Does anyone else have this weird craving to see NPCs fight each other? I think this is why I will like this map, or why I liked AoS and Normandy, because I got to watch two huge computers duke it out, quite a sight. One of my maps was basically just a straight rip of AoS. Only thing in Normandy is that they were basically useless without you. The abilities and classes look cool, maybe I should make my Normandy map, I just love the playstyle of invasion with heroes against NPCs. Playing against humans are cool, but with only human allies, things can get a lot more lax and people won't be getting pissed if they were in the computer's position getting owned on all sides (basically like a Cat in a Cat and Mouse game). Also, quick question on the medic, I'm assuming it will have it's own standard attack right? Because it's lame being a healer without a weapon.

Yeah that could work for the Injection concept. I was originally toying with the idea of having the Covert Op place mines, so maybe I can combine those.

As for Mechs, I'm actually adding a tank mercenary and a banshee mercenary (with ground flags, though) to choose from, though I haven't messed with them yet. I chose the ground Viking for the main Mech Op because it's one of the cooler looking vehicles to me. I was thinking about making the Mech's tech spec thing into different types of shockwaves. Like one that just pushes enemies back, and another that actually lifts them into the air and stuns them. I'm still toying around with ideas, though.

Yeah, I love maps like that as well. It will be impossible to win this without the players, definitely.

The healer will have a weapon. I'm sure no one would ever want to play it if it didn't. I'm also going to add one or two abilities to it that make it a viable damage dealer as well, so hopefully people would want to play it. Having a healer isn't necessary at all, but there will be mini-bosses that you'll have to face in this map, so the extra heals would come in handy sometimes.

For abilities, I notice there's nothing like a suicide or kamikaze attack That would be my suggestion.

There's just some situations where you're going to die anyways, maybe you want to take some others with you

Since you lose when you run out of lives, I'm trying to avoid anything like that. Even if you know you will die, you should want to prevent that so you don't lose.

Maybe it could be a passive effect? Something like "If you die while using X, profit!" where X may be a preexisting ability.

So it's like, if you don't die, great! If you do, then not so great, but maybe not a total waste either.

Stop thinking Alpha Marines, azrael...

If there are items, you can make an item called "Kamakazie Suit" and then make a big explosion when someone dies

A spell that is suicidal probably isn't the style that Devlin wants to do...


I think you sorta missed what I was trying to say..
In ZHRPG, I hated the fact that, for example, Blink was a Tier 3 spell.. and it sucked!
Actually, most of the spells in ZHRPG is almost negligible compared to the normal attacks at the beginning of the game (meaning no points put into the spell) (SOTIS is also guilty of this). It's not exactly bad, because it does force the players to make a choice, but it's just boring.

I also really hate things like "putting points into this will increase the spell dmg by 5/5% .. or increase weapon speed .. or life regen by x%" .. it's too much to read, and it barely makes any difference.

Each spell should be effective at the point they're gotten. And with each spell upgrade, the spell should be significantly better.
That's what I'm trying to say.

There are no level requirements for abilities. You can put a point into any of the 6 spells from level 1. If you wanted, you could also max out all 5 levels of a spell by level 5. It's entirely up to the player.

I don't mind how DotA or LoL do it where you are forced to choose something else every now and then, but I'd rather just leave it up to the player.

Minor Update!

Here's the selection screen when you first start the map. Ultimately it will also have a timer so people don't AFK out at the start of the game. When the timer runs out, a mercenary is randomly chosen for those who haven't picked yet.

Mech Operative
Removed "Seeker Missile."
Added Missile Array: Fires a set of missiles at the target area. Leveling this ability increases the amount of missiles fired by 2 (starting with 4 at level 1)

Covert Operative
Modified "Injection" to Injection Mine: Places a mine on the ground that eventually explodes, shooting needle-like missiles in all directions. Various types of upgrades can be purchased to add buffs or debuffs to the needles (i.e. damage over time, slowing poison, etc.).

Assault Commander
Added Speed Burst: Increases the movement and attack speeds of the unit as well as doing minor fire damage to surrounding units.

I currently have 6 mercenaries planned, but I'm considering increasing that to 10. So far I have a Reaper, Marine, Ghost, Zealot, Viking, and Medic. I'm thinking of adding a Tank, Vulture, Spectre, and Marauder.

I'm also having trouble with the ability leveling. Spending a point to get the first level of an ability works fine. After that, the ability is grayed out so I can't upgrade any further. I'm sure I'm just not doing something correctly in my "learn" ability. I'll figure it out eventually, this is just a huge hindrance at the moment.

I'm also finding the transition from SC1 triggering mentality to SC2 very difficult. I'm so used to having to think of things in terms of switches and counters, and not at all used to variables. In SC1, I'd have a death counter representing a player's choice and then when everyone has picked, I create the units based on that count and go from there. In SC2, it feels so overwhelmingly complicated that I'm almost finding myself going back to that method rather than embracing the variables. I'll figure it out soon, but it's a tough bump to get over.

Would it be possible to do what Yoshi did in his SF map where you basically select your race in the lobby and it chooses your hero? I don't know if that would be better or worse integration in the map, but it seems like a neat feature that could easily be used, but I don't know what the limitations of that are. Also, you don't think a person going all one level of an ability would be overpowered in the early game? Assuming the ability scaled normally, it'd always be more beneficial to focus on one ability rather than two? Because usually the returns are much better on a higher level ability. Also, will you be doing sort of "enemy takes back" certain areas of the map in this, similar to how Normandy did it? I'm pretty sure the triggers in Normady were if enough units got to the hill, they would take it back, which was cool sometimes but extremely annoying other times. Also, because there is a landing zone, does that mean you can only lose if all the players have died or time has ran out, because the enemy can't reach your ally?

It is possible, though that assumes everyone would know the abilities and whatnot of each hero. I think it would just be easier if they choose in-game.

Theoretically, yes, but I plan on making it so that various abilities are better or worse depending on the enemy. For example, many of the early-game enemies are light armored infantry so an ability like the Mech's "Missile Array" that does 100% damage to light armor would be fantastic for farming early kills, but when you face the first mini boss and see that your ability does 50% damage to it when another ability would do 100%, then you will run into problems. I am still debating on whether or not I want players to be able to level one ability as high as possible without touching other ones as well, but perhaps I will make it more like LoL or DotA. I'll think about this one a lot. For now, I'm still trying to get my abilities to level properly, or make the abilities in the first place, so I have time to figure this one out.

Yes, totally. Aside from being able to recapture parts if the enemy has more units, there will also be the occasional surge of retaliation that will either sneak attack those posts or just try to push harder.

Theoretically, yes. I don't think I've ever been in a Normandy game where the enemy was able to reach the landing area, but in this map I'm going to try to make it as balanced as possible near the beginning so that without any player involvement, it should be a stalemate between computers. Also, another significant change from Normandy to this map is that there is no base to go back to if you need to heal or buy anything. My goal is to have everything set up with various stores and menus in the UI so you can purchase things while you are invading. I may or may not also have supply drops that come to you when you purchase upgrades or items.

EDIT:
Update!

Mech Operative -
Repair: Increases the passive health regeneration of the unit, and when activated will repair the unit for 10/15/20/25/30% if its total health over X/X/X/X/X seconds. The unit is incapacitated during this time, but can still be attacked.

Covert Operative -
Scope: Passively ncreases the range of the unit's attacks by X/X/X/X/X, and when activated will cause the unit's next attack to deal 200% damage.

Infanrty Commander -
Cruise Missile: Fires a missile in the target point's direction, dealing X/X/X/X/X splash damage to the first enemy or enemies it comes in contact with.
Ironclad: Passively increases the unit's life armor by X/X/X/X/X, and when activated will cause the unit to charge the target area and stun nearby enemies for X/X/X/X/X seconds.

Psionic Tactician -
Void Discs: Incapacitates the enemy and deals X/X/X/X/X damage for X/X/X/X/X seconds. Damage done, splashes to a small area around the target as well.
Siphon: Passively increases lifesteal by X/X/X/X/X, and when activated will create an aura around the unit that deals lightning damage to one nearby enemy within the radius for X/X/X/X/X seconds. If that enemy dies, it auto-targets a new unit to attack.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Oct 21 2010, 8:52 pm by DevliN.

seems like a good rpg so far... keep going with it

Devlin, please, use photobucket.

I have a Photobucket account, imageshack has just been easier.

Skill Suggestions
// MECH OPERATIVE
- Re-Assembly : A mech is released for mech (requires X amount of scrap) and releases X amount of droids with X stats which will attack for the Mech until they die (AI controled or player control not decided yet)

// COVERT OPERATIVE
-Stealth Cloaks for X amount of time (attack or spell turns of cloak?)
-

// INFANTRY COMMANDER
-Call down Shuttle drops X amount of soldiers

// MEDICAL TACTICIAN
-None

// ASSAULT COMMANDER
-Releases X amount of mines which will detonate when commanded to or when someone walks on it has charge time and will be stronger when X amount of time has charged

// PSIONIC TACTICIAN
-None

Re-assembly is similar to the Mech's self-repair skill. I was trying to avoid having him attack while repairing so that it isn't extremely OP.

Stealth definitely works, I just always see that skill as a cop-out. I probably wont be able to avoid it, though, and that will most likely be the Covert's [T] ability.

The Infantry Com's call down unfortunately is too similar to the Assault Com's "Rally" which does the same thing.

The Assault Com mines idea is neat, but I already gave a mine-ability to the Covert (and his mine ability can be modified in various ways anyway, so ultimately it would be very similar).

UPDATES!
Infantry Commander [Q] Railgun: Shoots a seemingly endless stream of bullets at enemies in front of the mercenary, dealing X/X/X/X/X damage for 5 seconds.
Assault Commander [E] Flamethrower: Emits a burst of flames in a cone in front of the mercenary.
Psionic Tactician [W] Psi Slash: Cleave attack that hits multiple units in front of the mercenary for X/X/X/X/X damage, and 10% of that to nearby buildings.
That was also the last Psi Tact ability I needed, so while I'm still coming up with some for the others, I'll shift all my attention to this merc to make sure all the systems work properly (as I'm still having issues with the ability leveling). Once he's done, it'll be a lot easier to move on to whichever mercenary is complete next.

I have a few more ideas for abilities that don't really fit the current set of mercenaries (a missile barrage, a "Survivalism" tech spec, a semi mind control, some sort of nuclear radiation, etc.), so I am really considering added a few more (perhaps a Siege Tank, Vulture, Spectre, and/or Marauder). Of course I could always finish the current mercenaries and release a later version with more heroes to choose from, as well, though that probably wouldn't be for a long while.

Hmm i think it would be best to try not to get ahead of yourself finish the game work on fixing bugs when you have spare time and bugs are fixed add more characters

Update!

MECH COMMANDER is complete. I gave the Infantry Com's "Grenade" spec to him instead. I'm not sure yet how I want to do the "Flight" ability, but I will accomplish something like that.
[E] Laser Cannon: Fires a laser beam in target direction, dealing X/X/X/X/X damage to all units it hits.
[T] Flight: Turns the mercenary into a flying vehicle for X/X/X/X/X seconds, mostly used as an evasion technique.
[F] Grenade: Launches a grenade at a target area. Each level increases the range of the grenade, as well as the base damage. Various types of grenade upgrades can be learned based on what you might need it to do (i.e. one that stuns, one that leaves resonating damage over time, one that might bounce between units, etc.).

COVERT OPERATIVE is complete.
[Q] Tactical Strike: Calls down a missile strike at the target area. The range for this will be high, but so will the cooldown.
[W] Mark for Death: Applies a debuff to units in the target area, increases damage done to them and applying a long but minor damage over time spell.
[T] Cloak: Cloak the mercenary for X/X/X/X/X seconds. While cloaked, the merc cannot attack or use abilities.

INFANTRY COMMANDER is complete.
[W] Bull Rush: Charges into enemies at a target point, briefly stunning them and dealing X/X/X/X/X damage.
[T] Barrier: Creates an immobile energy field around a target area that decreases incoming damage.
[F] Survivalism: Increases a specific stat by 100% for X/X/X/X/X seconds. The stat chosen is dependent on the upgrades the player chooses, like other tech specs.

MEDICAL TACTICIAN is complete. I'm still trying to figure out how powerful I want to make this mercenary, considering it is a healer and everyone hates playing healers.
[Q] Irradiate: Applies a damage debuff on a target unit, slowly draining HP of nearby enemies. Leveling this ability increases the range of the effect as well as the damage done to each affected unit.
[E] EMP Arc: Deals initial damage to target enemy (increased damage if the target is mechanical) and then branches out with electrical arcs to hit nearby enemies as well.

ASSAULT COMMANDER is almost complete. I moved "Assault Rally" to [W] and now I need a non-damaging defense-oriented ability for his [T] ability. Once I figure that out, he'll be finished.

I'm still having trouble with the ability leveling (and specifically the abilities not getting past level 1, despite having points for the upgrade). I'll have to go back and make sure my Veterancy is correct and work backwards. I'll develop basic versions of all the spells in the meantime and start to figure out balancing concerns.

Also, since this could be a 6-player co-op and players probably wont be able to choose the same mercenary twice, I'm really thinking more about adding a couple new mercenaries. I will try to get the first 6 done first, but I don't want people to hate playing just because they have to play a mercenary they don't particularly like. I can let anyone be any mercenary as well, though that may cause problems balance-wise. We'll see when I get to that point.

New idea.

Hmm that would an interesting addition. I'll definitely think about it. Allied units will most likely die quickly, unfortunately, so I'm not sure how that would work in the long run. I do like the idea of being able to buff the allied units, but I wonder if that would be a powerful enough spec. Yeah, I'll think a lot about this one.

Just as a quick update (at payne's nudging request):

• The reason why the ability leveling has been taking me forever to figure out is because I wanted to use custom buttons for each level. Unfortunately, it looks like no matter what I do, I have to use one button and have the automated [Level 1] through [Level 5] added on. I also saw a while back that there was some way to display an effect's damage in a button that changes the text when the ability does more damage, but I can't seem to find that anymore. My hope was to emulate what League of Legends does where it will display the damage bonus in the ability's tooltip. I might just scrap the idea of allowing bonus damage being added to abilities, and rely more on actual damage output and attack speed as item upgrades.
  
• I'm also considering giving the normal units their own veterancy to level up (just to level 4 or something). I think this will make the game more interesting overall. As the timer goes down, more powerful units will spawn over the course of the game, but this may or may not add a bit more of a challenge as units will have the ability to get stronger. This will also help with balance as I want to avoid a Level 2 ability being able to one-shot all the basic units.
  
• This sort of goes with the above point, but I have started to figure out the balance for the units. I have the HP, damage, attack speed, and armor figured out for 6 types of basic units that will duke it out. From there, I'll go back and start to add concrete values to the abilities (and finally fill in some of those "X/X/X/X/X"). I do want the abilities to feel like they are necessary to use to help kill units (especially since a majority of them are AoE spells), but I also want to avoid them being over-powered. I'll have to do a lot of testing to see how long it would potentially take to get to a level 2 ability (when a hero hits Level 3) and then go from there. Of course raising and lowerding EXP amounts will help with this, too.
  
• I think I've mentioned this before, but I'm also playing with the idea of increasing and decreasing difficulty based on how many players are in the game. I am also toying with the idea of making a few game modes once this is done (like giving players all their abilities at the start, but only giving them an extremely short amount of time to beat it).