Why is it you think that all they do is tie up cost? The reason their overpowered is because the most important resource for Zerg is larva. You use up larva to remake Overlords. You lose larva production when that Queen dies. Now Zerg doesn't have enough units to deal with a Protoss that has made theirs in compliment of Phoenices. Because Protoss units are all stronger for cost.
The bottom line is, you're not getting it.
And this is why you're not getting it. Because, again, you think the only thing that matters are minerals and gas.

Killing one Overlord and one Queen drops the Zerg down 5 larva. Putting up a Spore crawler to deter Phoenices puts them behind 6 larva. It adds up. Very, very fast. Phoenices pay for themselves in ZvP obnoxiously easy.
It wouldn't because...

A) Queens are much slower than Ultralisks.

B) Queens die in about 2 seconds to a basic Protoss army of any composition.

C) Forcefields are too strong against Zerg to begin with. Terrans always have transports in their main comp. Protoss always have FF smashers. Zerg have be killed.

Don't attempt to discuss things when you have no idea what you're talking aobut, Cecil.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 11 2010, 1:20 am by NudeRaider. Reason: flaming. Last warning. If you can't have civilized discussi

I said "worth in minerals", that means worth measured by a value of minerals; the value itself doesn't have to be one specific thing, i.e. minerals.

Pheonixes are a heavy investment and you need to deal damage for them to even be viable, so you need to expect them to be able to do damage. The moment you see pheonixes you should just slap down a spore crawler at each mineral line. This would even out the amount of damage two pheonixes could do. If they wait to show their tech and then all of a sudden attack with 4-6 pheonixes they need to do that much more damage in order to make them worth it.

Looks like I already acknowledged larva:

Yeah queens are slower, but they would wreck shields competently on creep, which is more significant than off creep. Queens also do die quickly, but when they are mixed into an army it's harder to focus fire onto the queen. Plus, if a protoss FFs the front of a zerg army, or the army in half, the queen only has to touch a FF for an instant and then most of the zerg units can poor in. Since queens are so slow off creep, early FF breaking wouldn't be too possible, although once creep starts getting spread it would be a huge deal.

No. They aren't.
This doesn't matter. Forcefields are basically broken against Zerg right now anyways. Not as much as Phoenices, but there's a balance problem. Go ask Sen.[/color]

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 11 2010, 3:44 am by FaRTy1billion. Reason: Flaming; disregarding moderator action

Syphon, for someone who is as pro as yourself, you sure do whine a lot about zerg mechanics. First it was 'phoenixes are the most overpowered unit against zerg'. Then it was 'omg queens are broken, they need to be fixed'. And now it's that 'zerg have no early counter to forcefields'....

Cecil is right. And the way you argue is quite laughable. For a Protoss player to invest in a Stargate and two phoenixes - regardless of when in the game the Protoss player does this, if it is an early Stargate rush for queen harass or whether it is a mid-to-late Phoenix and Voidray build... The Zerg player has enough counters at every level to deal with phoenix.

If in the case that its an early Stargate, chances are your opponent has walled himself in and you didn't scout it unless you sacrificed an overlord. Then, you have been making roaches, banelings and zerglings. As soon as those phoenix enter your vision - you move out with your army and crush the Protoss player, simple. Since 450 minerals and 300 vespene (I think) is the cost for two Phoenix and a Stargate. So that's 3 Stalkers, or 2 Stalkers and a Sentry, or 3 Sentries and a Zealot which your opponent won't have.

If in the case that it's a mid-to-late Stargate, then you really should have sacrificed an overlord to scout it. And if you haven't been making extra queens or a second hatchery at your main or a fast expand, or teched up to Hydralisks or made a Spore crawler or gone for Mutalisks... - then you deserve to lose a couple overlords and a queen for being a complete and utter fool.

He is right about the Phoenixes though. They can snipe your queen - promptly causing you to have around 50% larva production. It's the equivalent of losing half your warp gates.

Not really, because you can make another queen much cheaper than more warpgates.

You can also just burrow the Queen when the phoenix goes to attack it, even if you have no hydras.

If queens were massive and therefore not able to be sniped by pheonixes, would the fast pheonix build even be a valid, worthwhile strategy anymore? It just seems like there arent any other targets for pheonixes vs zerg based on the depth of this discussion, just ovies and queens? Whats to stop the zerg from making extra hatcheries in that case the toss rushes pheonixes right off the bat? Might be less desireable than using some queen energy to get larvae, but thats what you had to do in sc1 anyway if you wanted more production capability.

We're looking from a purely production oriented standpoint though. Losing half your gates for around 45 seconds + 40 for the larvae (I think those are the number, don't quote me on it) is a lot of macro lost.

No, you need to look at it from an objective standpoint, not from purely production, because it isn't purely production that's being affected. A queen sniped would lose you only 4 larvae anyways (as far as I know), not 40.

there sure is a lot of silly theorycrafting going on in this here thread dawg


I lol'd


DO I SENSE A GRUDGE MATCH??? I'll cast it! Just let me know when!

Except per hatchery that is the equivalent of half or more of my fucking larvae lost. x2 for the queen's birth timing.

http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens2/vod/1214

Verdict: viable.

You guys are crazy, phoenixes will now rape Zerg. You could almost beat mass roaches with phoenixes now. (ok not really) plus this pretty much forces fast lair vs toss.

I actually almost think roaches are too cost effective vs gateway units, and do think that toss is underpowered in PvZ. I believe the buff to be necessary.

I'd take dirt cheap phoenix vs zerg over roaches vs toss any day. If you scout roaches (which you should if you are any good) you will be able to get something out to counter whether that be stalkers or a fast immortal.

plus, there is a quick counter to roaches (stalkers) and to phoenix you really need to get a lair.

Source

Source

Soooo... next year...

No mention of improving their horrible Chat "Channels"

Just as I've presumed.

HELP SUPPORT THE CHANGE OF CHAT CHANNELS: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1253375398

Somewhere they have said that they changed chat spam limit. I guess that was done with the second patch which I missed.