Put it this way: compare you map to any Blizzard map already in SC2, or SC. Does your map look anything like them? No. Your map is bland, blocky and boring. You personally might prefer it, but in general, the community does not.

A good first attempt, especially for private use if you just wanna try the map editor out. But to post this on a mapping website and present it as some useful contribution of the site is, frankly, embarassing.

And yes, while you can go and alter this map, you'd be much better off just starting from scratch. Keep the current concept that you have (whatever that actually is - seems you wanted to do some sort of minimal mirror thing) but this time add some flair, personality and style to it. You'll end up with something much better than if you try to tweak what you've already got.

Guys I think He gets it. I don't see why everyone needs to post the same post over and over again!...
We want people to come to us when they need help/ideas. If we are going to make people feel stupid. They are not going to want to come to us.
So if you only have something say, that either has been said. Or your purpose in saying it is to tell the person that you are "Better" "They suck" Then don't say it.

Dude you got a map there!! A lot of people like fastest maps, just not here.. because they don't take very much skill to make ( This is a map creator site ) .I would actually not scrap it because people will play it...
" I am pretty sure I saw fastest maps being play in SC, Don't know why It wouldn't be played in SC 2 "
I would actually disagree with everyone here. SC is full of noobs and noobs love Fastest maps! " ( But you gotta turn it into a complete fastest map for sure, with the minerals right next to the base and everything, take out the extra expansions, make everyone have the orange minerals/gas and you should be good. )

"If you want a real concept map put one together the best you can, and I bet people will tell you whats going on in that map, instead of just flame you! "

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 10 2010, 6:20 pm by Ashamed.

The fact that everyone keeps saying

"its bland", "Its boring" "It sucks" "Its boring looking". Constant comments like these (And urine loves making harsher ones) Tends to sway people away from here, and there maps.

Offer suggestions, not flame, and it seems some here have a narrow view of what HAS to be or SHOULD be in a map.

Yes, his map does need some more work, to try and make sure, it doesnt offer too much of a advantage for certain races. And the map clearly was not designed to look *natural*, which some of you don't seem to see, you just see simple styled terrain and bash him for it. You know maps CAN look simple, they dont HAVE to look all natural, and beautiful to be a melee map.

Copy terrain.

Paste.

Rotate.

You just managed to do XY symmetry in Galaxy. ;o

First and foremost, I was NOT trying to make another FA$TE$T map, if i wanted however, i could very easily make it into one... stacked minerals and all, BUT I DONT WANT TO!!!

Yes, ITS SUPPOSED TO BE SYMMETRICAL!!! I wanted a map where people could use a plethora of strategies and i think that the way that this map is designed you have to be on your feet from the time the game starts to the end, if you dont push and just defense, YOU WILL GET STEAM ROLLED! i know that i have some work to do to make it "pretty" but for christ sakes... all you HCM guys just bitch about how plain it is... ITS BECAUSE IM BROKE AND SPEND ALL MY TIME LOOKING FOR A JOB A-HOLES! if i wasnt looking for a job, i was eating or sleeping or taking a dump and now that i finally got a job i have to focus on that... my down time for the 2 weeks previous to posting the map was making the map and actually thinking ABOUT the map and not about getting a job so that i could relax a bit and to be honest, seeing the responses i did at first was REALLY discouraging because it was ALL NEGATIVE and quite frankly i really dont think all too much of you guys anymore because you completely did the opposite of what i thought(which was give me some helpful and friendly advice and or ways to change around the terrain and things to add, stuff like that)

Yes the map needs work and yes actually the map does have an idea behind it, quite a few actually.
My idea for the middle being made the way it is, is so that each team can adopt an effective defense or offense, or both for that matter and if all you HCM guys cant even kinda see that, this site should revoke your lil group and or just ban you from the forum lol.
The ramps at the bottom and top of the map going into the upper and lower high yield expos are the early rushing lanes as seen in the pics at the bottom of this post and the destructibles, there are 4 in each lane in the middle blocking the short rush distance, two 2x6 vertical rocks are in each of the 4 spots(maybe overkill) and as PunWisp so kindly pointed out, the top is noticeably smaller on the Y axis than the bottom... the top of the map is less susceptible to an air sneak attack because there is less area for you to have to keep track of, however, the bottom is larger and therefore harder to defend against air sneaks. All of the watchtowers except the ones in the middle with the two 2x rich expos enclosed in LOSB(line of sight blockers) can be used advantageously by any player on the map, for example the watchtowers that look over the 6x6 destructibles that can be taken down to gain access to your allies base could be used by your opponent to see if there is an easy backup rout that you can help fight off an attack with, and maybe even to just see whats goin on in theyr base if they build near the tower... i think that blink may be able to be abused for now, but, kinks like that get worked out with more editing which i havnt had time to do. Tis all i have time to say for now



PS... thanks for the support PunWisp, and just so you know Aristocrat, copy and paste is for NOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dude unfortunately with a map like this.. It just wont work... Unless its a fastest!
I mean you can keep it like this... but people will not play it the way it is
Noobz = want fastest
Real players = A well balanced strategy map!

( If you don't turn it into a fastest map... Then it will have neither of that )
The guys that are critisiing you may be jerks, but unfortunately they have been doing it for a long time.. If they say it simply wont work. Then It means that It wont work!
Its either fastest, or make a map for yourself.

( I use copy and paste all the time ... ) But I don't make melee maps lol.. I copy and paste triggers.

I didnt even know you coud copy and paste terrain, how do you copy and paste terrain?

you just click, drag, ctrl+c, then ctrl+v and click where you want the copy... you have to be editing the terrain tho, you can also do pretty much the same thing when your doing units, just drag/select the stuff you want to copy and paste it then click where you want it, it should show a shadow of what units your pasting so that you can determine where everything will end up, but with terrain i dont think it shows you a shadow

wat




In any case, when you're just starting to melee map, it's best to stick to the more "conventional" layouts. After you understand what makes a map balanced and know how to incorporate those elements into your map, THEN you can try unorthodox mapping to achieve what you want. You can't just jump straight to making stretegically heavy maps; they'll turn out just like this one.

Really, because you've taken the time to explain all about this, I feel that you really want to succeed, rather than just sit here and flame. Therefore, I'll give you a bigger, and better description. I don't want you to feel that your map is being misjudged because we've conjured our arguments in a more generalized manner, causing them to be more debatable and less justifiable. I'll try to be as concise and detailed as I can... and since I'm doing this from an SC1 + SC2 theory + minimal melee experience, don't expect high-end answers.

Problem 1. Bad Mineral Placements of Mains
- Since I'm assuming the 4 mains are at each corner, why are they in the dead center of the base? This causes huge imbalance in essence of harrassing units... i.e. zerglings, reapers, and etc. The space between the wall and the mineral line should be minimal. Try to only include enough space for what we call in SC1 a "Turret-line". Your current main mineral placement is OP for reapers.
- Another thing is that in melee, there's usually around 6-9 mineral fields and 1-2 vespene. This has been the accepted amount of fields in the iCCup maps' criterion.

Problem 2. Bad Natural Placements
- Mineral fields should not be pointing into a battle area. The reasoning is simple... ranged units > melee units. If, in an early rush, a terran attacks a protoss nat, and the protoss only has zealots... the protoss have no chance of winning since both workers and the resource fields block zealots. This is only an example of many other things that would be imbalanced in this case.

Problem 3. Wasted Space
- The area adjacent to the mains are empty. Why is it empty? I think taking out the nat that's blocking the main entrance, and putting two mineral fields on the sides adjacent to the main would be a better choice. Moreover, you can shift the ramp so that it goes into these two mineral fields. While people in SC1 tend to despise double nats, it is still a lot better than having an area of nothingless to fill in the map.

Problem 4. Too many high yield minerals
- Assuming this is a 4 player map... there are no reasons to really compete for the high yield minerals as there're too many of them. Moreover, the way you've placed the minerals is bland and just lazy on your part.

Problem 5. First person in the mid Wins
- Middle is too OP. Whoever can set up a base there first will basically win the game since they have two sets of resources, tons of minerals, and two sets of those all-seeing temples to boot.

Problem 6. Tank, Reapers, Collossi, and Air units
- OP due to your map set up. Zerg < all.
- Tanks can siege at the sides of all the mains. This is just plain simple logic.
- Since all other ground units would require to take the ledges, players, especially terran, can simply wall off the ledges with endless trails of Supply depots.
- This also makes Air units imbalanced.

Problem 7. Symmetry!! It's nice, but not required.
- As Ex always likes to say. If you do X + Y symmetry, GG, your map sucks. Always try to do XY symmetry unless you have a good concept going on.
- Unsymmetric maps are also cool, but extremely hard to balance. Good SC1 example is Tau Cross. I'm sure you've heard of that one. That map has "circular symmetry".

Problem 8, the worst problem of them all. NO CONCEPT
- Alright, let me clear this up a bit more for you. When we say "concept", what we mean is that we want to see something about your map that is unique and special. We want to see if you can make a balanced 2 nat map. We want to see Mains close together, like Scrap Yard in SC2, but still balanced. We especially want to see all the new SC2 melee mechanics in play, such as those seeing-eye temples, placed in unique ways that would introduce interesting gameplay while not affecting the balance of the game!
- The "high yield mineral + temple placements" do not constitute as a "concept" because it isn't something that of the whole map. It is only a part of the map, and it does not integrate into it. Moreover, it is horribly imbalanced.

Oh Oh.. Problem #9. B-L-A-N-D
- It's neat, but it's really bland. There're no doodads/decoration... Makes me sad
- Makes the map feels like a money map. Even tho you're not trying to make one, I know.

I hope this is what you were looking for, and I want to see better things from you.

Also, how tha FUCK do you not have time when you DON'T have a job?? I have a job, and I barely have any time D: What the fuuuck?

EDIT: ooh, extra note, Devilesk posted this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122171
It links to maps that are being ported to SC2. There're a lot of good maps in there. Go take a look

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Jun 13 2010, 1:02 am by UnholyUrine.

Mass stalkers would be OP. Can you see why?

Urine is the new Excaliber?

ew no...
i'm not half as negative...
And I don't really melee map...

geh... 180shotblock hasn't logged on since... all that explaining gone to waste :\

Your pretty negative, so he must be very negative

Look in the SC1 melee section .

Ex is a believer in the value of humility.

I was considering posting on here explaining to him in greater detail why his map was bad, but you saved me the trouble. And yeah, it doesn't seem like we saved him any trouble. But just in case he comes back:

180, do you realize why we're so critical?

The reason is that we take this game seriously. Maybe too seriously, but we do take it seriously. You don't seem to, because you did not take the time to 1) look at currently accepted maps; 2) try to make your map look good; 3) think about the problems that a map this simplistic could have; 4) think about some reason why people would choose to play your map over a prettier, more balanced map (that's called a concept); 5) put very much work into it. Personally, I would not play on this map because any points I gained or lost as a result would not be accurate. If I played Terran, I would steamroll everyone because tanks would be overpowered; if I played Protoss, I would steamroll Zerg at least because colossi could abuse cliffwalking to such an extreme that they could outrun any ground army the Zerg could send at them. And I'd hate to be a Zerg trying to play this map, especially if I got one of the bases with two entrances to the main. Zerg are the worst race at defending early game, and this map just aggravates that problem.

So do you understand why now? No one would want to play it because of the problems it has. Skill level means much less on an imbalanced map than on a balanced map; a gold or silver-level terran could defeat a diamond-level zerg on your map with little difficulty if he had an ounce of brains in his head.

Now, a last note. We don't mean to scare you off with our criticisms. Would you yell at a workman if he screwed something up with the counters in your kitchen? Yeah, probably. Would you make him redo it? Yeah, probably. The difference here is that you decide what to do with the advice we've given. The workman would have no choice, but here you have a choice. Are you going to try again and make it better? Or are you going to sulk and never visit these forums again because you have a sensitive psyche? I sure hope not the latter, because we'd love to see you get better. It might be hard, but keep trying and you'll no doubt achieve something sooner or later.

Guys, I'm pretty damn sure he GETS IT now, stop repeating the same things over and over and over...

He hasn't actually logged on since a long time ago, so it may be necessary to keep bumping this topic so that it comes to his attention eventually.

haha, thanks UUrine and IDeo, now i have a real idea as to what you guys fricking meant lol... b4 i just thought you were all assholes hahahahahahaha... i kinda lost some interest when i felt like i was being picked on and i didnt really think to put work into it while SC2 wasnt up + i might not be able to even keep the job i just got because my mom is a bitch and wont front me the money to get started and pay her back in a week and the fronted money could be refunded at any time... hence why i called her a bitch, any way... i dont know when but i will be working on the map, ill think of some ways to change up the map and yea... i thought the very same thing, stalkers = easy abuse and meh, with zerg you could do pretty well if you fast expo to middle, nydus would be pretty beastly in this map tho too