Except only one guy (here at least) said anything about the flux vanes.
I think it is an okay, almost neutral change, mostly because they made Phoenix better.

But I agree, phoenix continues to be OP against zerg... and I'm guessing that it's b/c they can snipe queens. At least that's how I see it. Again, this goes back to the whole smorgasbord about how the whole concept of the queen is wrong and unbalanced to begin with... What're your thoughts?

I actually don't really see how ZvZ is affected... but i'm melee noob, so care to explain?

---

The new chat channels are god awful...

I've made a thread on the B.net forums
PLEASE SUPPORT:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1253375398

ty

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 5 2010, 10:14 pm by UnholyUrine.

LOL. That is all I have to say to you sir.

How is that Blizzard still manages to screw up features they got right 12 years ago? It would be so easy to do it right, but they insisted on shoehorning a chat server into a tiny chatbox.

I'll give you a hint: it's not because they're incompetent or don't know what they're doing or simply bad at designing these features. It's precisely the opposite: they know exactly what they're doing, and they're doing it this way for a reason.

I'd hate to ask, since you're setting it up for us to do so..

but what exactly is this preposterous reason?

I never said I knew what the reason was. It's probable there are many reasons all bundled in together, such as security, bandwidth (by making it a lesser-used feature they save bandwidth) or plain old cost effectiveness - by limiting the scope of the feature, they limit the amount of man-hours spent on designing, implementing and testing the feature.

But it is obvious that they are doing this for a reason. You don't seriously think that a company that has made millions off D2, WoW and SC2 don't know how to implement chat channels? Regular b.net has chat channels after all, so it's not like it's a completely alien concept beyond their grasp. They never intended to implement them in the first place, but it seems customer pressure was sufficient to get them to change their minds, but that only means they will try to accomplish what the customers want within the framework they are intent upon.

*sigh*

sad, but true. It doesn't hurt trying to convince them otherwise tho..

Phoenices can hunt down and kill the Zerg supply buildings for free. The Zerg answer to this - ?

Phoenices can hunt down and kill the Zerg macro mechanic for free. The Zerg answer to this - ?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 7 2010, 9:19 pm by NudeRaider. Reason: creating a bad atmosphere

Burrow

Typically, right after lair, if you scout mutas you can either get hydras (bad imo because you can't stop the harass where you don't have creep, like say the third expansion you should be getting), mutas (whoever has more wins!), or infestors. And god was getting infestors to counter mutas fun! It wasn't better, and it didn't shut them down, but now that fungal doesn't affect them, you essentially can't get an infestor pit right after lair anymore unless you want to lose.

Source

Good changes

Spore Crawler

Burrow

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 8 2010, 1:01 am by Artanis186.

Spore Crawlers are a waste of money, and if you have them all it does is force you to clump your Overlords over them. Where they are easily killed, useless, and obscure your own vision.

Burrow does nothing for Phoenices killing Overlords, and is a waste of APM and time to constantly burrow and unburrow Queens.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Dec 7 2010, 9:20 pm by NudeRaider. Reason: flaming

The difference between them and Missile Turrets being? It's not like you have to cluster them up, just put some bordering the base and put them somewhere in the center of it. Or you can just let them freely take down your Overlords without resistance. Besides, are Vikings not even more powerful than Phoenixes, with more range? What would you do vs Vikings?


Slight APM sink or wasted minerals/gas/time/macro ability? That's up to you.

That costs hundred of minerals that could be used to, you know, make units. Also, they're from drones, so it costs minerals, larva, and mining drones. I'd rather just fix pheonices.
I play toss, and even I agree Pheo are wayy too strong against Zerg. As a toss, I have no experience with TvZ, so I don't know anything about Vikings. However, Pheo are damn quick and fire on the move, which makes them ideal for harass. I'm sure technically a Viking would kill and overlord faster, but not as effectively as a Pheo in terms of harass.
And actually, I think Queens and Pheo are quite fair at the point it's at. I usually put a cannon or two by the mineral line, so I think it's okay to spend the 75 or so minerals to defend the queen + mineral line from pheonix harass with a single spore crawler. I just don't think using them to protect your whole base from Pheo is a good use.

Ah... No Chat channel changes.
I have failed
despite the support of the majority of people

@Syphon: When I say something along the lines of "LOL - is all I have to say to you". Why do you continue to try to provoke a response?

If you're half as good at SC2 compared to a 5 year old, you'll know the importance of scouting. You see a Protoss player, you see his lack of 4-gate, robo and oh wait, is that a Stargate?! I think it is...

Make another queen. Done.

That answered your question?

The difference between Spore Crawlers and Missile Turrets is that Supply Depots aren't airborne.
Don't fix Phoenices. FIX QUEENS. Make them Massive. One little change, affects nothing else since they aren't fast enough to smash forcefields offensively.
Because you're wrong, and I am correcting you.

Because 2 queens beats 3 Phoenices. Oh wait. No they don't.

I'm pretty sure I'm better than you at SC2 if you're playing against Toss who don't wall off against you playing Zerg. You see a Protoss player with a gate/core/zealot wall what are your options? EDIT - Surprise, surprise, I am much better than you, and you don't play Zerg either. So your opinion is completely irrelevant.

A) Blind counter - What if he's going 4gate all in? Get some hydras off one base!

or 4gate robo?

Oh... Uh, expand and get some hydra/roach/corruptor off 2 base!

But what if he's forge fast expanding? Oh... Uh expand, tech up to ultras or broodlords, and use your superior economy to thwart his turtling ways!

Well what if he's getting Phoenices to easily cripple your macro and supply cap you?

Oh... Uh, mass up spore crawlers and Queens, while your lings and roaches handle his base!

But what if it's a 4gate all in?

...Fuck. Then option b!

B) Scout his ass!

Sorry, you're playing Zerg and by the time you get a scout in his base he's either going to have cannons which will prevent you from seeing a hidden stargate/robo bay/shrine/archives, or he'll be so far into it that you'd better hope your blind counter was right, because 200 misspent minerals will cost you the game.

C) Roach rush

I hope he has shitty micro, or yours is impeccable.

D) Get creative!

If you're lucky, you'll win through a Nydus Worm, or careful Baneling micro. This is what Zvturtletoss comes down to. Luck, because certain parts of the Protoss arsenal are particularly overpowered against Zerg. Whodathunkit.

So no, making another queen did not answer my question. 2 Queens per base protects against a 1xVoid Ray rush. Not 3-4 Phoenices. The Phoenix buff is ludicrous without making the Queen massive.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 10 2010, 9:54 am by NudeRaider. Reason: flaming again

Terran and Protoss macro mechanics lie within their command center and nexus. The zerg however, have a separate unit that also acts as basic base defense. Hatcheries cost 100 minerals less each (50 if you count the drone, but it still takes an scv or probe to make a nexus or CC), and so the cost of the queen needs to make up for it's worth. Sure, queens can be killed, but you can make another in a minimal amount of time. The cost it takes to even kill a queen with pheonixes isn't ever going to be worth it: 150 minerals and 100 vespene per pheonix to kill a queen that costs like 150 minerals. It would take at least two pheonixes to kill a queen, and that's a cost of 300 minerals and 200 vespene to slightly delay a larva inject. One spore crawler at each base will be enough to deter pheonixes, and this shouldn't be hardly a problem for you. This is because you should already have evolution chambers in ZvP, so you don't even need to invest in the necessary tech to make a spore crawler. Spore crawlers only cost 75 ( 50 for drone) to create. Imagine if a Protoss makes two pheonixes, and you respond with a spore crawler -bam, they are unable to harass the mineral line or kill your queen. Now, they have to just scout and kill overlords if they get the chance. Two pheonixes would need to find and kill about 6 overlords to make up for their 300 minerals and 200 vespene, not even mentioning the cost of the stargate!

The bottom line is, a Protoss is going to need to deal 450 minerals worth of damage, and 350 vespene worth of damage, and gain scouting info in order to make two pheonixes worth the cost. At the time when two pheonixes can be made in the early mid game any scouting info gained isn't going to be very significant, and hallucinations could have done the job anyways. By showing pheonixes, you also tell the zerg that you are going to have 450 less minerals, and 350 less vespene to sink into something else. Unless you deal the damage the pheonixes cost somehow, then you're going to be at a loss. I seriously doubt that two pheonixes can ever be worth it. I actually doubt that pheonixes themselves is ever worth it unless the zerg goes for mutalisks. Whenever I see a protoss go for a pheonix opening, they usually are planning to coax the zerg into teching to hydralisks, so that they can then tech to collosus. This strategy works as long as the zerg isn't able to gain a critical mass of corrupters -if they do get that amount of corrupters, their hydralisks/roaches can take on the gateway units easily. This is why you see more and more templar play that leads into collosus tech, as templar can storm clustered air units (the same goes for templar into carrier/voidray).

If queens were massive they would completely nullify protoss FF play, and then all of ZvP would be broken; Protoss relies on force fields throughout the entirety of ZvP until the zerg finally techs to broodlords or ultralisks.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Dec 11 2010, 1:16 am by NudeRaider. Reason: even a belittled flame is still a flame