SEN is currently a fine SC community, but a sub-par in the SC2 area. IP's prior inactivity shouldn't really matter when trying to bring SEN into the SC2 frontier. He has more experience with the beta and the editor than most people here and has a good idea of what needs to be done.

Also, he's been here long enough to know how the community is and it hasn't really changed during his inactivity anyway.

My standards aren't unreasonably high. Decent English, decent conduct, and decent mapping. Not everyone can talk like Moose and not everyone can map like Tux. And people screw up from time to time.

No, there is no reason why we can't do that. It wouldn't be easy by any measure, but I'd be willing to work at it. I just want to make sure we're not
Saying things like this.
The SENners who came before us and did a lot of good work are important to me. Its important that we think about why they contributed all they did to SEN and try and keep those things around.

I have no such fear, nor has such a thought crossed my mind. Perhaps I think too much of myself to think I'm replaceable. That'd certainly agree with the first part of your post.

Even if everyone we have here got into SC2 and was contributing, we'd still need more. SEN at current is pretty small. I'm not averse to new members, dev.

You're right, those standards are completely reasonable. However, the problem is how you treat those that do not meet your standards. It seems like you are too intolerant and unwelcoming with them. Rather than that, you should try to develop a more nurturing personality.

The contributions of older SEN members should never be forgotten. They should be honored and respected for their work with SC, but we cannot expect new members to care as much when they are coming here for SC2. We should also remember that many of them will come from warcraft 3 backgrounds so they will not be able to relate to our SC past even more.

Also, I don't think SEN's identity is or should be defined by its past. It's defined by the people currently here that make up the community. The way older members affect SEN's identity is how their legacy and influence live on in the current members. As long as we keep our traditions and "educate" new members about our history, we will maintain our identity.
That's the feeling I get.

I completely agree. I was afraid that the general feeling among SEN members was that we do not need outside help, so I chose not to phrase it as strongly as you did. But the reality is that SEN needs to attract new people.

[deleted]

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Jul 5 2018, 4:01 am by DavidJCobb.

A good suggestion. This has always been a problem for me, I've been working on it for a while now. I like to think I've improved, but there's always room for more.

Sounds good.

We need to attract new people, and our PR campaign thus far with the SC2 contest seems to be doing well aside from the obvious 'OMG you just want people to go to your site' stuff that happens. As for anymore outside help than that, I'm not sure. The Nibbits affiliation for example was one I had issue with because of my experience at their site. Even if that isn't nice or easy, I feel they were valid concerns, as it could happen to other members as well. If the response had been 'Yeah Ex, that sucks I wonder if zeeg is going to fix these problems' instead of 'Wow Ex what's your problem? Why can't you just bury any concerns you have to make things easy?' which I think was the wrong attitude. Perhaps I was a bit too hostile about it, but I don't think the other extreme of ignoring those problems was right either.

I seriously doubt that the layout of the site will affect our SC2 status. Sure nice is nice to have, but it's really the core functionality that matters: people getting help on the Assistance forum, people finding maps they need in the DLDB, finding the assistance article they need, ect, and how easy it is to use these functions.



If I may add my own two cents, this is what made SEN great: the assistance forum, the tutorials/reference articles, the DLDB, and most importantly, the people who actually made maps here.

If you guys really want to be great on SC2, this is what you should do: stop freaking out over Corbo's post. Sure, it'd be nice to have a PR guy, but that won't make SEN the premier SC2 site. Instead, start building what really matters: the maps, the tutorials, the reference articles, and the rest of the knowledge base that was SEN on SCI. Knowledge is power, no? Besides, SC2 isn't even out yet. Sure Mapster might have a head start on us, but we're still at T minus 77 days and counting till liftoff, and after that we could have years.

Who will be the first great Mapmaker on SC2? If he comes to SEN, whatever headstart Mapster had will vanish instantly, and likewise if he goes to their site, only then will I consider us far behind in SC2 terms. So, I say let's stop freaking out, and show this first great mapper how mature and knowledgeable we are, and I think he would choose SEN.

There should be a SEN account on youtube that all the GMods and Admins have access to. If someone wants to submit a video, they send the video to said admin/gmod to be approved and posted on YouTube.

I'd be happy to run a SEN Youtube channel, as I did those melee videos and have some experience with it. I'm not sure if we could allow all Gmods access but certainly the administration would have oversight of such a thing.

That's a good idea C.

Well she's never gonna come her with that sexist attitude!

This. I don't even have my own computer and I contribute more than many people here. I've barely started building the Modeling/Artwork area of the forum, yet it's further ahead than almost any set of tutorials or reference that we've had. I advertise SEN the best I can(can't do much right now ) and am planning on writing several tutorials. And I consider myself a lowly member of SEN! Why haven't people that a) have computers and b) have sc2 started DOING MORE THAN ME FOR SEN?

Why don't we just come up with good maps and ask the creators to mention the site URL? Worked wonders with temple siege and now people go to OP SEN for their temple sieging needs. Easy money.

Please explain.. what IS it that makes SEN so special? I mean this has been your best argument so far, yet you provide no solid conclusion. What I see is that sc2mapster have videos, reviews, maps, and a huge influx of members. What I see is that nibbits have streams, and shit ton of maps. They each have their own problems, but by comparing them to us, without any sentimental values, we are merely a small site with nothing but sc1 history. Problem is, not many people care about SC1 anymore.

And your ideals of a correct staff and correct staff responsibilities are evidently skewed – Many people dislike you here, and you’re continually doing whatever you think is right. You say I’m glorified, but I say you’re domineering, oppressive, and egotistic. In fact, I’m sure a lot of people think the same.

The point isn’t about who’s going to be PR, it isn’t about me taking shots at you (and seriously… lighten up, we didn’t mean anything. No need to respond to every shot we fire at you). It’s about actually doing something. We’d much rather see you post about things that can be done. All you’re saying is this, “Nope, we can’t do this because all of you are too noob to do so”. Get off your high throne and look at your kingdom. It is in shambles. We’re about to be taken over by two big leaders named zeeg and sixen. And you’re just going to sit here on your giant chancellor seat and say we’re not going to do anything about this ‘till we find the perfect person who we can all have a nice session Friday nights at the pub? Lemme say this again: this is a Critical Time.

Screw all this SEN-root mumbo jumbo. WTF would it all mean after all? Look at Clan (U), Clan Mp), Clan Oo, Clan Chef, Clan O, and Maplantis. See what I mean? We can have as much history and “special”ness as we want, but if we don’t keep up, we will be left behind to die.

---

I wrote that after reading Ex’s post after devourer’s… I haven’t read anything else yet

O shit!

Oh wait, we all know it's gonna be a dude anyway.

If it's a girl, I'll eat my hat. No offence to the ladies, but they're outnumbered like, OVER 9000 : 1, so I'm not worried

Agreed with Corbo, and IP, and Devilesk, and JaFF, and CAFG, etc.

I'm helping IP with minor advertising of his contest, but most responses I've received are negative (hopefully the 'silent majority' will still try). I'm not committed enough to SEN to do much more than that (in a world where I'm still banned from a forum and most of the administration supports the ban, I'm not even going to try). I gave IP some ideas on continuous development, but a PR campaign like what Corbo suggested can only help out. I'll reiterate my ideas here in public; I think I've stuck most of them in the Staff forum previously (Yarr, IP gave me access because I was so helpful ).

Make the Wiki a separate entity from SEN. That means it'll still be tied to SEN, it'll still be considered a SEN-run wiki which we'll link to just like now and which will link back to us, but it'll have it's own domain, all that. This will do the following: Help make the wiki a trans-community resource and people from other communities will contribute, because it's not as attached to SEN as it would be otherwise. It would help in google, because it'll have it's own domain. I remember having another argument for it, but this is basically it. Additionally, if Yoshi's up for it, we can try to convince him to let us use HIS Wiki as ours. It'll be our separated Wiki, complete with Yoshi's and several of our skins, somewhat connected to SEN (I believe Yoshi has a nice domain name too), hosted on our server, and we'll give Yoshi access. Because we all trust Yoshi.

Monthly mapping contests like the one we're currently holding, funded, if necessary, by ads on the right side of the wiki (the 100x500 size ads, you know them) or somewhere on SEN. I believe Zeeg is offering IP financial support, but if this'll help us break $100 a month, it'll be worth it. We'll host monthly contests which will increase in popularity every month, more and more people will contribute to our wiki, and eventually they'll be drawn in to try SEN and will stay in part because our Wiki will be best. Basically, I think our path to largeness is through our Wiki.

Excaliber, if you want SEN to be your personal chew-toy, good luck with that. If you do your best to keep it small and keep from affiliating and doing whatever else is needed, SENners themselves will leave. If we don't expand, we'll shrink.

UU, I'm leaving out the parts of your post that are off topic, so excuse me if I miss anything you wanted addressed.

I call no man king. My king is a furry antler-headed moose who was born old and grew down.

I was talking to Symmetry on MSN and he asked me what exactly my vision is for SEN since I've been saying 'no not like that' and 'no don't do this':

Right now I'm on hold because of my motherboard on my i7 rigg being dead. But I have plans for what I'm going to do for SEN, and what I think every other SENner with a capable computer should be doing. After all the people who came to me asking for computer designs that could handle SC2, I expected a good lot more of them contributing something.

I don't want to worry about what Mapster and Nibbits are doing. I want to worry about what SEN's doing. I don't want to affiliate with them, but I'll gladly throw my advertisement on their forums. If they want to leave it there is up to them. Competition is what has always led SC sites to improvement. We don't need to be hostile but we cannot be so intertwined that we make the sites interchangeable. SEN's history and legacy should be something we use and say that no other site can offer. It is the one thing we have no one can ever duplicate. We should be proud and hold our heads high and say that not only have we conquered SC1 but SC2 shall be another conquest and we shall be the best, attract the best, host the best, and endeavor to be the best in any and all areas of the game.

As for the positions: I want DevliN as our community admin, and I want Yoshi as our PR admin. Neither of them have said no, nor have they said yes. Should we accept a lesser man who would say yes quicker? I say no. But you might say yes. That might just be an area where we disagree.

Chew toy Cent? What?
I'm not trying to keep SEN small. I'm trying to keep SEN from being Nibbits in terms of quality control. If we can manage proper QC at a size at or greater than Nibbits, then lets do it. I'm just trying to make sure we can handle the amount of growth we're going after. Lets not bite off more than we can chew.

Edit: And Cent, you spelled my name wrong! You bastard!

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on May 11 2010, 8:34 pm by Excalibur.

I don't know what possible downsides there can be to rapid growth. Zeeg is offering us publicity on the largest SCII map website and is apparently even offering to help IP pay for the contests. I'm definitely not going to let a little distaste for their lack of moderation get in the way of that. Nibbits, get over here.

Can't we compromise Cent? Can't Nibbits step up its moderation or quality control a little bit? I don't think that's too much to ask.

You can ask. If they don't, neither me or IP will say no to continuing the partnership nevertheless.

Well we don't have to say no, but we should play hardball. Be shrewd negotiators and all that. You know, make it like 'Well hey this moderation and QC issue is a big deal man we want some changes here', I would think you one who'd like some shrewd negotiating Cent. And I don't even think we'll have to push, zeeg would probably be willing to discuss it. IP should talk to him about it. Its worth a shot at least.

I agree with this. When map making clans were huge, the best advertising for them was a quality map plastered with the clan name. Everyone I knew who wanted to make amazing maps was dying to be in (U) back in the day because (U) churned out great maps. If we're able to make great SC2 maps and put SEN on them, that would be the best possible advertising we can ask for.

I don't think we're going to score more active members by advertising SEN on other forums. If anything, I think that makes us look worse. I know the idea is to promote map making and SC2 knowledge, but it seems like we're out to poach. I'm grateful to IP for putting up cash for this contest, but as some other non-SEN forumers have stated, it looks like we're trying to buy people.

For SC1, SEN was a godsend. I am more nostalgic than most when it comes to the TeamSE days (which I bet 99% of SEN has no idea what that refers to) and the start of SEN, but unfortunately I feel like we have to treat this like a start of a new era and build SEN from the ground up. Despite all our differences, we need everyone to come together and help SEN again. The more I think about it, I think it's great that devilesk is willing to help us right now after being banned countless times, and appreciate the effort he is making to contribute to SEN. Despite going out with a giant shitstorm, I can appreciate Corbo's return to put in his two cents and show that he does actually care about SEN.

We're all here for a common goal: the success of SEN. Fighting and bickering about it solves nothing right now, and considering how much inter-Staff fights are breaking out it looks like we're imploding. I've always been a fan of the varying opinions of our Staff members because frankly if we all agreed on everything, we'd be worse off. This, however, is not the best way to deal with this issue. Let's not forget that SC2 still hasn't been released, and there could be a surge of activity once it is. For now, our best bet is to keep contributing to the wiki, coming up with awesome new concepts, and being as innovative as SEN once was.