The threat of reapers will force the enemy to spend money on defensive infrastructure regardless of you dealing significant damage to them. You just have to make sure they spend more money defending than you did harassing (if they pull probes from the mineral line they are losing minerals). This nerf will probably mean that it will be harder to outright assault the enemy before they can choose to spend resources on these defenses.

This chat lag never existed for me, nor for the guys I play sc2 with. I guess EU server is not bugged in that way

The zealot nerf makes me think that protoss will fucking opt for Photons more often before gateways now. Photon Rushes piss me off >.>

If you scout the photon rush, you can spend an equivalent amount of minerals they spent on static cannons on an expansion, and then gain an economic advantage.

Usually it's better to get early Crawlers to fight off the cannons IMO but sure.

Usually its better to kill the probe with your first marine/zerglings/zealot. Pretty easy to do if you scout properly.

When I first read the announcement, I thought it was 35 damage, 15 vs. armored (why did they write +15 instead of 50 like it would be in-game?). However, Terran will have harder time countering marines and MMM.

Oh, and as for cannon rushes, if you're Terran, you can lift off and relocate. If someone is noob enough to cheese you, you can make a comeback. I've done it before.

... They'd have to really suck. And, yeah, I misread it at first as well.

Queens are exactly as strong as they need to be. In even numbers, and with micro they beat every single unit in the game except Phoenices. Transfusion is ridiculous. They're the strongest unit for cost by far. The only time you should ever be losing Queens is if they're desolated and overwhelmed, or harshly outranged.



Lol.



You're aware Reapers do bonus damage to buildings, right? 8 +1 Reapers can one shot all static defense buildings.

You're a low level player. Proxy bunker with Reaper is extremely powerful right now.


This. All of you complaining about these nerfs have either never seen a high-level game, or you think you *are* high-level. You're not.

The only changes I'm sad they haven't mentioned anything about yet is making Queens massive (in PvZ currently, Graviton Beaming Queens for harass is ludicrously overpowered. Protoss can completely destroy the Zerg macro mechanic, which is already the hardest to use out of the races with very simple micro. At the same time, Zerg can't do anything to hinder the Protoss macro mechanic except use Contaminate from Overseers... Which are countered easily by Phoenices. If you want to actually counter Phoenix harass, you're forced into defending with Hydralisks [1 Phoenix can beat an infinite number of Mutalisks, ] which just doesn't end well.)

And, something I was hoping was Reactor-Build ability for Nydus Worms. (Currently, unless used as a crap shoot or when you're at an advantage anyways, they're pretty useless. Easily detected, and even easier to kill. You can build 2 Nydus Networks to plop down multiple Worms at once, but it's outrageously expensive.)

Also, Mothership buff.

I actually said that because I was mocking blanket statements like "This is solid proof that they're catering to low-level play". But if you think I'm right, run with it, I suppose.

Queens are pretty strong in the base, yes... but because of their disposition, they are too weak and their death often cripples zerg players. I guess, instead of saying queens need to be stronger, I should've said the concepts behind the queen's abilities should be changed/strengthened/changed.

A queen is generally required to be built in early game for zerg players to be able to build units at a good speed (Spawn Larva). Usually, with only queen, she would usually have her energy drained in order to produce spawn larva and creep tumors (i.e. no E for transfusion). Therefore, most players build 2 queens. However, if you think of the cost, it is just as expensive as another hatchery. I just feel it puts too big of a dent on Zerg player's productivity. Sure you can build just 1 queen, but then she becomes very vulnerable, since most players would aim at the queen.
Transfusion with Spine crawlers is really the one good thing queen can do to defend... but this requires the zerg player to give up spawning larvas for a bit... and with reapers + constant harass, that's just not possible.

This, keyed with the fact that the queen's slower than a Reaver with Ensnare outside the creep, makes zerg builds VERY limited early game. She can only defend, and most often, zerg players HAVE to protect her in order to not have their entire unit production crippled. I just think this whole system is sort of underpowered, and that if this system was made better... (maybe the hatchery has energy which spawns more larva automatically with an upgrade.. like the Orbital commond), i think a lot of the problems surrounding zerg would be alleviated.

I think one step they could do would be to make the queen walk faster... both on and off creep... at least that'd give it more of a Micro-edge.. since stimmed marines/marauders/reapers pwn it so hard. Or even give it a spell that can deal with units... I agree that it doesn't require a buff... it just needs to be changed a bit.

No. No no no no. No. No no. No.

The Queen is a defensive unit. Think of it as a more mobile Spore Crawler. If you played the beta you'd know that it used to walk faster... And Queen/Spine Crawler rushes were one of the most OP things ever.

Yeah, I think a really large part of Z is to protect the Queen. It's important and vulnerable, and needs to be defended. I think Bliz was trying to make it so a Z has to protect the queen. I don't see how it's any different than say, P protecting pylons. T doesn't have any vulnerabilities, though.

I'm sorry if this counts as spam, but I think it's totally funny, and a totally legit reaction to the nerfs.




**I tried to use the YouTube button, but nothing happened. So I don't know how to embed this video. Someone do it for me please.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Aug 31 2010, 10:13 am by NudeRaider. Reason: ML skin is broken. Use Epic or Turtle

It was obvious but still lulzy

I also have not seen many people use proxy bunker. Are you for the reaper nerf or against it? By the time you get 8 reapers, the enemy can have sentry/stalkers, maurader/siege tanks, or roaches/hydralisks. Reapers cost too much gas. Has anyone ever seen a mass reaper game?

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 2 2010, 2:45 pm by NudeRaider. Reason: huge unnecessary quote chain

Yes I know it is a defensive Unit, which is why it walks so damn slow off the creep.
But I'm asking you this: Don't you feel that this is too black and white?
It limits the queen so much...
My suggestions are probably not the best.. but I'm sure there're better ways to let zerg macro-manage

EDIT:
It is a bit different from P protecting Pylons because Pylons are part of the protoss' build, and is not a must-be staple of the protoss' macro-management. Moreover, Pylons don't attack... and have more HP... :\ .. you don't use it to defend stuff...

BTW.. lul'd at idra's response

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Aug 31 2010, 6:09 pm by UnholyUrine.

Queens are a must-be staple to a Z's macro. In addition, you only need one Queen, and it can attack so it doesn't need much HP. It's not a building and it should have some defensive structure support, really.

Not against me, but I have seen a dozen replays of top-tier players such as Idra getting completely screwed over by it. I am only in Platinum atm, and I haven't had huge problems with Reapers yet.

For me, the largest change is the Siege Tank nerf. They are just really frustrating in a lot of maps with chokes since you cannot rush to them. In addition, right now they are a huge counter to Hydras, which in turn are more or less the only legitimate counter to Terran air. I've been lately having huge problems with Thor/Tanks/Vikings/Banshees, because those Vikings will really punish all of my air, and the only other unit that can even attack air is Hydras, which get slaughtered by tanks so fast it looks comic.

I've been having a fairly good matchup against 'Toss lately, but every small bit helps. Ultras weren't that great to begin with, although I did beat one Zerg with Ultra/Queen/Hydra.

@Queens: I think they are where they need to be. Sure, they are immobile early game, but when it comes to mobility, Overlord Dropships and Nydus Wurms help to get them quite close to where they need to be, and both of them also spread creep for you to plant tumors on. You can really just tour 'round the map with an Ovie with Queen in it and fill the whole map with creep, if you so desire. Afterwards you find your Queens are surprisingly mobile. They are also pretty good in ZvZ where both players are furiously spreading creep.

@Worms: I have found that you cannot rely on them solely to penetrate your opponent's base. They are quite handy getting map control on other parts, though. You can link your expansions for faster travel, have one just nearby your opponent's base so you can counterattack really fast or to get a flank on him. They also work allright if you are engaging the opponent on a different front at the time. Just a few Banelings into opponent's mineral line can do wonders, although for smaller-scale assaults an Overlord drop is usually better. They do seem a bit lackluster, but they do have their benefits.

@Mothership: I think it's allright. Vortex definitely makes a huge difference. The unit probably needs a slight movespeed increase, though.. It's like, slower than slow slow of slowiness.

There actually was a game last night with Dimaga and Morrow where Morrow rushed with 6 bunkers and like 3 reapers. Once he tried to baneling bust he knocked the first two bunkers, and the reapers/marines ran into the next two behind. It was quite ridiculous. The reaper nerf isn't against mass reapers Johnny, you don't know what you're talking about.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Sep 2 2010, 5:51 pm by CecilSunkure.