Staredit Network > Forums > Serious Discussion > Topic: Does (a) God really exist?
Does (a) God really exist?
Dec 3 2009, 10:51 pm
By: Brontobyte
Pages: < 1 « 10 11 12 13 1417 >
 

May 25 2010, 3:41 pm TheLifelessOne Post #221



Quote from BeDazed
It is not an appropriate question to be answered by any of us.

Sure it is.
I'm no expert on it, but isn't the Bible written by man? So every single line. every character, every idea, every thought is the product of Man.
Whether they come from "Godly Visions" (or whatever you'd like to call them), they are still within the human brains capability of creative thought, else the knowledge would likely drive us mad.

Therefor, our concept of God is a man-made invention. So, if we created God as we know it, then it is most certainly appropriate for us to answer the question.



None.

May 25 2010, 8:09 pm Jack Post #222

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=define%3Agod

Most people use the first definition of God, as in an omnipotent, omniscient Being.

The very definition of 'God' answers your question. If God exists, then He is powerful and knowledgeable enough to make things far more complex than they are.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

May 25 2010, 9:09 pm TheLifelessOne Post #223



So then, if that definition is indeed true, then my question is answered.

Here's another one for you: Where did God come from?



None.

May 25 2010, 9:46 pm Jack Post #224

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Becuse God is outside space and time, God just was, is, and will be. He didn't come from anywhere, as that implies change. Time is necessary for change, and God (or the God I know of) is outside time.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

May 25 2010, 10:20 pm Morphling Post #225



Quote from Jack
Becuse God is outside space and time, God just was, is, and will be. He didn't come from anywhere, as that implies change. Time is necessary for change, and God (or the God I know of) is outside time.
How do you know that the God you believe in wondered if he was created by some other being more supreme than himself. He would then be in the same situation we are in now.
Quote from BeDazed
The Universe existed, but in a loop of contraction into a singularity, then expanding back into a universe. And the Universe was just there, at least in our point of view.
How do you know the universe is expanding? Maybe only the mass inside the universe expanding and not the universe itself.
Quote from BeDazed
A bigger universe existed. A chunk of singularity in that universe mysteriously popped to form another bubble of space, separating that Universe from this.
This is also a possibility since universe is expanding equally, hinting at the possibility of a gravitational pull outside the universe.


There is no way to prove or disprove there is (a) God. My personal belief is that of deism. Deism is the belief that a supreme being created the universe and its laws and cannot interfere with human affairs and the natural world.



None.

May 25 2010, 10:34 pm Jack Post #226

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

I know because you can't have anything more powerful than all-powerful, and you can't have anything more knowledgeable than all-knowing. If God was less than that, He wouldn't be God, and your question would be valid.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

May 25 2010, 10:49 pm Morphling Post #227



Quote from Jack
I know because you can't have anything more powerful than all-powerful, and you can't have anything more knowledgeable than all-knowing. If God was less than that, He wouldn't be God, and your question would be valid.
Because humans say the creator of the universe is all-knowing does that make it true? Even if God says he is all-knowing does that make it true?



None.

May 26 2010, 12:52 am Jack Post #228

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

God has to be all-knowing or He wouldn't be God. It has to be a fact for God to be God. Otherwise, He'd be just some random powerful dude.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

May 26 2010, 5:38 am Pinky Post #229



The argumentation gets extremely muddled when people fail to understand the difference between a deistic and a theistic God.

I, of course, was referring to the deistic God. Discussing this God's existence is of little relevance as there is currently nothing empirical that we can determine it exists. Therefor, any discussion about said God is purely speculative, amounting to nothing more then gossip (oh and don't try to squak to me about redshift, that just shows that everything in our universe has come from a single point, it says nothing about an existence of a God nor does it say of anything before the Big Bang [see big bang-big crunch cycles]).

If you are discussing any theistic Gods, then I imagine you are garnering your proofs from whatever holy book it is you happen to worship. Or perhaps making the fallacy "look at all the people that worship [insert religion here] - it must have some element of truth!" For Christians - I recommend you have a look at this: http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

EDIT: Here is a list of "proofs of Gods existence" that many fools often try to use, many all of them are stupifyingly obvious fallacies, be wary! http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

My /lock was just my own little joke. Apologies for any indignation caused.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 26 2010, 6:12 am by Pinky.



None.

May 26 2010, 6:04 am CaptainWill Post #230



I'll just restate the oft-repeated and sensible comment made in this thread.

We have no idea if a god exists - that is to say some sort of supreme being or creator. Empirical evidence appears to be impossible. The safe option is to be an agnostic, but even that position invites ridicule from atheists.



None.

May 26 2010, 6:20 am Jack Post #231

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Did you actually read any of the arguments? I was very careful to keep any biblical/koranical arguments out of it, because while I may personally believe them, they aren't a solid base to work from when debating with non-Christians. There was no discussion of red shift, and there was discussion of empirical evidence of God. Not reading the topic shows a general lack of respect towards the rest of us. You've barged in throwing around arguments against points we aren't arguing, and calling other people fools. Regardless of how wise these people are, we aren't here to mock or insult people.

This @ pinky not will by the way.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

May 26 2010, 7:14 am MasterJohnny Post #232



Quote from Jack
Did you actually read any of the arguments? I was very careful to keep any biblical/koranical arguments out of it, because while I may personally believe them, they aren't a solid base to work from when debating with non-Christians. There was no discussion of red shift, and there was discussion of empirical evidence of God. Not reading the topic shows a general lack of respect towards the rest of us. You've barged in throwing around arguments against points we aren't arguing, and calling other people fools. Regardless of how wise these people are, we aren't here to mock or insult people.

This @ pinky not will by the way.
No you actually tried to make an evolution-god(s) case which I think it is of western religion

You actually have not given empirical evidence. I have asked a physics friend on the second law of thermodynamics. The problem with your claim is that evolution on earth is not on an isolated system.
Example: asteroid collision killing dinosaurs, meteors falling to earth, ect these things are outside the system. So evolution will work with the SECOND law of thermodynamics.

Just wanted to correct you even though it does not matter.
Quote from Vrael
This argument doesn't belong in this topic anyway, since it doesn't arrive at any sort of implication about God. God could exist if evolution is true or if evolution is not true, and God could not exist in both cases also.




I am a Mathematician

May 26 2010, 12:12 pm Pinky Post #233



Allow me to talk a little on agnosticism, as there is often confusion regarding the term. Most atheists incorrectly ridicule agnostics on the basis that they are "fence-sitters" which is not the case. You either have a belief in God or you do not have a belief in God, there is no middle ground - anyone claiming to say something to the contrary is incorrect, or lying.

For those people who are genuinely fence-sitters, and perhaps incorrectly refer to themselves as agnostics - I will briefly explain why taking such a position is ridiculed by both sides:
)We can not disprove lots of things, yet we believe they do not exist anyway, its just practical. When asked if you believe in invisible pink unicorns, you don't go "well I can't prove or disprove their existence so therefor I will withhold judgement." you go "pffft, that's a load of nonsense!". Summary: We naturally "believe" things to not be true if we don't have any evidence supporting their existence. Atheists and theists see this unwillingness to take up a position as cowardice (perhaps too strong a word?). It's frowned upon anyway.

Agnosticism is not a position on belief, it is a position on knowledge. Agnostics claim you cannot know the existence of God, and therefor any argumentation surrounding His existence is nothing more then groundless speculation. You can have an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist, reiteration: agnosticism is not a middle ground between atheism and theism.

When organized religion is eventually removed, atheism will no doubt fade back into agnosticism.




Here is a detailed explanation of the thermodynamics canard, from the RichardDawkins website.

Quote
[27] Tiresome canards about evolution and the laws of thermodynamics.

And how tiresome these canards are. Not least because they've been debunked in the past, even without reference to relevant scientific literature, by people who pay attention to the scientific basics. Once the relevant scientific literature is consulted, these canards become visibly asinine.

I'll deal with the Second Law of Thermodynamics to start with, because that one is a creationist favourite, though when creationists parrot this specious nonsense, they merely demonstrate that they know nothing about the relevant physics, and certainly never paid attention to the actual words of Rudolf Clausius, who erected the Laws of Thermodynamics, and who was rigorous when doing so. Therefore, let us see what Clausius actually stated, shall we?

Rudolf Clausius erects this statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics:

In an isolated system, a process can occur only if it increases the total entropy of the system.

Now Clausius defined rigorously what was meant by three different classes of thermodynamic system, and in his work, specified explicitly that the operation of the laws of thermodynamics differed subtly in each instance. The three classes of system Clausius defined were as follows:

[27a] An isolated system is a system that engages in no exchanges of energy or matter with the surroundings;

[27b] A closed system is a system that engages in exchanges of energy with the surroundings, but does not engage in exchange of matter with the surroundings;

[27c] An open system is a system that engages in exchanges of both matter and energy with the surroundings.

Now, Clausius' statement above clearly and explicitly refers to isolated systems, which, thus far, have been found to be an idealised abstraction, as no truly isolated system has ever been found. Indeed, in order to create even an approximation to an isolated system in order to perform precise calorimetric measurements, physicists have to resort to considerable ingenuity in order to minimise energy exchanges with the surroundings, particularly given the pervasive nature of heat. Even then, they cannot make the system completely isolated, because they need to have some means of obtaining measurement data from that system, which has to be conveyed to the surroundings, and this process itself requires energy. Physicists can only construct a closed system, in which, courtesy of much ingenuity, energy exchanges with the surroundings are minimised and precisely controlled, and to achieve this result in a manner that satisfies the demands of precise work is time consuming, expensive and requires a lot of prior analysis of possible sources of energy exchange that need to be minimised and controlled.

However, the Earth is manifestly an open system. It is in receipt not only of large amounts of energy from outside (here's a hint: see that big yellow thing in the sky?) but is also in receipt of about 1,000 tons of matter per year in the form of particles of meteoritic origin from outer space. Some of these 'particles' are, on occasions, large enough to leave craters in the ground, such as that nice large one in Arizona. That particular dent in the Earth's surface is 1,200 metres in diameter, 170 metres deep, and has a ridge of material around the edges that rises 45 metres above the immediate landscape, and was excavated when a meteorite impacted the Earth's surface, generating a blast equivalent to a 20 megaton nuclear bomb. Hardly a characteristic of an isolated system.

Indeed, physicists have known for a long time, that if a particular system is a net recipient of energy from outside, then that energy can be harnessed within that system to perform useful work. Which is precisely what living organisms do. Indeed, they only harness a small fraction of the available incoming energy, yet this is sufficient to power the entire diversity of the biosphere, and the development of organisms of increasing sophistication over time. Scientists have published numerous papers (twelve of which are known to me, and this is an incomplete inventory of the extant literature) in which calculations have been performed demonstrating that the utilisation of energy by the biosphere, and by evolution, is orders of magnitude too small to violate thermodynamic concerns. Relevant papers in question being:

Entropy And Evolution by Daniel F. Styer, American Journal of Physics, 78(11): 1031-1033 (November 2008) DOI: 10.1119/1.2973046

Natural Selection As A Physical Principle by Alfred J. Lotka, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 8: 151-154 (1922) [full paper downloadable from here]

Evolution Of Biological Complexity by Christoph Adami, Charles Ofria and Travis C. Collier, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 97(9): 4463-4468 (25th April 2000) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Order From Disorder: The Thermodynamics Of Complexity In Biology by Eric D. Schneider and James J. Kay, in Michael P. Murphy, Luke A.J. O'Neill (ed), What is Life: The Next Fifty Years. Reflections on the Future of Biology, Cambridge University Press, pp. 161-172 [Full paper downloadable from here]

Natural Selection For Least Action by Ville R. I. Kaila and Arto Annila, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Part A, 464: 3055-3070 (22nd july 2008) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Evolution And The Second Law Of Thermodynamics by Emory F. Bunn, arXiv.org, 0903.4603v1 (26th March 2009) [Download full paper from here]

All of these peer reviewed papers establish, courtesy of rigorous empirical and theoretical work, that evolution is perfectly consistent with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. I cover several of these in detail in this post, and it should be noted here that the notion that evolution was purportedly in "violation" of the Second Law of Thermodynamics was rejected in a paper written in 1922, which means that creationists who erect this canard are ignorant of scientific literature published over eighty years ago.

While covering this topic, it's also necessary to deal with the canard that entropy equals 'disorder'. This is a non-rigorous view of entropy that scientists engaged in precise work discarded some time ago. Not least because there are documented examples of systems that have a precisely calculated entropy increase after spontaneously self-organising into well-defined structures. Phospholipids are the classic example of such a system - a suspension of phospholipids in aqueous solution will spontaneously self-assemble into structures such as micelles, bilayer sheets and liposomes upon receiving an energy input consisting of nothing more than gentle agitation. In other words, just shake the bottle. Moreover, the following scientific paper discusses in some detail the fact that entropy can increase when a system becomes more ordered, a paper that was published in 1998, and hence, has been in circulation for over a decade now:

Gentle Force Of Entropy Bridges Disciplines by David Kestenbaum, Science, 279: 1849 (20th March 1998)

Quote
Kestenbaum, 1998 wrote:Normally, entropy is a force of disorder rather than organization. But physicists have recently explored the ways in which an increase in entropy in one part of a system can force another part into greater order. The findings have rekindled speculation that living cells might take advantage of this little-known trick of physics.


Entropy, as rigorously defined, has units of Joules per Kelvin, and is therefore a function of energy versus thermodynamic temperature. The simple fact of the matter is that if the thermodynamic temperature increases, then the total entropy of a given system decreases if no additional energy was input into the system in order to provide the increase in thermodynamic temperature. Star formation is an excellent example of this, because the thermodynamic temperature at the core of a gas cloud increases as the cloud coalesces under gravity. All that is required to increase the core temperature to the point where nuclear fusion is initiated is sufficient mass. No external energy is added to the system. Consequently, the entropy at the core decreases due to the influence of gravity driving up the thermodynamic temperature. Yet the highly compressed gas in the core is hardly "ordered".

STOP PRESS: as if to reinforce this point, my attention has just been drawn to this scientific paper:

Disordered, Quasicrystalline And Crystalline Phases Of Densely Packed Tetrahedra by Amir Haji-Akbari, Michael Engel, Aaron S. Keys, Xiaoyu Zheng, Rolfe G. Petschek, Peter Palffy-Muhoray and Sharon C. Glotzer, Nature, 462: 773-777 (10th December 2009)

The abstract is suitably informative here:

Haji-Akbari, 2009 wrote:
All hard, convex shapes are conjectured by Ulam to pack more densely than spheres1, which have a maximum packing fraction of φ = π/√18 ≈ 0.7405. Simple lattice packings of many shapes easily surpass this packing fraction2, 3. For regular tetrahedra, this conjecture was shown to be true only very recently; an ordered arrangement was obtained via geometric construction with φ = 0.7786 (ref. 4), which was subsequently compressed numerically to φ = 0.7820 (ref. 5), while compressing with different initial conditions led to φ = 0.8230 (ref. 6). Here we show that tetrahedra pack even more densely, and in a completely unexpected way. [b]Following a conceptually different approach, using thermodynamic computer simulations that allow the system to evolve naturally towards high-density states
, we observe that a fluid of hard tetrahedra undergoes a first-order phase transition to a dodecagonal quasicrystal7, 8, 9, 10, which can be compressed to a packing fraction of φ = 0.8324. By compressing a crystalline approximant of the quasicrystal, the highest packing fraction we obtain is φ = 0.8503. If quasicrystal formation is suppressed, the system remains disordered, jams and compresses to φ = 0.7858. Jamming and crystallization are both preceded by an entropy-driven transition from a simple fluid of independent tetrahedra to a complex fluid characterized by tetrahedra arranged in densely packed local motifs of pentagonal dipyramids that form a percolating network at the transition. The quasicrystal that we report represents the first example of a quasicrystal formed from hard or non-spherical particles. Our results demonstrate that particle shape and entropy can produce highly complex, ordered structures.



So as if the Kestenbaum paper on entropy driving ordered systems, and the empirical evidence from phospholipids were not enough, we now have this. Consequently, the message to creationists is simple: don't bother wasting your time posting the "evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics" canard, because it is now well and truly busted.

Some creationists, however, erect a related, and in some respects, even more asinine canard, that evolution somehow violates the First Law of Thermodynamics. Guess who provided us with rigorous statements about this law? That's right, Rudolf Clausius again. Let's see what he actually stated with respect to this, shall we? The Clausius formulation of the First Law of Thermodynamics is this:

The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy input into the system via heating, minus the energy lost as a result of the work done by the system upon its surroundings.


The mathematical expression of which is:

dU = δQ-δw

If the process is reversible, then this can be recast in terms of exact differentials by noting that δw is equal to P dV, where P is the internal pressure, and V the volume occupied, and that δQ is equal to T dS, where T is the thermodynamic temperature and S is the entropy of the system. Therefore this becomes dU = T dS - P dV.

Oh look. Clausius explicitly framed the First Law of Thermodynamics in terms of energy exchanges within a system. He did NOT assume constancy thereof. Indeed, the rigorous framing of the First Law of Thermodynamics explicitly takes into account the possibility of a system being a recipient of energy that can be used to perform useful work. Therefore creationist canards erected about the First Law of Thermodynamics are null and void for the same reasons as those erected about the Second Law of Thermodynamics - said canards not only ignore completely Clausius' original and rigorous formulations of those laws, and ignore completely that Clausius framed his formulations around energy exchanges between a system and its surroundings, but rely upon outright misrepresentations of those laws.

Indeed, Clausius had energy exchanges in mind with respect to the Second Law of Thermodynamics as well, which is why the statement on entropy was framed in terms of an isolated system, which engages in no such exchanges with the surroundings. When energy exchanges are taking place, the operation of the Second law of Thermodynamics within such systems is subtly different.

So, that drops another creationist canard into the toilet bowl of bad ideas and pulls the flush hard.




None.

May 26 2010, 2:26 pm BeDazed Post #234



Quote
When organized religion is eventually removed, atheism will no doubt fade back into agnosticism.
Doubt it. You may as well as just say 'Screw Constitution, Screw human rights, and Screw the world' as well.

Quote
For those people who are genuinely fence-sitters, and perhaps incorrectly refer to themselves as agnostics - I will briefly explain why taking such a position is ridiculed by both sides:
)We can not disprove lots of things, yet we believe they do not exist anyway, its just practical. When asked if you believe in invisible pink unicorns, you don't go "well I can't prove or disprove their existence so therefor I will withhold judgement." you go "pffft, that's a load of nonsense!". Summary: We naturally "believe" things to not be true if we don't have any evidence supporting their existence. Atheists and theists see this unwillingness to take up a position as cowardice (perhaps too strong a word?). It's frowned upon anyway.
Which is exactly the Human nonsense that prevented progress. It is rather hypocritical to not let people believe what they want, when you desire progress. Prejudice is essentially a innate resistance toward change. If there weren't devices blocking people from taking extreme measures, then people would have already done so. Which probably would've led one party into the absolute majority- and our society would have no doubt, stagnated just like the dark ages- when nothing 'against' whats majority was accepted. Oh yeah, also, your quote is another generic nature logic non-sense. It's natural does not prove, nor does it justify, nor is it absolutely right. Sometimes, 'natural' is an abomination.

@Morphling
I find you funny. Not because you're trying to make intelligent posts, but because you're trying to argue something that needs not be argued. As such, I have not stated the facts about the Universe, it is merely a speculation that could go on forever. I hope you learn to read more carefully before rousing a very neutral person.

@Pinky
Post a link, not a quote.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 26 2010, 2:53 pm by BeDazed.



None.

May 26 2010, 6:44 pm Morphling Post #235



[quoteBeDazed]@Morphling
I find you funny. Not because you're trying to make intelligent posts, but because you're trying to argue something that needs not be argued.
[/quote]
You're saying that I attempted to make intelligent posts? I find that extemely offensive. If you truly believe that then please keep that to yourself. You say that I brought up a subject that does not need to be argued, but what is this topic? Agruing on the subject of if (a) God exists does not need to be argued because no one could possibly know the answer. The point of the topic is to get people thinking about ideas (or for some it is to persuade others), or was I mistaken?
[quoteBeDazed]
As such, I have not stated the facts about the Universe, it is merely a speculation that could go on forever.
[/quote]
I know what you wrote and I was just commenting on your ideas.
[quoteBeDazed]
I hope you learn to read more carefully before rousing a very neutral person.
[/quote]
The discussion with Jack was merely an attempt to get him to think, not to anger him.



None.

May 26 2010, 7:40 pm Jack Post #236

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

@Pinky, the universe is generally considered to be an isolated system. The ONLY isolated system, using current technology.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

May 26 2010, 11:15 pm CaptainWill Post #237



We know barely anything about the universe though.

Has it been proved to be an isolated system in the same way that Earth has been proved to be an open system?



None.

May 26 2010, 11:42 pm Syphon Post #238



Quote from Jack
Becuse God is outside space and time, God just was, is, and will be. He didn't come from anywhere, as that implies change. Time is necessary for change, and God (or the God I know of) is outside time.

"And on the seventh day, God rested".

Why would you look at that, God experiences time.



None.

May 27 2010, 12:22 am Jack Post #239

>be faceless void >mfw I have no face

Quote from Syphon
Quote from Jack
Becuse God is outside space and time, God just was, is, and will be. He didn't come from anywhere, as that implies change. Time is necessary for change, and God (or the God I know of) is outside time.

"And on the seventh day, God rested".

Why would you look at that, God experiences time.
You're assuming a Biblical God. Not that I think that's a bad thing but we weren't talking about one.

Also, the whole 'God rested' thing was to set up the 1 day's rest in 7 principle, which most people follow to this day. God didn't actually need rest, or limit Himself to time, but merely ceased adding new things to the universe to illustrate a point.



Red classic.

"In short, their absurdities are so extreme that it is painful even to quote them."

May 27 2010, 1:10 am Vrael Post #240



Quote from Jack
Quote from Syphon
Quote from Jack
Becuse God is outside space and time, God just was, is, and will be. He didn't come from anywhere, as that implies change. Time is necessary for change, and God (or the God I know of) is outside time.

"And on the seventh day, God rested".

Why would you look at that, God experiences time.
You're assuming a Biblical God. Not that I think that's a bad thing but we weren't talking about one.
He isn't assuming anything. This topic is about God, with a capital G. There is only one "God" about which to talk.

As for this particular phrase you use, "outside time." I am curious what you mean by it. Within the realm of human experience I have not met or spoken with anyone who has been outside time, so I am curious: what does this mean and what signifigance does it have in its application to God?



None.

Options
Pages: < 1 « 10 11 12 13 1417 >
  Back to forum
Please log in to reply to this topic or to report it.
Members in this topic: None.
[01:56 am]
Oh_Man -- cool bit of history, spellsword creator talking about the history of EUD ^
[09:24 pm]
Moose -- denis
[05:00 pm]
lil-Inferno -- benis
[10:41 am]
v9bettel -- Nice
[2024-4-19. : 1:39 am]
Ultraviolet -- no u elky skeleton guy, I'll use em better
[2024-4-18. : 10:50 pm]
Vrael -- Ultraviolet
Ultraviolet shouted: How about you all send me your minerals instead of washing them into the gambling void? I'm saving up for a new name color and/or glow
hey cut it out I'm getting all the minerals
[2024-4-18. : 10:11 pm]
Ultraviolet -- :P
[2024-4-18. : 10:11 pm]
Ultraviolet -- How about you all send me your minerals instead of washing them into the gambling void? I'm saving up for a new name color and/or glow
[2024-4-17. : 11:50 pm]
O)FaRTy1billion[MM] -- nice, now i have more than enough
Please log in to shout.


Members Online: Ultraviolet