"Now, how could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law? How could there be a law save there was a punishment? Now, there was a punishment affixed, and a just law given, which brought remorse of conscience unto man. ... But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimetth; otherwise, justice cuteth the law, and the law inflicted the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God. But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice." (Alma 42:17-18, 22-23)

I'm curious. Where exactly are you getting all this? I've never heard of such a text. Ah, the Book of Mormon. Mkay. You were right to suspect that I wouldn't think your sources credible. I'm not really sure what to discuss about, so the floor is yours. First though. What sources do you use as your texts for your belief? If that makes any sense.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/contents

Alma would be found in the Book of Mormon, and D&C would be Doctrine and Covenants.

Other references: Revelation 20:12-13, James 1:25, and 1 John 3:4

Edit: "What sources do you use as your texts for your belief?" I use the King James Version of the Bible, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and any of the words by the latter-day Apostles and Prophets (when spoken in accordance with scripture).

So tell me what you believe exactly Fwop. If you would be so inclined. I myself am a Baptist- I use the KJV Bible as the basis for all my beliefs. That is just about all I can say to describe my belief system. I'm curious as to who I'm discussing with

Refer to my edit in the previous post for the texts I reference and believe.

Honestly, to just dive into exactly what I believe may take longer than wanted. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe we are the same church that Jesus Christ established during his time on earth. As stated in Amos 8:11 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, there had to be a "falling away first" and a "famine... of hearing the words of Christ," and this happened shortly after the twelve Apostles were killed. I believe we have the same Priesthood that was granted to Adam, Enoch, Joseph, Moses, Peter, James, John, and all other prophets as mentioned in the Bible and we use that Priesthood (the authority to act in God's name) to run Christ's Church today.

I didn't know where your references came from until I googled your past post. I understand a little more now.

Okay. I didn't need too much. So I have a question. Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?

I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, as so many scriptures attest. He is the second member of the Godhead (the first being God Himself and the third being the Holy Ghost) and was with the Father in the pre-existence. I believe he was sent to the earth as a ransom for sin; to make it possible for all to return to God in Heaven.

Okay. So you do believe Jesus Christ is God? As when I John 5:7 says "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

I don't want to get in a debate over the concept of the Trinity, but when references such as "these three are one" and "I and my Father are One" these are referring to the Godhead. They are one in purpose, to bring about the immortality and eternal life in man (Moses 1:39). The scriptures that refer to a three-in-one essence are not to be taken in the literal sense. All throughout the Gospels Jesus Christ makes mention of his Father in Heaven, that he was sent by the Father, and is to do the will of the Father.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 14 2009, 5:11 am by Fwop_. Reason: typo

Okay. No debate. I'll leave off with just a couple verses. You seem well-versed so you've probably heard them before. First of all John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word {Jesus}, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Why would it say he WAS God if he wasn't God? Also Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." God speaks to the Son, and calls him God.

Also as you know Matthew 4:10 "Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou worship." So if we worship Jesus, he either must be God, or we are sinning. He must be God, I believe. God commands the worship of Jesus, Hebrews 1:6 "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world {Jesus}, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." There can only be one God - Mark 12:29-30 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."

Edit: Goodnight

Lastly Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born {Jesus}, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." I believe it is talking about Jesus Christ here. A prophecy of his birth. I believe even one of the Gospels reiterates it. It calls him "The might God" when there is only 1 God as I've stated before. He is called "The everlasting Father" which is the Trinity, as you seem to already know about it.

I know you don't want debate, that is understandable, but if you're going to debate/discuss over other things you might as well have a time at it on something that is the meat of Christianity. I'll leave that up to you though.

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 14 2009, 5:24 am by Encore. Reason: Sleepy eyes, busy morning.

from my limited understanding of mormonism, it seems like Christianity with logic forcefully injected into it. This, at the cost of further biblical inward contradiction(ie Jesus not being God). I might have given it a chance if it wasn't so money-oriented, and Joseph Smith being so terribly flawed.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 14 2009, 5:45 am by ClansAreForGays. Reason: surely not to correct a spelling error

You mean Joseph Smith?

yes, that is what I said..... shouldn't you be asleep

I'm fine with a discussion, as I can clearly see you are doing.

Does it not say in St John 17:21 "that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that world may believe that thou hast sent me," implying that not only Christ is in the Father (the Godhead, three distinct personages) but that we may also be in the Father? If Jesus Christ is in the Father, couldn't he himself be considered a God? Didn't he live a perfect life, and isn't one of his goals for us is to have us made "perfect in one" (St John 17:23)? I have other questions for you: To whom does Christ pray? If he himself is God, as you say, is it necessary that he pray to himself? Or when he was baptized, who is the voice from heaven?

Also in Hebrews 1, Jesus inherited a more excellent name than the angels (Verse 4) and is in the "express image of his person" (Verse 3) agreeing with his words, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." (St John 14:9). I do not find, in these scriptures, that Jesus Christ is literally God, but that they are distinct, one in purpose and glory.

@Clans, I assume you have a problem with the Law of Tithes. Many do, but those who keep the law have found blessings come from their sacrifices. I wouldn't necessarily call the church "money-oriented" but rather the members are actually willing to give up what they own for the benefit of all members, especially for those who are incapable of making a sustainable living. And what about Joseph Smith makes him so terribly flawed? Everyone makes mistakes, and he is no different. I don't think, if he was terribly flawed, that he could have done the work that was assigned to him. Without him, the Church of Christ would not have been restored and (I believe) the people would not have access to the saving ordinances that have been established from the foundation of the world.

Well then the Trinity does need explaining then. Jesus Christ IS God, but he is also the Son of God. They are three separate parsonages who are one in the same. As in Jesus is at the right hand of God, God is on the throne in Heaven, and the Holy Spirit is indwelling in believers. They are all three God, but they are also separate. As it said in John 5:7 there are three, but these three are one.

Christ prayed to God, and it was God's voice that was heard. As an answer to your question. As to why Jesus prayed instead of doing it himself. I'll think on that.

Let me ask you a question. I have the scriptures already quoted in my last post, but I'll put them in again. Why is it alright to worship Jesus? If Jesus is not God, then worship of him would be sin. I can take you to many scriptures in the New Testament where Jesus was worshiped. I'll take you to Hebrews though: Hebrews 1:6b "And let all the angels of God worship him." The angels worshiping someone other than God? Wouldn't that be like what happened to Lucifer? I know Lucifer lifted himself up, instead of being lifted up by God, but Jesus told Satan Luke 4:8 "Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." So if God is only to be worshiped why was it alright for all the people who were healed, and many other people, to worship Jesus Christ. God is a God that does not change, and he wouldn't just say "Well now it's alright if you worship someone other than me." (As proof of God not changing - Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I change not;")

Second question - Why would John 1:1 say the Word was God, if he wasn't God?

@Shocko So people who believe in Evolution never argue? They never discuss what they believe to better understand things? This is how people learn. Science has just as much arguing and discussion as anything else. I was just going to ignore your posts, but I couldn't help but ask.

p.s. I'm not a Mormon, and our church believes in Tithes, based on Malachi 3:10, and a few other verses.

Post has been edited 2 time(s), last time on Feb 14 2009, 5:17 pm by Encore.

from dictionary.com.
No end or conclusion. I think they would've worded it differently when translated if it meant boundless.

Yes it's a shame. But does that automatically rule out god's existence?
No but i believe the documentary actually may wake a few people and go, hmm maybe he's right...

How can Jesus Christ be the Father and the Son? How can all three--God the Father, Jesus Christ his Son, and the Holy Spirit--be, literally, one being when all three are present at Jesus' baptism? How are they "one in the same" when, how you proceeded to explain them, they are not one in the same? They are only one God in the sense that they are the same in purposes, in powers, and in perfections, in no way implying they are a single person.


I have a speech for you, given by Bruce R. McConkie, that should be of interest to you and should answer your questions regarding worship and many of things which Christ did and said: Our Relationship with the Lord

Other interesting reads (mp3 formats are also available of the speech): The Mystery of Godliness, What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace?

To answer your questions, we do not worship Jesus Christ. We revere him and are in gratitude for his infinite atonement for us, in this sense we "worship" him. But "worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator" (from the 1st link). I encourage you to read especially "Our Relationship with the Lord" as Elder McConkie goes into great depth this doctrine.


@Anonymous: "The revealed word to Joseph Smith announces that endless torment does not last forever, and that eternal damnation is of limited duration. In spite of the plain meaning of words, the divine word is that eternal punishment and endless punishment do in fact have an end." (Bruce R. McConkie, "The Mystery of Godliness")

Regarding the trinity.

This article in a nutshell is saying that all three members of the Trinity are different, but have the same purpose. For example, a book has length, width, and thickness. The length is not the book’s width, the width is not the book’s thickness. These three dimensions can be described separately, yet they are connected together. If you remove one dimension, you are no longer describing a book. In the same way, the Godhead has three separate members that are connected together, and if you try to remove one you no longer have the Godhead. And then they go on into even more about the relations one member has with another and/or the other two

And this one too

Post has been edited 1 time(s), last time on Feb 15 2009, 4:57 am by MillenniumArmy.

I'm sorry, just as God existing in three separate beings but being 1 being at the same time doesn't make sense to you it does not make any sense to me what you just said. Worship is always reverence, and gratitude. Dictionary definition of Worship: 1- Reverence toward a divine being or supernatural power. 2- expression of reverence 3- extravagant respect or devotion. Listen to my point again. Jesus said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." That was a command. Worship only the Lord your God, and also don't forget that there is only one Lord. It says to worship only God, so how can you justify worshiping anyone else? I'll read that thing, but I am really becoming kind of confused on your side of the discussion. Please have patience I'm not trying to be thick-headed I'm just having trouble understanding.

As for verses where Jesus was worshiped: Mt 2:11, Mt 8:2, Mt 9:18, Mt 14:33, Mt 15:25, Mt 28:9, Mt 28:17, Mk 5:6, Lk 24:52, Jn 9:38 You said you do not worship Jesus, but here are not only people who were healed, but the disciples worshiping at Jesus' feet.I keep feeling like you're going to think I'm a jerk for persisting, but you seem to be contradictory in your argument when you say "We don't worship Jesus, we reverence him." Jesus is supposed to be worshiped. God commanded the angels to worship him, and Jesus never rebuked people for worshiping him on this earth.

You have yet to answer my second question Fwop.