The Pitch

Alright, so apparently there is some interest in making this into an SC2 project to get a hands-on feel for the features. I am not aiming to make this a public-hit, it is more so a test for our own ends to further the project. For quite some time, this is going to be an SEN-only map and your friends can play, but I don't want to release it until it is in a beta-type status. That is far in the future though... So let's just toss that aside. Anyone who doesn't know what a MOBA is, the term was coined by Guinsoo who created the ideas for recipes and runes in Defense of the Ancients, but is now working for League of Legends. It stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, which defines what Defense of the Ancients(DotA), Aeon of Strife(AoS), Heroes of Newerth(HoN) and League of Legends(LoL) all are.

So to start off, we are going to need people to design the terrain. Seeing as a jungle with the standard river and everything has been done over n over... Let's do a destroyed/burning/ruined city theme for the map. We can make the river polluted and everything to give it a unique feel. I would like to have multiple people working the terrain, to get multiple perspectives on it. These people should not mind having to edit the terrain once it is 'finished' over and over, to fix points of interest and bugs that may appear: Such as being able to fit through gaps they shouldn't be going through or sight imperfections.

For the other half, we will need coders. People who can hard-code hero stats, items, unit stats and menus. I am planning to make a whole "unit selection" screen that replaces the actual game with a picture and puts up more pictures/dialog for picking heroes before the gameplay actually starts. To include a shop as well with more dialog boxes that are clean and easy to use. I am not too familiar with the coding side of the house, but I am told that everything that can be triggered, can be coded better. So my assumption lies that they have the same features available.

Once a team is assembled (lol, assembled) I will make a SC2 project topic with the entire outline of the map. This is not at all a rush project like I have been doing for the past few years, this map will entirely be somewhat of a... Game Pitch. Maybe we can use it to get hired by a game company, eh? Now I know that SEN has a MOBA-like project already, popularly known Temple Siege by UnholyUrine. I am willing to collaborate together in the endeavor to make an enjoyable experience, but for those who like the way Temple Siege is designed compared to what we have here, feel free to venture towards it instead. This game has it's own elements while TS has it's, even with the welcoming of ideas that it has to be assimilated into this monster of a MOBA.

Project Name Ideas:
Fable of Souls
Spellcaster Arena

Feel free to submit more! I have never been good with this, so definitely come up with your own ideas for what it should be named.

Heroes/Stats:

Stamina - Increases Health and Health Regeneration
Strength - Increases Physical Damage and Reduces incoming Physical Damage
Agility - Increases Ranged Damage and Reduces incoming Ranged Damage
Intelligence - Increases Energy and Energy Regeneration
Constitution - Increases Critical Chance for Auto-Attacks

Heroes will have four spells/abilities, three with a maximum level of 7 and an ultimate with the maximum level of 3. Their maximum hero level will be 20, meaning they only get a total of 20 points allocated. This will require them to choose what spells they want to be higher in level, since they would need 24 points to get the maximum of each. They can max out two and their ultimate, but have one skill barely leveled or distribute the points evenly.

An additional route to go is to have each ability with two alternatives, meaning a total of 8 different skills, but once you take one, the other option of it becomes unavailable forever. This would add further customization into the game and determine the outcome. If this turns out to be too imbalanced, it can just be made into a special set of heroes, as I am sure we will have. Something like how the invoker was in DotA as his skills were different from all of the others.

Items/Inventory:

In this game, there is an inventory max of seven total items. Two of these seven, are special inventory slots: One of them must contain movement enhancements (Boots) and the other, a Spell Book. As in both DotA and LoL (HoN is basically DotA...), everyone always had a pair of boots at some point in the game unless you weren't taking it seriously. Why not just make a slot entirely devoted to boots? You won't ever miss the slot, because the game will revolve around having it there and won't be "1 less inventory for other items."

The other half of these special slots, is your Spell Book. In every MOBA, every hero has had a "core item" or something that was rushed, to define how you played the rest of the game. I am including LoL's Summoner Spells into this category, because they fill the same niche. Taking another idea from LoL, is their "stacking" items or the individual hero abilities. By combining all these ideas, you have the Spell Books, which enhance your hero and/or give it special abilities on top of what they already possess. Your Spell Book's effects are buffed as you get more kills or assists, but overall depending on the SB (getting tired of typing Spell Book) itself, will determine it's leveling requirements. When you meet one of it's cons however, most likely this will be death, it will lose experience/power and the effects it holds will decrease.

For the entirety of items, I plan to start off small with items that increase the core 5 statistics, a few pairs of boots and a handful of Spell Books. This is to include what "ingredients" will be in those items, depending on the end prouct's effects. What items we add after that will be to fill imbalances between the heroes that are not them being overpowered, simply counters. I think that this is the best method we have for a game we plan to design entirely from scratch with as little stealing as possible.

Neutrals, Runes and Buffs:

I know that this a huge part of gameplay, which will be carefully approached. I don't entirely like the idea of Roshan/Kongor or Baron, so this will be something to really think about. I like the approach LoL had on the subject by making a lesser form that provides only gold though, so something to this extent will be explored. As for Neutral camps, again, I don't want to copy anything entirely. We need individuality, but the need for Neutrals is no doubt, neccesary.

Runes in DotA/HoN are something that I really loved. They add the need for players to have more map awareness than just "oh hey everyone is missing, they must be at Baron." One hero going missing, grabbing a rune and making a ruckus really added to the teamwork factor of the game. Something to this extent would make a big impact on the gameplay. Red/Blue buffs don't really count, when a hero goes missing for X amount of time and your kind of like, "What the hell?" ...They were probrably farming a buff. It's no different than having an additional item that you worked for, not that big of a deal. I admit though, for heroes like junglers or ones that need that small achievement without having to do much work, can really make/break. All of these aspects are up for discussion.

Towers, Creeps and Barracks:

LoL had it right with Creeps and Barracks, the fact they spawn at the main structure and how many there are. The respawning barracks was also a huge success, because taking the opponent's barracks away really crippled them and required them to defend that lane much heavier than before because the creeps would naturally push on their own. By defending that lane until the barracks respawns, you could then proceed on to pushing without worrying to defend but still be wary of a push from the lane.

Now they fucked up the Turrets/Towers in LoL, they just... Suck. Too commonly was a hero able to enter it's range, kill you and walk out with relative ease. In HoN/DotA, unless they at least did a 2v1, this wasn't possible. Even if they did 2v1, if that tower targetted them and they took more than 2 hits, chances are they had little health or were dead from both you and the tower hitting them. I plan to give the towers that additional edge from HoN and tell the LoL pricks that they were once feared obelisks of might.

As for your actual creeps, each lane will spawn three Physical units, three ranged untis and a third 'ballistic' unit that deals additional damage to turrets but recieves additional damage from them as well, but the towers target the creeps in that order: Physical, Ranged, Ballistic, Hero-Controlled, Hero. Physical units will have more health than ranged, ballistic will have high health but deal low damage to everything but towers. Their all-around stats are still to be determined through testing though.

Terrain:

Now, I m made a really random 3 minute outline as to how I feel the map should be like. Discredit me for taking the idea off of HoN's Watchtower map, but it is highly under-rated. It has amazing new ideas as far as gank areas, pushing differences and really, really, REALLY nice idea for a complete layout. Here is the basic idea:



Itit has no real layouts or definition, but for a general idea. The reason there are so many curves, is that it makes you weary of ganks from the cliffs or forest by your tower, also adding in the element that your tower can help in certain situations beyond lane control, enhancing the caution your enemies and allies will employ dependent on where that tower is located.

Now I have a different idea to enhance ganking a little more to give aid to the side lanes. The area with grass, lets cut that down and make it closer to the center. So the bottom left and top right are now going to curve in more like a circle. The image isnt entirely accurate because I could feel that they could get closer, but this is all to be determined with actual design and testing.



The legend for this is that the brown would be 'raised' terrain and the stronger neutrals would roam. Anyone who has played a MOBA/AoS style map before, knows what I am talking about. The green represents the weak area where the weaker neutrals and good juke-ing spots would be. The blue represents the well-established river that has been in every MOBA, which we can tweak however we want, but it is the lowest terrain and presents a risk of running down it, as everyone above it can see you and you cannot see them. This is something that was removed from LoL that never should have been. The black lines are the creep paths, the dots represent towers/barracks/main-structures, color-coded for teams.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 28 2010, 7:19 am by LoveLess.

I love how SEN has "so many" (3) Community Projects.
I can help on some of the triggering, but I'm not really a pro. Give me little systems and I'll be happy.
The best I've been capable of so far in triggers is shown in my Swarmed Heroes map... not much. >_>

*sigh*

Ah, what the heck. I'll contribute my data editor skills. And hopefully not panic and almost go to the hospital again this time as a result... >.>

I'd randomly thought of some heroes that you dudes can have.



Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 28 2010, 1:51 pm by Biophysicist.

What map size would you like the "base map"? And would you still like that for the base map, or the classic forest feeling and "re-skin" it later?

Sounds good Payne and appreciate the interest from everyone.

For starters, we will need a template of the map itself. Like I have stated, going away from the traditional trees and wilderness feel will separate us from the rest of the MOBAs. So let's start with an idea around what I posted, how the lanes, towers, "forest" and "cliff" areas are/structured. Modify them however needed and use levels as you desire, though the river should be the lowest and the bases higher than the areas around them, the lanes all one level as well. There is no size really... But it should take roughly 20 seconds for a wave of creeps moving at the rate of a zealot, to reach their "lane collision" area, defined where the lines just stop in the picture. Try to use that as a base marker for how big the map is, because I honestly have no idea. How you design it is up to you, just post what progress you have made where you feel necessary to stop and get the opinions of everyone here.

Now for a list of what we will be needing after the terrain is done, that anyone can start on:

Towers, Physical Creeps, Ranged Creeps, Ballistic Creeps, Barracks and the Headquarters buildings: I suggest that they be mirrored, exactly the same appearance and then just modify them from there to make them different, yet the same units. The basis for these units should be all Terran, so let's make the Physical Creeps mini-Marauders with short range/melee attacks, Ranged Creeps mini-Marines, Ballistic units Siege tanks. The building are up for your own interpretation. Each creep wave consists of 7 units, 3 Phys, 3 Range and 1 Ballistic. It should take teach wave, upon reaching each other, around 20-25 seconds to killed without any outside help. Since each creep Wave will spawn every 30 seconds, this is create our "push" factor. Towers should kill the units like so: It targets them Phys, Range, Ballistic, Hero-Controlled, Heroes. It should kill Physicals in 3 hits, Range in 2, Ballistic in 4 (the third leaving it at almost no health). Remember that Ballistic should have high hp, but the towers and ballistics deal additional damage to each other.

And as Bio posted, you can submit as many heroes as you want to us. When we get down to actually creating heroes, we will need ideas and posting them here will help with originality. Remember that we are using SC2, so try to make it viable to add and remember we aren't in medieval wonderlands. We haven't really thought of an idea for story as to why the units are here and fighting each other: Maybe it is some sort of gladiator arena and each side has means of reproducing heroes/items, but it takes time the better your hero and items are.

For "Hero Selection", may I propose using the system I've made for Swarmed Heroes? I find it better in the sense that you actually get to see the Command Card and Stats of the selected Hero.

If you need an additional person for triggers, I would be happy to help. I'm a tad inexperienced in that I haven't really completed a map yet, but I got second place in the August mapping contest, and I basically only used triggers.

I'm pretty good at debugging and such, especially with triggers. I'm also good with trigger maths.

I feel I must get opinions at this point. I have completed the Creep Lanes and the cliffs are to be used to help me with testing the time taking to collision. Currently my data is:

• Left: 30 secs
  
• Middle: 20 secs
  
• Right: 25 secs
  

Of course these are approximate and not exact. These times are from the base to the collision points and the bottom team. I just need to know if these creep lanes are all right before continuing.

The buildings on the map are the temporary placements and are to be replaced with the real buildings when completed.

Note: I have never played HoN, only DotA and LoL.

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That is actually what I had planned, but with hero tool-tips, maybe some kind of picture, list of abilities and a miniature description of it, along with their base stats/stat gain displayed. I am looking to actually have something very similar to HoN, how their heroes are all listed in the center and when a hero is picked, removed and shown on that player's slot. Let us think of the loading screen with the map in the center and players on left/right of it, as a starting point for this. I hate command card picking as well.


That is actually quite close to what I had in mind for the map! However, to make the base a little more dreaded to enter, towers were designed to keep people out. To even this out, I propose: Bring the bottom base towards the tower on the left, so that it's barracks is almost touching the tower, though give sufficient room between the two to run behind, using to block units from you if needed. Now middle is going to have to move because of this drag, this is okay. I like the idea you have for drastic moving between them, but if you were to try to gank someone running back to base, there is a strong possibility of them seeing you and... Well, the towers gang-raping your face. The towers in LoL were extremely short distance, this will not be the case in this. Looking at the map, I guess I came across what range I hope to be looking at: Imagine that the middle lane's towers just barely overlap fields of fire directly in the center of them.

As for the right lane, the towers are way too close to eachother for an outside lane. Keep the lane design the same, just bring the towers further towards the left.

Other than that, you had a really good grasp on the lanes I was looking towards and general size. And since the lanes are structured as they are, middle can come support an aggressive lane much faster than go for a gank, which is ideal.

Edit: I meant to say mirror this for the top. But that's kind of a durr hurr

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Nov 28 2010, 8:11 pm by LoveLess.

I have taken what you requested (I believe) and edited the terrain. This leaves me with:




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From what we can tell for now until testing is done, it's as far as we go. Looks good to me.


Hm... Sorry to change my mind all of a sudden, but you know how this is gonna be during such an alpha idea of the map. To minimize the time it takes for you to travel through the lane and minimize gank protection, lets do this: Make the lanes that the creep go along more defined like a circle or a parenthesis, so that it reduces the time. I want to shoot back for a 20 seconds. Also, see what you can do about getting it back to how it was before with the 20 for middle and ensure that the creeps reach the right side faster (for top) and slower for left. This just requires a longer lane distance. We will add terrain to seperate them and increase "gank" potential for those who are running back from near death.


It will be the same height all the way through. I see no need for anything but the auto-cliffs in this. The river being the lowest, the lanes/jungle being one level higher, then the hard jungle being one more height than that and the base that same height as well.

I have learned a decent amount from making heroes for the other community project. I would be glad to be able to help with this one as well.

Guessing your talking about TS. I actually like a few heroes from it, like the Ghost Illusionist guy, the Mutant Zergling and Medic. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few of them transfer over with some changes for balance and gameplay needs. I doubt UU would mind since we have worked together in the past. Submit any ideas for heroes and gameplay videos will only boost support/possibility of these heroes. It would actually be preferred so we get the general idea of how it works. Once we get the lanes and basic map template worked out, with creeps and towers, feel free to edit the map with your hero added. Make them now in stand-alone maps with all their skills/abilities even if their not level-able or anything.

So you want the terrain to be made on the first cliff level, then lower it by one for water, and increase it by one for cliffs/the base? The major issue I see with that regarding the water is that you have to rely really heavily on ramps.

EDIT:
Temp is talking about the project that payne started.

Lol no I was talking about Infiltration RPG/Swarmed heroes

Ramps have always been key-choke points in DotA and HoN, but was removed in LoL because it has an entirely different style of play. You never wanted to fight heroes that were up a ramp from you unless it was a full fledged team fight and even if it was, chances were that you would bait them down from the cliff or have teammates already up there. Then again, this is entirely subject to change if somebody has an alternative like making custom cliffs and such, which I have seen and had done before. It would also be easier to edit, but take longer to initially create and structure well. If the terrainers want to pursue doing the later style, I would be more than optimistic for it. An example of what I am talking about is attached.

And oh.

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That example map looks much better than the default cliffs, and would be really easy to recreate here.

I guess I made the sides approximately 25 seconds and the middle about 20 seconds. (The sides in DotA and LoL usually arrive slower than the middle lane)
I added a zealot to help test the river levels.
I don't think I can do much more than this, I'll try until another terrainer comes and edits the terraining more.

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The problem that I see with doing the latter form of terraining is LOS. Units on low ground could see to high ground, even if it didn't look like they could. I don't know how central that may or may not be to this project, but in general people want realism - so unless you're going for 3rd person as opposed to overhead, I would recommend using the cliffs as normal. I'd also be willing to terrain it if no one else is doing it yet.

I got a Zealot to the top right and top left turrets in 17 seconds on that map, and a Zealot from the top left to top right turret (across the water, basically) in 25 seconds. Doesn't that seem really short?

Also I know I'm pretty biased because I love how League of Legends does it, but the base seems kind of cluttered especially if groups of units are spawning.