race.
Very much appreciate. BTW, I play 3 races desert strike night every day for 2 hours. However, my opponents complaint and stop playing with me for above 2 problem. please help.

Any suggestions on what to do, though?

I think this "raping" you're speaking of probably doesn't have much to do with nuke itself, though, and more the units. My guess is reapers - I recently played a game where 1 of the terrans went mass reaper with a few ghosts and medics vs my team of protoss and 2 zergs and there just wasn't much we could do to stop them, because Zerg doesn't have very good ground AoE attacks (plague is the closest) and reavers got picked off easily because reapers just ate through all the other ground units.

My idea is to replace current Raynor marine reapers with Sarah Kerrigan ghosts, as detailed previously. But I'm wondering if that actually might make the situation worse - because they do concussive damage, I'll be increasing the damage (currently pencilled in at 24), but protoss shields take 100% damage from all types, so 24 dmg vs 12 dmg on the raynor marines is actually a big jump in terms of damage output. Concussive is also 100% vs small, so zealots, high templar and zerglings will be quite punished by a high damage output like 24. So I think maybe dropping it down to 18-20 might be better, but I worry that I might end up making reapers (Sarah's) worthless.


I don't support or condone modifications to this map. That's why I 'protect' it with TinyMap in the first place. There are several reasons for this, but a big one is that actually players prefer to have one version of the map which they get to know and understand. People have expressed a lot of frustration where they join a Desert Strike game (the Queen and other variants) and have no idea what the specials will do because each version is different, or what different buildings will do, whether lurkers will be bugged or not etc. By having only 1 version of DS Night Fixed, everyone who plays it knows what to expect (barring version changes, of course).

If you've made an altered version of the map and have problems with it, fix them yourself.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jul 10 2011, 10:42 pm by Lanthanide.

I don't support or condone modifications to this map. That's why I 'protect' it with TinyMap in the first place. There are several reasons for this, but a big one is that actually players prefer to have one version of the map which they get to know and understand. People have expressed a lot of frustration where they join a Desert Strike game (the Queen and other variants) and have no idea what the specials will do because each version is different, or what different buildings will do, whether lurkers will be bugged or not etc. By having only 1 version of DS Night Fixed, everyone who plays it knows what to expect (barring version changes, of course).

If you've made an altered version of the map and have problems with it, fix them yourself.[/quote]

Base on adding 3 races, the map reached it max limit prior to the map being fully build up. The map was modified to 40000 ore for the reason to trial out the maximum limit (2 players in this case). If the map was fully build up without displaying "can not create any units", to me, mean a good map. I have observed that desert strike vQueen does have this problem (can not create any more unit) for most of the version. In another word, the number of army being released on each route was lower than the building being build. I don't like to play this kind of map as most player keep build plenty of carriers to hit the max limit, once the max limit being hit, the other opponent was not being to release the correct amount of army, then the next stage would be using special to end the game. Unless a limit being set for carriers, else there is no point to build more building as the max limit being hit by your opponent, right?

So, very obvious this map is only mean for 1 race, and too big for 3 races.

To overcome this problem, then either reducing the map size or increase the max limit.
The reason I wrote to you was mean to double confirm my observation was valid. That all.
Of course I will fix the map by myself, and thanks for reminding me.
If you do have a map with 3 races, please share with us. 3 races is more fun with respect to one race. The combination of 3 races is really something. You should try to play with 3 races. More combination result more strategy to the game.
One suggestion to your Desert Strike Night Fixed,
the army could release from differest slot instead of one for more balance.
There is 3 races map in Chinese version for Desert Strike vQueen, the map file called desert strike vQueen 5.0. This map has been very popular nowadays, and it apply 4 slots for releasing the army. The map creater is lost angle. You could download from Baidu for free. Try it and you will love 3 races desert strike night for sure.

For your update,
1.) For Protos special only work on 18 to 23 sec, indeed it did not work when map max being experienced.
1.1) To overcome special during map max, this could be improved by adding a specific unit (for example, Sara Ghost) together with Terran civilian. Special will then trigger whenever Sara Ghost being send to the boom slot.
1.2) This will improved the imbalance to Raider team. In another work, when no units being spawn during map max, at least special still work.
2.) During map max, only Queen team being spawn.
2.1) I have try reducing map size or increase map limit, however this action will only prolong the game time (occurance of not being spawn at Raider team has been reduce signifcantly). Eventually, map max will still experienced.
2.2) Base on this observance, the spawn programming is delineate as vital factor for map max. If map max being experienced, both Raider and Queen Team should not spawn at all. This problem happen to all version of desert strike vQueen, desert strike night fixed (2.15), desert strike night II (1.6) as well as desert strike vQueen 5.0 (Chinese version)
3.) If by rating the map created by you, Queen Gambit and Lost Angle,
My rating (could be bias)
3.1) In term of spawn accuracy
3.1.1) The best: desert strike night fixed, then desert strike vQueen 5.0, worst: desert strike night II (random spawn could be the problem, Gambit realized this feedback)
3.2) In term of special accuracy
3.2.1) The best: desert strike night II, then desert strike vQueen 5.0, worst: desert strike night fixed
3.3) In term of game strategy without spell and special
3.3.1) The best: desert strike vQueen 5.0 (3 races instead of 1 races)
3.4) In term of Unit balance (AI take in account)
3.4.1) The best: desert strike night fixed, then desert strike vQueen 5.0, worst: desert strike night II (Protos Reaver keep climbing without releasing boom even army standing in front, Gambit realized this feedback)

I (as well as other global player) really love this map and that the reason I wrote to you and hope to see a new version that will improve the problem during map max for a better game balance.

P/S: My observance: Map max only happen when very competitive players being meet. When advance players meet each others, and playing without using specail, you will see all the units always fighting at the middle of the map, even until the map was being fully build up (game duration last for more than an hour).

[/quote]

Lanthanide, is 2.21 an official release?

What is up with the link between allied bases and the removal of 'out of bounds' restrictions when floating Terran buildings to the other bases? Can float a CC over to an ally and start building on their land but it does not seem to spawn proper quantities of units.

No, 2.21 is not an official release.

Sounds like whoever did it, did a hack job. I'm not surprised they broke the spawning system.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure to avoid this version.

while i'm not sure whether i agree... relaying a message

(02:55:48) LoA-PhantomG: go tell the editor
(02:55:49) LoA-PhantomG: to buff protoss
(02:55:50) LoA-PhantomG: bad/.
(02:56:02) LoA-PhantomG: immortals were
(02:56:05) LoA-PhantomG: the only thing that allowed
(02:56:05) 7Pandas: or make spec little similar
(02:56:06) LoA-PhantomG: protoss to push
(02:56:08) 7Pandas: lol
(02:56:11) LoA-PhantomG: and they were dramatically
(02:56:12) LoA-PhantomG: nerfed

If he thinks Protoss needs to be "buff[ed] bad" then all I can say is that he's a bad player. I always play protoss. I usually win, although it depends a lot on my team mate (if any).

Protoss' biggest weakness at the moment is the inability to handle massed enemy units very well. We seem to be returning to the play style of older versions where everyone just massed dragoons. The changes I've got lined up for 2.20 should solve this - outlined earlier. But what I've done so far is reavers cost $700 for 1 + 3 zealots, do 40 dmg base + 2x20dmg upgrades costing a total of $300. Archons spawn at 1.33 as do dark templars, and dragoons cost $200 instead of $180. Also changed void rays to 1.20 per building instead of 1, so when you build 5 you spawn 6 each time and only increased price by $10 to $420.

Did spwan improper unit happen at the beginning or middle or end of game?
1.) if at the beginning of the game, then probably the trigger / programming need for improvement
2.) wild guess, this should be either at the middle or end of game where map max being experienced.
2.1) If the player was using terran, then what he/she tried to do is hit the map max ASAP, so you won't be able to spawn the correct amount of army, then he/she will then finish the game with special (silo in this case).
Whenever map max heppen, no more fun to play or stay in the game......!!! This is the point that I am raising in the forum.

P/S: If you like, share the link for file download, and I will have a trial on this version in order to delineate the occurance of mention problem.

Lanthanide, let me know whether modification to desert strike night fixed 2.1x version is consider hacking. Since English is not my native language/culture, hence, the wording "condone modification" seem quite strong to me. Never see Gambit using this wording in any forum that I have browsed before. I even check the website on condone modifcation, and it seem like a pretty strong wording to me.
I thought this is an open code map for anyone to modify. If the map is mean not to allow to modify, then better protect with password, like lost angle have done (desert strike vQueen 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0).
I have modified dersert strike night fixed 2.15 by adding 3 races and rename the map as "desert strike vQueen (3Zu)". I have removed the mission briefing to improve the game drop at the very beginning. If you prefer this map to cite your name, Zhuinden and Gambit, I don't mind to do so, as this was suppose to be the work of three of you, right?
If modification to your map was being consider offensive, please feel free to let me know.

P/S #1: Since adding 3 races to desert strike night fixed is a very simple trigger, why not you just add in. You could make the map to have selection of 1 races and 3 races prior to the game start, same as the selection of mineral.

For One race map,
If the game started with 10000 ore, protos would be advantage.
If the game started with 20000 ore, Zerg would be advantage.
If the game started with 20000 ore, Terran would be advantage with special.
If the game started with 20000 ore, Protos could be disadvantages.
Increase the initial ore could be an alternative to make Protos stronger to handle mass enermy units.

No. In this context "hack job" means "poor, shoddily-done work that doesn't work properly".

"Not condoning" something means that I don't approve of it or support it in any way, shape or form. That's all.

This is disingenuous at best. The map is shrunk with TinyMap2 to make the file size smaller, but it also provides an additional protection benefit. You cannot simply open the map as distributed here or on b.net with Scmdraft2, you must first run it through a program that removes the 'protection'. Therefore you know that you are deliberately unprotecting a map that was protected.

As for protecting it with a password, I was not aware this was possible until you posted here. I have investigated the program that does this and it really is quite a simple protection. Any one who knows exactly how this program works can reverse engineer it, they are not offering some "special" level of protection as you are implying, they are simply offering a password scheme that their own protection program obeys. It is possible to write another program that simply ignores whatever password you set on the map and opens it regardless - I'm 100% sure that the author of the software would have such a debug version and may even be sharing it with other people anyway.

I would prefer if you named it vLanth, rather than vQueen. But I am glad that you have not called it "DS Night Fixed x.yz", instead you have made it quite clear it is a different map.

Queen has had absolutely no input in this map since it was based on DS Night Final - all changes have been my own. Zhuinden's input has been as shown in this thread - balance suggestions and alerting me to a nasty spawn exploit. Otherwise all trigger and game system changes have been entirely my own work. I've spent well over 300 hours on this map so far, hence why I'd prefer you called it "vLanth" rather than "vQueen".

I have no interest in making this map support 3 races per player. It seems like it would remove a lot of strategy and teamwork - Zerg players can simply always build medics, and any player going vs protoss could always build ghosts for lockdown. If people want to play such a map, they can make their own, or as in your case edit their own version (which I cannot stop - I only ask that it not be named DS Night Fixed x.yz to prevent confusion).

Hi Lanth,
Thanks for taking time replying my message.
For your update,
1.) I have renamed the map as "Desert Strike vLanth (3Zu)" for
1.1) you deserve the 300++ hrs credits.
1.2) If not mistaken, this should be the 1st DS map with all the open space. The map does not required addition gas to attain more space. This is space management. Great concept!
2.) By adopting space management concept, "Desert Strike vLanth (3Zu)" start with 40k ore for money management concept. Terran special set to 10K, Zerg special set to 15K and 20K for mind control. Special will only be available after 10 mintues.
3,) Same as item 2, "Desert Strike vLanth (3Zu)" start with 3 races for unit management concept.
4.) To overcome map max problem, special trigger by unit instead of building.
5.) This map is design for 2 players (1 v 1) for the purpose to let the players understand combination of 3 races. If any player did not understood 3 races, then he / she should not go into 2 v 2 or 3 v 3 (wasting of our time). A lot of players took special as granted. They rely on special to win the game. However, they would not find special is very helpful in this map (this is another intension).

PS1: Item 2, 3, 4 and 5 does not mean for promoting "Desert Strike vLanth (3Zu)" in your form, only for sharing concept and ideal. I did not post this map in any website, just play in battle net.
PS2: Giving all the space (limit to 1 player spacing), money and unit, see how the player win the game.
PS3: Observation: Most player wait for the 10 minutes to strike for the 10K special, few go for 20K. Can you believe this! The result is obvious!!! Conclusion: Above 80% of the player took Special as the key to win the game and not focus on units. If the finding was convincing, then why spending so much time seeking for units balance, players just do not care, they only care for special. Interesting though.

Area that need improvement in Desert Strike Night Fixed 2.15
1.) Hanging or Drop at the very beginning of game whenever scout (mineral selection) showed up still happened. Even with the mission briefing being removed. Map size or network speed should not be the problem as Desert Strike Night II did not have this problem during my play. Lost angle has put trigger to activate network latency to low at the beginning of game, not too sure this trigger help to prevent game drop.
2.) Number of Carrier hanging in the field without interceptors (doing nothing, waiting to be killed). If not mistaken, old version of DS vQueen move the carrier toward enemy whenever interceptors was "finished". May be, carriers that without interceptors could move toward enemy and "boom" itself to create damage to enemy air units as alternative. Or interceptors could be re-fill. If refilling interceptor, then better put a limit to carrier as too many carrier will crash the starcraft game.
3.) Map max problem, I am thinking whether the spawning system could be like this
3.1) For case: building P1 + building P5 + enemy in the field > map limit (1650), then spawning will be building P1 / 2 + building P5 / 2.
3.2) For case: building P1 / 2 + building P5 / 2 + enemy in the field > map limit (1650), then spawning will be building P1 / 3 + building P5 / 3.
3.3) For case... Then...
4.) Spell or special that will increase damage or armour of unit/units in the field for certain duration. This action will slow down the map max.

Knowing that a lot of DS night player has modifying this map, wish that their observation / concept could be share across with others in this forum for a better new version being released in coming day.

New version: 2.22: http://www.staredit.net/files/2203/

You may find 2.20 out there as well, which is mine. But in that one the nuke does only 50 damage instead of 3200 like it should. So I put out 2.22 with that fix in it, otherwise 2.20 is the same. 2.21 is not mine, and in the interest of less confusion as well as map-name clashing DL problems, I versioned up to 2.22 instead of 2.21.

General bug fixes and tweaks

• New intro sound from SC2. Map size only increased by 13k despite the sound being more than double in length the previous intro sound - yay compression!
  
• If player abandons selection after selecting the mineral rate, then the game will start properly once the timer expires.
  
• Selection timer reduced to 20 seconds from 30.
  
• Spawn timer increased to 1:00 from 55 seconds - this should make pushing a bit more viable as the team on the defense won't be reinforcements quite as quickly. Also means doing a special mid-spawn cycle isn't as quite as punishing because there's longer to go until the enemy spawns.
  
• When silo brutalisk died it used shuttles (Warp Prism) as part of the explosion graphics, which would randomly spawn a unit (usually Dark Archon?). Fixed - now uses a different protoss unit for the blue explosion graphics.
  
• Silo brutalisk death now spawns 12 broodlings (with normal death timer if not killed). Basically borrowing from SC2 where zerg buildings spawn broodlings on death.
  
• Fixed up "Teams now balanced" message that would sometimes display at the start of the game if P1 wasn't present.
  
• When spawning units, the sequence of spawns has been moved around so stronger units spawn first. For example this means if map-max occurs in the middle of spawning, instead of having 50 zerglings and 2 guardians, you'll have 26 guardians and 26 zerglings.
  
• If player never started the game, or leaves during the middle, then their un-needed Boom beacon is removed - 1 less unit that counts towards map max.
  
• When a player spawns a hero that is already on the field, it is put into the backup holding pen and will be moved to the field when the on-field hero dies. Maximum of 1 unit can be in the holding pen. Now if you spawn a hero and there is already a unit in the holding pen, it will fully heal the hero on the field to full health (but not energy, in the case of mothership), so the hero spawn is not completely wasted.
  

Race specific changes

• Terran unit shake up: removed devil dogs (firebat mercenary), replaced raymor marine reaper with sarah kerrigan, made raynor marine into war pig mercenary which replaces the devil dogs and also the helions.
  
• Reaper (Kerrigan): 2 for $195, 80 hp, 5 armor, 18 dmg
  
• War Pig Mercenary (Raynor marine): Unchanged stats. War Pig Merc compound gives 2 at cost of $295, max of 1 (Engineering Bay).
  
• Supply Depot: $255, 1.5 firebat (unchanged stats) + 0.75 War Pig.
  
• Nuke damange increased to 3200 from 2900. Temple has 35,000 HP so now 11 nukes will kill it, instead of needing 13 (both numbers rounded up).
  
• Thor and Medivac's didn't spawn the proper units according to their base buildings (starport, science facility), fixed now.
  
• Siege Mode upgrade +$40
  
• Yamato cannon upgrade +$30
  
• Ultralisk +$20, +1 armor (4 base, 6 with armor up), +2 damage
  
• Hydralisk 3 per building instead of 3.5, +10 hp, -1dmg, -$28
  
• Spawn Broodling energy decreased to 83 and Ensnare energy instead to 125. Ensnare is much stronger in this map, so this essentially flips the casting rate over (can't control how often the AI uses them though, of course).
  
• Infestation now kills a few enemy infestation units (swarm guardians, brood lords) when it is cast as a counter. These units are probably the strongest thing about infestation, so when it is used as a counter you could end up with quite a lot of them. This is a fairly minor change though - you might end up with 5-10 fewer units, is all.
  
• Archon spawns 1.33 per building instead of 1
  
• Dark templar spawns 1.33 per building instead of 1, still 50/50 ratio of Lenassa and Zer'atai templar.
  
• Dark Archon 150/50 shields/hp, changed from 165/35. Just makes it survive longer after casting MC.
  
• Void Rays 1.20 per building, max 5, +$10 to $420. Means that 5 buildings will get you 6 void rays, and only cost a total of $50 more. Just helps with protoss massing.
  
• Collosus (reavers): big changes. $650 for 1 + 2 zealots. Base damage 40 + 2x20 dmg upgrades costing $120 and $180 (total $300). 70/220 shields/hp, 5 armor.
  
• Stalker +$20 to $200
  
• Zealot legs -$40 to $160
  
• Warp Prism -$150 to $800. Greatly improved the units that this can spawn - will now spawn dark archon/archon/high templar more often, never spawns 1 lone stalker or zealot, can spawn 2x dark templar instead of just 1x.
  
• Mothership radius increased slightly (not much at all).
  
• Carrier interceptor replenishment rate further decreased on massed carriers. At 14+ carriers interceptors will now replenish 1 every 2.33 seconds instead of 2.00 seconds. This change was made in previous versions, just extended the penalty out a little further is all.
  
• Disruption Webs are now removed from the defense cannons. Corsairs can still cast it, and in fact will do so more often now as they will keep getting attacked by them. Essentially this means the corsairs will waste their energy casting dwebs that do nothing. This acts as a debuff, and seems fairer as I never really intended the cannons to be gimped like that.
  
• Heroes hit by stasis now have their invulnerability removed. This means if your mothership stasis' an enemy mothership (or any other hero), your units will be able to attack and kill it. So you won't be stuck with an immortal mothership that decimates your army.
  

So this ended up being quite a lot of changes. Protoss should now be able to deal with massed enemy units much more now, as they can get more bang for their buck from dark templar as well as archons. The reaver change makes a big difference too, as previously you had to save for ages to get to $900, particularly in the early game, and then once you got them they would normally turn the tide quite quickly. By reducing damage to 80 from 90, making the upgrades cheaper but only giving you 1 per building they are much more affordable while still being powerful, but not too overpowering. Spawning with zealots also helps to beef up the protoss army. Stalker price increase to $200 should encourage more use of other protoss ground units in army compositions as $180 was very cheap to spam out huge armies (seemingly a perennial problem with Protoss).

Hydras are a bit weaker, but now that they have 80 hp + 3 armor, reavers can no longer kill them in 1 shot from full HP, so they should be a bit more viable now. Similarly ultralisks can now tank better.

Terran changes got rid of the useless helion while enabling terran to build firebats more readily (1.5 per depot instead of 1). Terran are probably very anti Zealot and anti Zergling now, as firebats and reapers do quite a lot of concussive damage. Reapers with 80 hp and 5 armor help to give Terran a bit more tank-ability as they don't have any high HP ground units like the Archon or Ultralisk. As most air units are Large size, the concussive damage from Reapers ((18 - armor)/4) will be considerably less than that dealt by the Normal damage of war pigs (12) except when vs protoss shields. Effectively this means the reaper has replaced the helion, but is stronger and can target air so won't be completely useless in late game like the helion was.

Known bug: forgot to remove the helion grav drive upgrade. Also the Warp Prism is probably a bit too strong now - hangs well back on the rear of your army while spawning lots of juicy units, so will probably make the AI a bit more aggressive/risky in next update.

Post has been edited 4 time(s), last time on Jul 28 2011, 9:51 am by Lanthanide.

1-

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Aug 18 2011, 9:51 pm by paaaaaran.

I cleaned it up as much as possible, but still really confused in some parts.