So I've picked up my RPG again - and am completely revamping the skills system. It was originally based around items and progression through better loot etc, with some loosely tied in skills affecting what items you can use (eg. demolitions, explosives, snipers etc...) Forcing you to specialise ultimately rendered 30 to 50% of the items in the game useless to yourself and I realise that's just bad design mechanics.

So, the new system is skill and ability based. Initially I aim on implementing 3 hero types, each with 14 different abilities loosely categorised into Passive, Active, Deployable, Aura and Summon. This is where you come in - I would like you just to list abilities that you would like to see in game.

The catch? Each ability must have at least 2 upgradeable variables - to a maximum of 4.

Here are a couple examples on what I have implemented so far, if you want to throw suggestions at me, follow this format for readability!

DPS / Generic un-named assassin hero:
Ability 1:
[Active - Transient] (edit: transient is like stimpack, can be activated while running/attacking etc)
Increases attack speed by x% for y seconds.. Has a cooldown of z seconds

Ability 2:
[Passive]
Each attack has a w% chance to inflict -x armour on the target enemy. This stacks up to y times and each instance lasts for z seconds.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Each hero can only have a maximum of 6 abilities 'activated' at any one time. You can skill all 14 abilities, and upgrade their variables in ANY way you want - but when you leave the 'town' you must choose 6 abilities (passive, active, aura, deployable or aura) which you will use until you return to town once more.

I beleive I first came across this concept on a Warcraft 3 map by Clan TDG - if I remember correctly it was a Hero Defence type game with Diablo-like heroes. Obviously I am limited to Starcraft 2 models and effects - so I won't limit you saying that abilities must be sword/melee based or magical. It is enough to simply provide the mechanic as I've shown in the examples.

Of course, credits to SEN in general and maybe a mineral bonus for people who submit ability mechanics which are cool as hell.

Some things to think about:
Disables & Interrupts (stuns, knockbacks etc)
Casting Times (instant cast, transient/stim-pack like, longer cast time for more powerful abilities)
Damage over Time effects (poisons, diseases, curses, or sci-fi equivalents)
Slows (as above)
Escape-mechanics (blink, speed, evasion etc).
Passives (armour reduction, critical strike, weakness to certain elements)
Auras (as above, including friendly effects, like hp/shield regen, guardian shield etc)

The heroes I am intending on using are:
Dark Zealot
(DPS / Rogue-like / Assassin / Speedy, fast, melee / traps for deployables / no summons / attack oriented)

High Templar
(Intelligence / mage-like / spell caster / slow moving, ranged attack / totem-like deployables / summoning oriented / disable, dps, spells)

Immortal
(Strength-tank / warrior-like / medium speed, firebat-type-melee flame attack / limited debuffing deployables / healing regenerative summons / hard hitting with a few AoE abilities / survival-based mechanics, longevity, regen, healing support etc)

Go wild. Thanks.

Items should have slightly randomized stats, e.g. 5-8 attack for a sword, and if you pick one up it might be 5 attack, and the next one might be 7 attack.

The HT should have a forcefield time slow spell like in diablo III; if you pull that off it'd be SOOO sweet.

HT/mage:
Ability One: Orb of Time. Creates a forcefield of %x radius that lasts for %y seconds. Enemy projectiles and enemy units inside it are slowed down by %z (a decimal number).

That's relatively easy

Yup I'll work on that tomorrow.

I think I'll implement it as a deployable or a summon however. The Mage already has too many targetted abilities.

hmm... that ability is working 99%... It launches a missile which morphs into a Point Defence Drone retextured with random protoss colours (gold/blue metal). Which then creates the effect for a guardian shield correctly. It doesn't slow missiles down however :s... and it should... It works fine on units - not sure if I need to increase the frequency that the persistent searches the area (to detect missiles), or whether modifying a missiles movement speed is done through altering movers as opposed to through a behaviour...


Legitimate bump. Only one suggestion? pfft. Go large or go home, SEN.

Immortal Ability: leap slam
[Active - Target Point] Immortal leaps into the air, traveling %x distance. On landing, a shockwave is sent out, dealing %y damage in the centre, decreasing the damage the farther from the centre you go.

Dark Zealot Ability: Void Rip
[Active - Target Unit] Teleports up to %x distance away, then attack speed is doubled for y% seconds, while attacking targetted unit only. Leaves a black rip effect both at start location and location teleported to for a second or so.

I managed to get the Orb of Time ability to work properly. Slows incoming missiles down to 10% of their usual speed, and slows enemy units down to 20% of their normal speed. Upgradeable to increase the duration at which the summoned effect stays (ie: the object that creates the area in which all objects are slowed). Also upgradeable to add a % chance to freeze enemy units and/or missiles completely still for 1 second.

Looks pretty swish ... I really want to be able to polish it a bit more though... Like when a Missile gets frozen - it stops completely, and falls to the ground and dies...

As for the Immortal Ability: Leap Slam... I started creating it (but did it the easy way), using a launch missile that launches an immortal at the target area. Since it is a lot easier to configure a mover for a missile than it is to fine tune Force effects for the same result. However, this causes problems in that I plan on implementing miniature orbs of time for the creeps and mobs, and it shouldn't afflict a leaping warrior. So I'll recreate that using force effects

Dark Zealot Ability - Void rip: Completed. I made it AoE target cast, he blinks to the center of the AoE and attacks enemies within the AoE with increased speed for 3 seconds. The ability became a bit too much of a 1-trick pony if it limited the attack speed buff to only one opponent. Also with it being AoE, I didn't have to mess around with target unit / target point validation. Since now you can cast it offensively (by having units in the AoE), or defensively, to escape (by having no units in the AoE). As opposed to simply miss-clicking and then no-unit would get the attack speed increase against it, and you'd effectively teleport to a possibly disadvantageous location.

Keep the idears coming.

Edit: Also don't suggest this:
Rogue trap ability - Graviton Ward: When a unit walks over the graviton ward it is lifted into the air (as if though by a phoenix), for x seconds. On falling, the unit takes y damage. Useful for disabling certain attack paths and synergies well with team-mate anti air capabilities, or just buying time.

It's too much to read, man..

If you have a playable version, please post it or say so. I will playtest

Sigh... you do know that forums are generally where words are posted online for other people to 'read'?

Reluctantly, here's the TL;DR for you:

Design an ability for a Rogue-like, Mage-like or Warrior-like hero. Each ability must have at least 2 variables (to a maximum of 4) which can be upgraded. See OP for details.

Okay, quick update on what I have so far:

Rogue:
Rogue:
1. Lethal Fury - increases attack speed by x% for y seconds at z energy cost with a fixed cool-down.

2. Void Rip (suggested by Jack) - Blink to a point up to x range away. Targets in a fixed AoE will get y% increased attack speed from the Rogue for x seconds.

3. Graviton Ward - grants x charges to place a Graviton Ward (spider mine) for a fixed energy cost. These charges regenerate over y seconds and the maximum number of charges can also be upgraded. On encountering a hostile, the Graviton Ward will apply the Phoenix Graviton Beam effect (raise unit into the air) for x seconds, upon falling the Ward will explode, dealing y damage to the unit in question.

4. Repeated Blows - Passive ability causes each attack to give a y% chance to inflict -1 armour on the target unit for x seconds.

Mage:
1. Psionic Blast - Deals instant x damage to a target unit and y damage to all nearby units within a fixed AoE. Energy cost and cooldown can be upgraded.

2. Chronorb - Creates a guardian shield effect which slows all missiles by x% and units by y% for z% seconds. The area of effect is upgradeable also.

3. Psionic Backlash - Activated ability places a buff on a friendly unit which gives x% chance to inflict y damage to a single attacker and stunning them for z seconds.

4. Stormwrath - Creates a gradual line of psionic storms from the caster to the target point. Each storm deals x damage per second and lasts for y seconds. The rate at which the line is created can be upgraded also.




To recap: each x, y and z variable can be upgraded to customise each heroes abilities. Abilities also have various traits and other features which can be upgraded and are not necessarily direct (such as the x, y or z stats).

And, I still need 37 more abilities. Go go go.

Edit: I do NOT remember posting here earlier today :s - stupid hangover buff. I need to nerf the Tequila ability so it does less damage over time :3

will a moderator/overlord please mergify this post or just replace the last one with this one?

Rogue
Ghillie Suit (meh name) - For an initial mana cost %x, the rogue is cloaked from units farther than %y radius away. (maybe costs %z mana over time?) Rogue movement speed either entirely stopped or slowed down a lot.

%y would decrease as you level it up, and %x and %z I daresay would increase. Not sure how much I like this spell, it'd pribably be situational unless there's PvP, in which case this + Void Rip would be a great combo.

It's ultimately entirely PvE and quest based. But I'm going to make just as many custom abilities and effects for the mobs as I am for the heroes. So combat won't be bland by any means. This will also hopefully allow for PvP-like encounters when a strong enemy unit attacks you with a half-decent AI.

Just to clear up confusion on the 'Leveling' of skills side of things... You have a Skill-Tree (like in Diablo 2). In fact, here is a mockup I made in paint for the Rogue:



You don't get a skill point at every level. You instead get upgrade points, which you use to customise your current skills.

So each ability only has 1 level - and that is either 0 or 1, so you have it or you don't.

You gain upgrade points (quite possibly Vespene or the 3rd custom resource) for completing quests, killing units and levelling up. And each ability can be upgraded in any direction.

In simple terms, each ability will have an X, a Y and a Z upgrade. And quite possibly 1 or 2 'one-time' upgrades which boost the skill dramatically but have a prerequisite of say 3x, 4y, 2z in that skill.

So for example,
I can upgrade Lethal Fury to last very long OR to give an insane attack speed bonus temporarily. Or I can go the middle road and have it last long-ish and make my attack quite fast.

Also:
The Rogue has a maximum energy of 100 (maybe upgradeable to 200). It increases when the rogue deals damage or uses certain abilities.
The Mage has energy which scales as he levels, acting as mana. This regenerates over time.
The Warrior gains charges for each x damage recieved. And most abilities cost 1 to 3 charges depending on their utility.

Shouldn't the warrior get charges for each time he attacks?

While the warrior does sick damage and has a few more than capable skills of laying down the hurt. His primary function is to absorb damage. He'll have the classic abilities such as Taunt (Dragon Age: Origins) / Berserkers Call (Axe from DotA) etc.. The warrior can be build in three ways (I'm hoping), such as main dedicated tank, pure warrior (dps/support tank), or even a healing/support main tank. If that makes senses.

Well it's more than that..
Reading creators' overgenerous text just doesn't communicate what sort of maps they are going for. The same situation occurs again and again, where I give the creator some great ideas but these ideas never fit their map..
it's the same thing I told Devlin... release a playable version.. even if it's the most Alpha thing you can give us...
it'd be helpful for both you and us.

---

I'm not a particular fan of Tech-Trees...
I'm all for certain skills progressing to other skills.. but a lot of the time I see abilities that make absolutely no sense together being put together just to satisfy some balancing issues or such...

Another thing that brings my piss to a boil when I play RPG's are random passive abilities that have a random chance of increasing/decreasing a random stat.. These abilities serve no strategic purpose whatsoever and are one of the most rampant disease amongst modern Gaming...
Do me a favor and either have these passives work all the time.. or just make them simpler.

Also, I already dislike your choice of Spell names... X.X

Srsly.. "Repeated Blows" blows as an Ability name.. AND it doesn't even make you attack multiple times.. it just makes enemies lose armor..
How about Something that makes sense like "Crushing Blow" or "Armor Piercer" or something
Is the rogue some sort of mage lover or what? "Gravity" and "Void" aren't what people think of when they think Rogue. Unless you're planning to do a backstory about how this particular Rogue is part of the "Gravity Field of Mages" guild, you won't fool anyone.

"Shadow Step", "Shadow Blitz" is better.. considering the Rogue is a shadowy sort of guy. Also, why would you make it buff other units? Rogues are loners and always will be. Take that out and make it do damage instead.

"Graviton Trap"... "Gravity Sapper".. "Floater Trap" and etc is way better than "Ward" .. we all know wards are from LoL/HoN/WoW

"Chrono-Orb" is better.. Pronouncing Chronorb is lame.

"Backlash" sounds like it'd hurt the user.. counterintuitive.. "Psionic Veil" "Psionic Shell", "Psionic Sheild"s are better alternatives.

Again.. i don't want to dwell on spell ideas yet.. there're plenty of ideas floating around in the SC1 threads for RPG spells.. and since SC2 is so fucking powerful (that it can make people totally neglect fingering newcomers).. spells are really up to your imagination.

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Okay, then again I DO have stuff to say

Lethal Fury is a buff... it's a horrible idea for a Rogue hero to have a first spell, which players should technically use the most, to be a buff..
What rogues need as a first ability is one that deals good damage, but requires some skills to execute/optimize..

I'll give you an example - Shadow Strike - rogue dissapears in a puff of smoke.. reappears after 0.5-1 second and does a small AoE @ area you clicked to. This requires timing, and is also risky, as teleporting to an enemy may have repurcussions.

Post has been edited 3 time(s), last time on Jun 4 2011, 5:17 am by UnholyUrine.

The names of the abilities are not final. Even in the editor they are just called Rogue 1, or Mage 2.

As stated in the op, the classes should play like the typical 'rogue/warrior/mage'. But the back story / lore / general plot of the game is Starcraft 2 based (aesthetically), and generally sci-fi based in terms of content. This is why the Rogue has Protoss like abilities which have placemarker names like Graviton Mine/Ward and Void Rip.

Regarding the % chance to inflict certain things. In short, you are wrong. I don't want to argue but the original RPGs (dungeons and dragons much?) were ENTIRELY luck based. So go roll a 2d8 and stop criticising modern gaming flaws as you so happily seem to do without much conviction in 99% of your posts.

The Rogue is DPS, his skills and abilities all focus around his primary weapon attack. There is synergy between Repeated Blows & Lethal Fury in that when you upgrade them together, the combined effect is super damaging. Attacking 5x faster for 6 seconds with a 25% chance to lower your targets armour by 1 for 10 seconds (stackable up to 15 times) - at maximum level, is basically the Necromancers - Amplify Damage ability for Diablo 2. However, it is also easily negated by a monster which can stun the rogue or disable him in any way, or also by monster abilities such as Confusion or Misdirection which causes Hero's to attack random targets or have a miss chance on each attack respectively.

The Void Rip ability applies a +attack speed buff to enemy creatures in the sense that when those creatures are attacked, the attackers gain the increased speed. This causes a potent effect when used with Lethal fury to quickly kill or severely damage a single target. It also gives the Rogue utility in group fights acting as a support skill which makes the DPS of planned Summoned Creatures/Mercenaries/Units more impressive.

And, finally, your idea suggestion: It is too similar too Void Rip. But I do like the idea that he disappears and reappears and might incorporate that into the Void Rip ability since - well, it has limited use in removing aggro from the Rogue in that his immediate current target will stop fighting him.

Similarly, you are criticizing my arguments without giving your reasons. Gimme a sensible reason as to why having %chances of doing stuff is a good idea. Also, this isn't a turned based strategy game we're talking about. This is a Real Time RPG, where player customization, skill planning and split second decisions take the lead as the core gameplay mechanics.
Also, stating that original RPGs have these mechanics just emphasizes how much developers are using them as a crutch these days. They're old as fuck.. and DnD's a turn based game!!

The Rogue as a DPS is good, but giving it Buffs is just uninteresting. It makes more sense in the Warrior/Tank..
Then again, since you only have 3 heroes, I guess it's excusable. It ought to be like .. Rogue = Tank, Mage = Mage, and Warrior = Paladin lols

I also want to point out that you seem to be falling into the same problem as ZHRPG (the first featured RPG in SC2, if you recall..)
Everything is just Numbers. They work in theory, but never work practically. It is not user-friendly, and you alienate a huge fraction of the players just because they couldn't get down to your game's system. Yes, the abilities cause enemies to die, and balances the heroes well.. But almost none of the heroes are compelling, and I see people choosing the same heroes over and over again. If you wish to grab players and deliver a fun and engaging experience for the players, the abilities must also be fun and engaging, and not just a set of numbers. The "x chances of y damage of z random effect" feels so frontloaded and boring.

It should be like ... Lethal Fury - "The Rogue goes into a frenzy, greatly improving his attack speed."
There's no need for numbers or anything.

You also talk about synergy with other abilities. But again, it's all numbers. Synergy can come from other things such as the mechanics of the ability. It's hard to explain, but I can give you an example.

In Dota, Pudge (the ugly mutant butcher thing) has three highly synergetic spells
1. Meat Hook - Pulls enemy foe towards him
2. Rot - Small AoE Dmg around Pudge, and slows down enemies
3. Dismember - High Dmg, close-ranged melee attack
In this order, Pudge is super powerful. You draw the enemy in, Slow them down, and then proceed with the high dmg close-ranged attack.
The other ability is an Defensive-Anti-Magic Ability. Which ALSO Synergizes with his spells, because Pulling an Enemy towards you is risky if the enemy is has huge Magic DPS abilities. Therefore, the defensive ability is an alternative to Dismember, in case you want to play it defensively.

There are, obviously, numbers.. But the numbers themselves aren't the core mechanics of the abilities, and aren't the ones synergizing.

Let's focus more on this hero.. Meat Hook is a High Skill'd Ability. As it has an initial delay, and the hook itself takes some time to travel. Also, it must not hit enemy creep/spawn if you were trying to hook the enemy hero. This is the sort of thing that facilitates fun and engagement. It is easy to learn, but hard to master.
But the biggest point I want to make is that, it innately has the "%chance", due solely on its mechanics. The farther away the enemy is, or if more shit's in the way, the less "Chance" you have of hitting him. However, if you're smart, or have mastered the skill, you can increase your "Chance" of hitting someone.
It's these kinds of mechanics that gets my approval.. and Any Design that features An attack that has an "Xchance" of doing "Yshit" and of "Zdmg" is just LAZY design. Unless we're talking about turn based strategy games, I have no love for these abilities.

From my standpoint, Void Rip makes absolutely no sense. If it makes the Rogue himself increase attack speed, that's okay.. But if it makes people who attack the enemy that was hit by Void Rip to have increased attack speed.. that makes no sense.. o.O

Since you've only got 3 heroes, you have to make them all very engaging.. and also make them complement each other.
I can say that from what you've set up so far.. The Rogue is the initiator, the Immortal is the Tank, and the Mage is the DPS.
Being the initiator, the Rogue needs to have High Skilled Abilities, like the Traps, which I think is a good idea.. and should also have Counter spells, which deals with certain kinds of enemies well..

So, for example, say you have Magic using enemies that shoots ranged projectiles, and Melee enemies that rush towards you, in a group. If this sort of situation is prominent in your RPG, you can give abilities that helps the rogue with these situations.
Here's two abilities that'd work great.
1. Shadow Strike - Same as I've suggested before
2. Energy Sapper - Some sort of Trap or Shield that decreases magic damage.
So, as a Rogue, you'd shadow strike through the rushing melee units, right into the mage units..
then use Energy Sapper, and take care of the mage units.. while your teammates handle the rest.

TL;DR.. you really need to take a step back and not theorize so much and use only numbers for your abilities. You need to start thinking about what sort of situations, like enemy types, boss battles, etc., your RPG will have, and how you want the players to deal with them. You only got 3 heroes, so you gotta have them complement each other in as many situations as possible. This also keys with the fact that it is SO Important for you to release an alpha version.. only then can we start seeing what sort of scenarios you have planned for us, like the one I've described above. Then we can make good judgements on what sort of abilities would fit the heroes.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 4 2011, 8:35 pm by UnholyUrine.

Players like numbers and couldn't care less about synergy, beyond IF I VOID RIP IN AND USE MY INVIS SPELL THEN IT COMBOS LIEK REAL COOL LIEK. Just because you personally think there should be nonspecific descriptions doesn't mean everyone else does. And people love numbers and randomized item stats. Just look at diablo. Imagine if the items weren't randomized stats and had descriptions like "This item does some damage" "This item does MORE damage." It would suck. Big time. There'd be an immediate shrinkage on the amount of possible items, there'd be little boasting power in having the next slightly larger sword, etc.

Sure, synergy is fairly important. But don't throw the baby out with the water; numbers are important too. I would have thought you would have learned this from the temple siege community.

I think you read a little too much into
I never said numbers should be deleted outright.
mm I agree that stats have their place in a game. It's just that they seem to appear everywhere nowadays. Most people don't get numbers.. and should be hidden in a way that can be found by the people who want to know the details.
Your Diablo example is interesting.. but it still doesn't explain why having a fixed dmg would be worse. You also fail to explain why better game mechanics would be not better than just numbers.
You can say that I'm sensitive, but it is a big concern for me.

Either way.. Temple Siege never had any numbers frontloaded... the community figured it out themselves.. So I don't see what you're getting at, other than trying to dismiss me somehow. The biggest mistake was me not staying on the ball and continuing the release of newer versions.

Most people DO get numbers. See WoW/diablo/dota/lol/hon/starcraft/most MMOs. All the people I would class as bnet noobs love seeing numbers and working out builds, because it makes them better at competing.

Fixed weapon damage (Large Sword of Doom always does 100 damage) is worse because it means a unique weapon has to be made for each attack damage the devs want, whereas randomized (Large Sword of Doom can vary between 80-120 damage) means that you could have one sword of doom that does 80 damage, and then you find another one that does 120 damage and you feel overjoyed; if it was fixed damage it'd be "ho hum another sword which is no better than the one I already have". This means there is less incentive to search for better weapons, and the top players would all have exactly the same gear.

Now, if you're talking about randomized damage each time you ATTACK, that's a different story. Critical strike is probably the best way to handle this so that each battle isn't just a numbers game.

And that's my point exactly: the community went out of their way to find the numbers which weren't as obvious as they would have liked. In league of legends, riot games has a web page with all the item stats on it and the game itself has detailed spell info, and players love it because it makes their job easier and because they love the numbers.

It's the reason that I knew you'd ask me for a reason which I criticise your arguments that I didn't give one. You don't get it. So here are a few reasons as to why % is a good idea: Luck? A sense of randomness each and every time you play? Variation in combat? Having to pay more attention to what is going on around you? A sense of surprise? Having a lucky encounter when the enemy mobs die quickly, but then having that same encounter and you nearly died because something didn't proc? A sense of realism? Combat isn't A hits B until B or A wins. Any number of things can and do go wrong. Here's an analogy for you, imagine a game of tennis where there was no % chance. You would either serve an ace or a fault 100% of the time - so even in this example with "no % chance", there is still a 50/50 chance of an outcome.


Not really sure what you're arguing here. Of course I know my map isn't turn based, I'm the one creating it. Ever heard of Planescape: Torment? Check it out. How about Dragon Age: Origins? They are both Real time and Turn based gameplay with mechanics almost identical to Dungeons and Dragons. And yes, they have % chances for almost everything. Magic resistances is % chance. Hitting your opponent is a % chance. Dodging an attack is a % chance. Getting a critical hit is a % chance.

This is the bad kind of synergy, that turns Pudge into a one-trick-pony only being able to have lots of utility when he has high health, hook off call-down, +240 mana and ultimate ready. You also don't realise that the defensive magic ability Pudge has is simply so that Rot does less damage to Pudge. And this isn't good synergy since there is only 'one way' to play Pudge, and that involves a +8hp regen shield with chance to block incoming damage, a +30% magic resist item with +8hp regen, and maybe a Bottle and a good set of boots.

Yes the numbers are the mechanics of the ability. The range of the hook, the initial damage the hook does, the damage per second of rot, the duration and damage per second of the ultimate, and the magic resistance of the enemy, the magic resistance of Pudge, and the hitpoint regeneration of both heroes too. It is all these statistics and variables relating to these abilities which produce the mechanics. Once you have these variables set in stone, you can start theory crafting other abilities which effect these variables and THAT creates synergy. The synergy you give here is akin to WoW in which every combat engagement is 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, 1, 1, 1. Or some combination thereof - ie: Hook, Dismember, Rot, Rot, Rot, Rot, Hook.


I'd be closer to releasing an alpha if this thread was used for its intended purpose. I have all the enemy types, boss encounters and environments sorted out. I need clever and unique abilities that fit one simple request: Must have between 2 or 4 variables, and be vaguely applicable to Rogue/Warrior/Mage 'generic classes'. I don't even limit you to sci fi or fantasy realms, all you have to do is come up with an ability that does something.